Question about Purgatory

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Cavaradossi said:
In what sense do you mean in Heaven?
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Your thoughts:

“If a man distinguish in himself what is peculiarly human from that which is irrational, and if he be on the watch for a life of greater urbanity for himself, in this present life he will purify himself of any evil contracted, overcoming the irrational by reason. If he has inclined to the irrational pressure of the passions, using for the passions the cooperating hide of things irrational, he may afterward in a quite different manner be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire” (Sermon on the Dead [A.D. 382]). Gregory of Nyssa
 
Purgatory - my personal knowledge - through Dear Our Lady Mary Mother of Jesus

A person’s Soul knows when there are sins outstanding and/or addictions remaining to be ‘purged’, healed, exited while in Purgatory, before one’s Soul is able to decide and acknowledge it is sufficiently ‘clean and pure’ to ask for God’s entry into Heaven.

Another reason for a Priest to deliver one’s Last Rites when ill or dying and for one to be attending Reconciliation regularly of course.

Another reason for all People on Earth to pray for all of their Family members, friends, colleagues and everyone they know, who has died. Many Souls have swum in Purgatory for years and years without anyone praying for them to be released while we lived our lives in ignorance.

Jesus died for us all to eliminate as much sin as possible and countless other reasons; leaving His Divine Holy Commandments, teaching us to Forgive, Pray and live our lives according to His Scriptures.

This is the reason Our Lady Mary Mother of Jesus advocates the Catholic Religion followings; The Popes are chosen by God and Jesus throughout the ages, in which they (Popes) do their best to follow Jesus teachings and educate in God’s Love, Wisdom and goodness to the World.

This is the reason we must pray for all of God’s chosen Apostles now and for Eternity.
 
Other man made religions and deviations of God and Jesus original Scriptures (Holy Words and Teachings), is my response to your query regarding religious beliefs relating to sins forgiven and purgatory.

Love and blessings
 
joe370 said:
That quote of his reveals that a person who builds with straw…etc… his works will be burned up, but he will continue on burning in hell. That makes no sense in light of the following: But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.
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You are free to call St. John Chrysostom illogical if you wish:
  1. He calls it, however, “Salvation,” you will say; why, that is the cause of his adding, “so as by fire:” since we also used to say, “It is preserved in the fire,” when we speak of those substances which do not immediately burn up and become ashes. For do not at sound of the word fire imagine that those who are burning pass into annihilation. And though he call such punishment Salvation, be not astonished. For his custom is in things which have an ill sound to use fair expressions, and in good things the contrary. For example, the word “Captivity” seems to be the name of an evil thing, but Paul has applied it in a good sense, when he says, “Bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.” 2 Corinthians 10:5 And again, to an evil thing he has applied a good word, saying, “Sin reigned,” Romans 5:21 here surely the term “reigning” is rather of auspicious sound. And so here in saying, “he shall be saved,” he has but darkly hinted at the intensity of the penalty: as if he had said, “But himself shall remain forever in punishment.”
newadvent.org/fathers/220109.htm
 
joe370 said:
Your thoughts:

“If a man distinguish in himself what is peculiarly human from that which is irrational, and if he be on the watch for a life of greater urbanity for himself, in this present life he will purify himself of any evil contracted, overcoming the irrational by reason. If he has inclined to the irrational pressure of the passions, using for the passions the cooperating hide of things irrational, he may afterward in a quite different manner be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire” (Sermon on the Dead [A.D. 382]). Gregory of Nyssa
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My thoughts are that you probably pulled that from a tract or florilegium on purgatory. I would like to see the greater context of that quote, or at least a citation to where it can be found in (is it in the PG, for instance), instead of just seeing it used as a prooftext. It could be related, for example, to St. Gregory of Nyssa’s constant flirtation with universal reconciliation, in which case it has very little to do with purgatory as the Roman Catholics understand it.
 
joe370 said:
I think he means simply, in God’s presence, like Mary, something you do not believe because, as you mentioned and believe, human souls, other than our mother Mary, have yet to receive their glorified bodies, and therefore do not enjoy the same privileges.
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I never said that the dead are not in the presence of God, simply that they cannot experience that presence fully because they lack bodies.
 
ajecphotos said:
I have a mind of my own. Am I not allowed to deviate or look at what I read in a different view than that which the Catholic Church prints?
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Certainly. You have free will.
Is everything they say written in stone not to be changed slightly etc?
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Doctrine? No. Faith & Morals? No.
Didn’t The Jews complain to Jesus that they didn’t want to deviate from the written Jewish law? They didn’t want to derail their beliefs in anyway. They were not open to other views. They didn’t want to believe Jesus
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If you don’t follow the Church …of which Christ is the head…then you too don’t fully trust & believe Jesus.
I am not saying that I don’t believe what the church has written. I am just throwing my thoughts into the bowl, so to speak!
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You can’t have it both ways. You either believe the Church…and in this case the teachings on particular judgement or you have your own thoughts…throw them into the bowl if you’d like. Consuming and believing your own thoughts…is well…like drinking the Kool-Aid.

Ajec - do you believe Jesus established the Catholic Church…and that the Holy Spirit was sent to the Church to guide it to all truth? It’s a yes or no question… :confused:
 
Cavaradossi said:
My thoughts are that you probably pulled that from a tract or florilegium on purgatory. I would like to see the greater context of that quote, or at least a citation to where it can be found in (is it in the PG, for instance), instead of just seeing it used as a prooftext. It could be related, for example, to St. Gregory of Nyssa’s constant flirtation with universal reconciliation, in which case it has very little to do with purgatory as the Roman Catholics understand it.
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I will fnd it. Even with the greater context, he still said - "…he may afterward in a quite different manner be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire."
 
