Question about remarriage

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Atomic

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Hi everyone, I’m new. Thanks for taking the time to read my post.

I am protestant, and have been married and divorced twice. First marriage in a church, second marriage was a civil service.

In the future I hope to marry my catholic sweetheart. He is divorced and his marriage has been annulled.

I take it that my civil service marriage isn’t recognised by the catholic church, but I’m not sure if I need to do anything about my first marriage - or isn’t that recognised either.

He feels very strongly about family and faith, and we are talking of having children so it is a given that these children will be raised in the catholic faith. I don’t have a problem converting, it is important to me that we have a strong and solid foundation on which to build our lives.

So at this point, is there anything I need to do about my prior marriages?

Oh and I wanted to add that I take relationships very seriously, and if I get married again, this will be the last time. Unfortunately, others don’t always take them so seriously.
 
Atomic said:
So at this point, is there anything I need to do about my prior marriages?
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Yes, prior marriages will both need to be examined-- there are many items that will need to be examined. The best place to start is to make an appointment with the parish priest, lay out all the facts, and let him guide you.

I do recommend that you obtain a copy of Michael Smith Foster’s book Annulment: The Wedding That Was which explains the Catholic teaching on marriage and the nullity process in a very easy-to-read format.
 
Your second marriage can be taken care of by “A Declaration of Nullity by Defect of Form” which is a simple process. As for your first marriage in a Church I cannot find a definite answer for this so the best thing is to see the local priest.
 
the general rule is that your first marriage is considered valid (provided you were both free to marry, no previous marriages or other impediments etc.) does not matter if it was in a church or civil, as long as neither party was Catholic

if you seek to marry a Catholic, who is bound by Catholic marriage laws, you must have all previous marriages investigated by the canon law tribunal to determine if you are in fact now free to marry.

not enough info, and no way to gather it on this forum

there is a multi-page interview form to determine the relevant facts, ie baptismal status of all partners of all previous marriages, their marital history, and most important, conditions that pertained at the time of the union that might invalidate.

see the pastor of your Catholic partner’s parish so he can guide you with this process. She cannot marry you in her Faith until it is determined that you are free to marry
 
Thank you everybody for your help. I’m slowly getting to the bottom of this.

Atomic
 
Atomic,

Go to the forum just under the one here Protestants and divorce that explanation may help you more
 
Thank you c659 - I’ll go and check it out. Still finding my way around here. 🙂
 
ricko said:
Your second marriage can be taken care of by “A Declaration of Nullity by Defect of Form” which is a simple process. As for your first marriage in a Church I cannot find a definite answer for this so the best thing is to see the local priest.
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This is NOT correct.

The OP is not a Catholic, and therefore is not bound by the Catholic form of marriage-- defect of form does not apply to her.

The entire situation will need to be examined, first the original marriage and then the second marriage.

I encourage the OP to please go see a priest.
 
1Ke

I agree this person should seek counseling and direction from a Priest.

However the rule is “2 baptised Christians” and if one does from the Protestant Faith has been Baptised with water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as the Bible teaches we then do not re-baptise that individual when converting and becoming a Catholic.

Remember Baptism formally in the Catholic Church does not need to be done by a Priest and any layity in an emergecy sick/dying can baptise and is binding. For instance a Deacon can Formally Baptise and a Deacon can formally preside as witness at a wedding.

The Sacraments of Baptism and Matrimony is the one whom is receiving the Sacraments vow to God all other are witnesses. That is my understanding from reading the Canon. Holy Communion, Pennance, Confirmation, Holy Orders, Blessing of the sick is the priest or Bishop.

Saint Paul Baptised others before being accepted into the Church.

Remember unlike many Protestant Faiths we believe in one Baptism for the forgiveness of Sins.
 
Atomic,

Before there is any possibility for you to marry in the Catholic Church, it will be necessary for the Church to examine both of those marriages and to establish your freedom to marry validly and lawfully according to the Church.

The exact process will depend on a number of factors and precise details. It would be difficult for anyone, with or without expertise in Catholic marriage law, to diagnose your particular situation over the internet. It would also be unhelpful to you, and a discussion on this thread is liable to create more confusion than illumination (and I say that as a canonist in a tribunal myself).

The most prudent advice that can be given, is to suggest that you contact a Catholic priest in your area or your “intended” 's parish priest, and explain fully all the details of those marriages and the parties who were involved. He will be in a position to answer your questions and to determine what needs to be done.

Please be aware, though, no one can guarantee that you will be found free to marry. That will depend on the outcome of the Church’s examination based on the particular facts of those marriages and Church law. But make that contact as soon as possible and trust in God.
 
For if we say that this is not a valid marriage then a protestant couple converting into the Catholic Church and going through R.C.I.A. would not be allowed to have sexual relations as the Marriage is not valid. Plus is one to say that this couple then must be re-married. It can be done but is not necessary.

Remember the Catholic Catholic Church witnesses as a Sacramental marriage within the Catholic Church but does not make any less valid another Marriage within the Christian Community of those that are Baptised and making their committment before God.

Now if a Catholic was to marry outside the Catholic Church and in a Protestant Church then the Catholic is not in Communion with the Catholic Church but it does not make the marriage invalid.

I am not a priest, not a theolgian but this is my understanding from reading the Canon.

I will always recommend that one go see a priest and or Bishop though for this type of advice and ruling.
 
As it has been suggested, the OP needs to contact a priest.

With all due respect and good will, it is somewhat fruitless and unhelpful to speculate on what might or might be the case, since fundamental facts are not known and not likely to be revealed in a systematic way on an internet forum.

Nothing is known about the baptismal status of the two parties to the original marriage. That one is a Protestant does not mean of necessity that the person is baptised, and it cannot be presumed.

Nothing is known of the religious affiliation of the other party to the original marriage or even any prior marital history for that person.

Nothing is known about any prior marital history or baptismal status of the poster’s second husband.

Until all of that is cleared up, there is no way of telling what must be done, and there may be other twists and turns. So I think it best not to speculate.

For general information purposes, two points should be clarified regarding marriage law.

“Now if a Catholic was to marry outside the Catholic Church and in a Protestant Church then the Catholic is not in Communion with the Catholic Church but it does not make the marriage invalid.”

It does invalidate the marriage unless a dispensation from canonical form was given or unless an exception in law existed (see canon 1108 on this and the references to excepting canons, and canon 1117).

Should the other party be non baptized, albeit Protestant, a dispensation from disparity of cult would also be needed for validity, unless an exception in law existed (c. 1086, c. 1117.)

“For if we say that this is not a valid marriage then a protestant couple converting into the Catholic Church and going through R.C.I.A. would not be allowed to have sexual relations as the Marriage is not valid. Plus is one to say that this couple then must be re-married. It can be done but is not necessary.”

I have no idea what is being said here, but am not comfortable with it. The parish priest would have to look into any particular case before proceeding with a validation, depending on circumstances. If validation is needed, it must be done. If validation is not needed, it cannot be done. “Can” but “not necessary” is not an option.
 
Cameron,

You are agreeining with what I am saying.

The key word here is two Baptised Christians married befor God.
with water in the name of the Father, son, and Holy Spirit. If not Baptised then other rules take affect.

As far as a fully baptised Catholic not being married in the Catholic Church but in a Protestant Church to another baptised Christian and their vows were made before God if both do not agree with the divorce you would have a snow balls chance in South Florida that this would be annuled and mainly puts the Catholic out of comminion with the Catholic Church.

Again it is not One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church for the forgiveness of sins but one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

And of course one once again should ultimately see a Priest and or Bishop when requesting such an annulment as I stated in previous post.

See below for the rule to start with

A marriage entered into by two non-baptized persons is dissolved by means of the Pauline privilege in favor of the faith of the party who has received baptism by the very fact that a new marriage is contracted by the same party, provided that the non-baptized party departs. (CIC 1143)

Marriages not yet ratified through consummation are treated similarly:
For a just cause, the Roman pontiff can dissolve a non-consummated marriage between baptized persons or between a baptized party and a non-baptized party at the request of both parties or of one of them, even if the other party is unwilling. (CIC 1142)

Annulments are sometimes mistakenly called “Catholic divorces.” In reality, annulments do not presume to end marriages at all but simply recognize and declare, after sufficient investigation, that a marriage never existed in the first place. If a marriage never really existed, then there is nothing to dissolve. Such situations can come about for one (or more) of three reasons: lack of sufficient capacity, failure to adequately consent, or violation of canonical form.