Cavaradossi said:
My thoughts are that you probably pulled that from a tract or florilegium on purgatory. I would like to see the greater context of that quote, or at least a citation to where it can be found in (is it in the PG, for instance), instead of just seeing it used as a prooftext. It could be related, for example, to St. Gregory of Nyssa’s constant flirtation with universal reconciliation, in which case it has very little to do with purgatory as the Roman Catholics understand it.
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Still looking for the following: Citation: Gregory of Nyssa, Sermon on the Dead, PG 13:445,448 (ante A.D. 394).

When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil."
 
joe370 said:
I will fnd it. Even with the greater context, he still said - "…he may afterward in a quite different manner be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire."
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Right, but this needs to be read in the greater context of his works. Particularly, there are other passages where he uses the same comparison of God to a refiner’s fire (Malachi 3), specifically even referencing separating the dross from the gold. His thought in other similar passages which I have read in context differs rather greatly from purgatory, sharing only the imagery of cleansing fire (which he bases in scripture), but not really the same theology behind it, especially because there is a certain universalist tendency (i.e., in St. Gregory’s thought, it seems more like all will be subjected to this cleansing and not only those who die in a state of grace) tends to run through his thought, which is likely an Origenist influence.
 
Cavaradossi said:
Right, but this needs to be read in the greater context of his works. Particularly, there are other passages where he uses the same comparison of God to a refiner’s fire (Malachi 3), specifically even referencing separating the dross from the gold. His thought in other similar passages which I have read in context differs rather greatly from purgatory, sharing only the imagery of cleansing fire (which he bases in scripture), but not really the same theology behind it, especially because there is a certain universalist tendency (i.e., in St. Gregory’s thought, it seems more like all will be subjected to this cleansing and not only those who die in a state of grace) tends to run through his thought, which is likely an Origenist influence.
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Those in heaven are in no need of our prayers and those in hell, sadly, cannot benefit. With that said, would you agree that the ancient Churches (as does the EOC and CC today) prayed for those who had died, believing that their prayers could (can) in some way help them i.e. facilitate their progression in terms of theosis?
 
joe370 said:
Those in heaven are in no need of our prayers and those in hell, sadly, cannot benefit. With that said, would you agree that the ancient Churches (as does the EOC and CC today) prayed for those who had died, believing that their prayers could (can) in some way help them i.e. facilitate their progression in terms of theosis?
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Yes. You must understand that the Orthodox rejection of purgatory is very specific.
 
Cavaradossi said:
Yes. You must understand that the Orthodox rejection of purgatory is very specific.
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I suppose my answer to the op is: Catholics do not teach/believe that after one has been forgiven by God something additional remains to be paid for; that simply is not the case. Catholics do in fact believe that Jesus paid the price in total.
 
I believe that the thinking often reflects the Apostle Paul…“If the work which any man has built on the foundation [which is Christ] survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3: 14-15).

Human description limited to human understanding.
 
“Each damages others besides the sinner and thus requires a “pay-back”. Even though the sin irself has been forgiven and forgotten this Temporal Debt remains and must be payd for.”

In my view there is no Temporal Debt in Our Lady Mary Mother of Jesus’ view. Once a Child of Christ has repented and Penance fulfilled (via a Priest) forgiveness is completed (if guilt is shed disallowing satan to re-visit on that particular sin(s).

Temporal debt is an earthly thought process (karma stuff) created in the mind stemming from guilt which satan works through to tempt us to re-visit the original sin that satan hopes is re-committed via thought processes of Karma, temporal debt (of the original sin forgiven by God during Reconciliation).

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth. I believe in Jesus Christ His only Son our Lord. He was conceived by the Power of The Holy Spirit and was born of The Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate was crucified died and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the Third day He rose again. He ascended into Heaven and is seated at the Right Hand of The Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead and His Kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, The Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, the Communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the Resurrection of the Body and life everlasting, Amen.
 
Porknpie said:
Ajec - do you believe Jesus established the Catholic Church…and that the Holy Spirit was sent to the Church to guide it to all truth? It’s a yes or no question… :confused:
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Yes, i do believe that Jesus established his church and that the holy spirit is a massive part of it. Whether the church as it is today is what he would have been aiming for is another matter! A lot has happened in the last 2k years.
 
ajecphotos said:
Yes, i do believe that Jesus established his church
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Ajec…wonderful. A point of agreement. :gopray2:
and that the holy spirit is a massive part of it.
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ok
Whether the church as it is today is what he would have been aiming for is another matter! A lot has happened in the last 2k years.
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. Ok Ajec…you did not answer the second part of the question. :banghead:
.and that the Holy Spirit was sent to the Church to guide it to all truth?
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Do you believe this? Yes…or…no…?
 
Porknpie said:
Ajec…wonderful. A point of agreement. :gopray2:

ok

. Ok Ajec…you did not answer the second part of the question. :banghead:

Do you believe this? Yes…or…no…?
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It’s either “all truth” as per scripture, or a “massive” part of it, as per Ajecphotos. Must side with scripture which states: all truth…John 16:13:thumbsup:
 
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