If you read further cannoical form is two Baptised Christians making their vows before God.
The vows are then between them and God not Them and the Catholic Church
However between a Catholic and Non-Catholic but both Baptised and married iin a Protestant Church having Baptism as a necessity for salvation and before God.
a Catholic should not attend or witness as the Catholic being married is coming out of communion with the Catholisc Church. and our paticipation in such a service without special dispensation might be construed to the Catholic being married as our consent of comimg out of communion with the Catholic Church.
 
“As far as a fully baptised Catholic not being married in the Catholic Church but in a Protestant Church to another baptised Christian and their vows were made before God if both do not agree with the divorce you would have a snow balls chance in South Florida that this would be annuled and mainly puts the Catholic out of comminion with the Catholic Church.”

As a licensed canon lawyer and with 25 years of experience with tribunal and marriage cases, all I can do is to refer to my earlier post, and with some concern now, lest Catholics erroneously believe that they can enter valid marriage simply by their own vows in any manner whatsoever without the active participation of a representative of the Catholic Church. This is off thread but important to clarify. I definitely do not agree with those points of the post which I have commented on.

This analysis confuses the notion of the sacramentality of marriage between the baptized with the form of marriage that is required for validity in particular cases. The baptismal status of a party of of the parties, and hence ecclesiastical membership, determines the form of marriage required for its validity. But the two are not identical notions.

Certainly, if two baptized persons who are free to marry contract marriage according to what ever legal form is required of them, it is a sacrament. Otherwise it is not. (c. 1055 §2). That is true, and it pertains to all the baptized, regardless of religious membership.
True, the consent of the parties, legitimately manifested between persons qualified by law, makes marriage; no human power is able to supply this consent (c. 1057§1). Consent is a sine qua non for valid marriage. However, we then have to look at what this “legitimate manifestation” of consent in that canon means.

Now, even if only one party is Catholic, the marriage of Catholics is regulated not only by divine law but also by canon law (canon 1059). So what kind of legitimate manifestation does canon law require when at least one Catholic is involved?

Again, canon 1108 tells us what canon law requires for a Catholic: “§1. **Only those marriages are valid **which are contracted in the presence of the local ordinary or the pastor or a priest or deacon delegated by either of them, who assist, and in the presence of two witnesses, according to the rules expressed in the following canons, with due regard for the exceptions mentioned in cann. 144, 1112, §1, 1116 and 1127, §§ 1 and 2. §2. The one assisting at a marriage is understood to be only that person who, present at the ceremony, asks for the contractants’ manifestation of consent and receives it in the name of the Church.”

**So this requirement is for validity of marriage. **This is true if two Catholics are wedding each other, or if one Catholic is marrying a non Catholic.

Part 2 in next post
 
Part 2

Canon 1127 §2: gives further detail about dispensation from form: "If serious difficulties pose an obstacle to the observance of the canonical form, the local ordinary of the Catholic party has the right to dispense from the form in individual cases, but after consulting the ordinary of the place where the marriage is to be celebrated and with due regard, for validity, for some public form of celebration; the conference of bishops is to issue norms by which such a dispensation may be granted in an orderly manner. "

If this canonical form is not observed or dispensed from or permitted by exception, the marriage does not even enjoy the presumption of validity, and may be determined as invalid even without the judicial process of a tribunal. (see authentic interpretation of canon 1686, Pontifical Commission on the Authentic Interpretation of the Code of Canon Law, cf. AAS, LXXVI, 1984, 746-747.) Otherwise, an dispensation or an exception must exist, as I noted from canon 1108§1.

Non Catholics, when marrying among themselves, are bound to what ever form of marriage is "prescribed or accepted in the Church or ecclesial community to which the parties belonged at the time of the marriage, provided that, if at least one party is a member of a non-Catholic Eastern Church, the marriage was celebrated with a sacred rite. " (Dignitas connubii, art. 4) But that is only for non Catholics.

Also note canon 1127 §1; if a Catholic party contracts marriage with a non-Catholic of an oriental rite, the canonical form of celebration is to be observed only for liceity; for validity, however, the presence of a sacred minister is required along with the observance of the other requirements of law. " That would be one of the exceptions to canon 1108.

So we need to be attentive to those differences, distinctions, and exceptions. Without an intervention of Church authority or the law, a Catholic cannot validly marry a non Catholic.

While the other comments regarding dissolution and dispensation super rato are interesting but only speculatively pertinent, and hence potentially confusing asides, to the question of the original post since we lack knowledge of the full situation and should not be trying to diagnose it, it is also true that tribunals may investigate the validity of marriage between the unbaptized or when one party is unbaptized. This is done when the conditions for a privilege case do not exist for some reason. Non consummation cases are rare.
 
Wow. 😃

My first husband was (is) Lutheran and baptised. I am Anglican and baptised. This was a first marriage for both of us.

My second husband was (is) Anglican, but I’m not sure if he was baptised. And I’m not likely to get any cooperation in finding out…he is not the nicest human being to be dealing with. He was married once before also, however, I think that was a Salvation Army service in their church. That was both of their first marriages also.

Atomic
 
Atomic,

The best course is to go see a priest and let him gather all the facts.

You are getting some posts on here that are off topic and inaccurate.

Deacon Cameron is a very good resource, being a canon lawyer with many years experience, but as he has said the best course is to go see a priest.

It’s really counter-productive to speculate about your situation, it has many variables. No one wants to discourage you, but no one can guarantee what the outcome will be. I really encourage you to get a copy of the book I suggested. The nullity process is complex, but this book explains it well.

The important thing is that you do go see a priest and get started on the process. Also, do not let the fact that it will take time, patience, and investigation to resolve cause you to lose hope. Be patient, and take it one step at a time.
 
I contacted a catholic organisation in my area about my problem and this was the response:-

"You do not have to become a Catholic to get married in the Catholic Church but you do have to be free to marry in the Catholic Church and for yourself this may involve a process which is neither easy nor quick and to there is no guarantee that it will end as you hope. You need to start now and you may need to be patient.

In terms of your fiancé it appears that there should be no barrier for him as his first marriage has been annulled. As I understand it, in terms of yourself you will need to apply for two annulments. The civil ceremony should not cause major issues but a process needs to be completed. In terms of your Anglican marriage the annulment process for this may be more complex as marriage in the Anglican Church is recognised as Christian Marriage in the Catholic Church.

The steps you will need to take are as follows.

Begin by talking to a Catholic priest – perhaps one in the longer term you would like to witness your marriage
He will inform you of the contact details for the marriage tribunal in your local Catholic diocese (region)
You will need to begin by meeting personnel from the marriage tribunal and laying out all your cards on the table
The annulment process can take some time. At its best it is a source of healing. It can however be experienced as a source of frustration.
I imagine, should you be granted the annulments that it will be suggested that, as a couple you participate in a formal pre marriage program, before getting married in the Catholic Church (perhaps given the history this might be a reasonably intensive process)."

This is obviously in line with all the advice I have received here, and I would like to thank you for your knowledge. Do you also feel that the advice is accurate?
 
there is no reliable way to offer an answer about one person’s particular marriage situation unless it is submitted to the formal canon law investigation process. that can be relatively straightforward if the individual has all the relevant info and documentation at his disposal, but quite lengthy if it requires a lot of investigation, finding witnesses etc. That is why the Church provides a formal process, to ascertain the legal facts. anyone who wishes to marry a Catholic must accept that the Catholic is bound by Canon Law and cannot marry until both are proven to be free to marry, under natural and canon law.
 
Atomic said:
Hi
I take it that my civil service marriage isn’t recognised by the catholic church, but I’m not sure if I need to do anything about my first marriage - or isn’t that recognised either.

.
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not true
as a general rule your first marriage (if both of you were otherwise free to marry and neither was Catholic) is recognized as valid until proven otherwise, no matter who witnessed it or where, because you were not bound by Catholic canon law

if that were investigated and found to be invalid due to some condition that pertained at the time of the marriage (not afterward), the second marriage would also be investigated and so forth. Only when your status is determined may you be free to marry a Catholic in the Catholic Church in accord with Catholic laws.

the only way to find out is to speak to her priest about getting started with a proper investigation which may (not will) lead to a decree of nullity. until then you would both be well advised to avoid any romantic entanglement because it is by no means a sure thing.
 
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