Question about the Great Schism

  • Thread starter Thread starter Wesley7
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I must admit I have never understood this aspect of RC worship. I was never comfortable with it, so I never participated in it myself. I asked about it here a while ago and the only response I got was that some of these devotions were instituted as a result of private revelations to people now considered saints in the RC. That concerned me then and it concerns me now.
 
Bluegoat said:

On the Question of the Sacred Heart Devotion
Click to expand...
I especially found this interesting by St. Athanasios:
St. Athanasius of Alexandria pointed out the wrongness of worshipping Christ’s body in a separate way, in these words:*** “We do not worship a created thing, but the Master of created things, the Word of God made flesh. Although the flesh itself, considered separately, is a part of created things, yet it has become the body of God. We do not worship this body after having separated it from the Word. Likewise, we do not separate the Word from the body when we wish to worship Him. But knowing that “the Word was made flesh,” we recognise the Word existing in the flesh as God.”*** (Ep. ad Adelph., par. 3)
Click to expand...
In Christ,
Andrew
 
dzheremi said:
I must admit I have never understood this aspect of RC worship. I was never comfortable with it, so I never participated in it myself. I asked about it here a while ago and the only response I got was that some of these devotions were instituted as a result of private revelations to people now considered saints in the RC. That concerned me then and it concerns me now.
Click to expand...
It would appear you still don’t understand these mysteries, if you think private devotions is the same as public revelations.

The Immaculate heart of Jesus and Mary is not a piece of meat from the body. Ignorance of the reality of Love and sacrifice is revealed here.

I will pray for you, and give thanks for your blessings upon these little ones with simple faith, and do not have the faith of intellectuals as others have here, who think the heart presented in Love is a piece of meat from the flesh, :confused:“Now that is unbelievable”

Peace be with you
 
Thank you for your prayers, Gabriel. I will stick with St. Athanasius and the understanding that this is improper. I had always thought it was, and not because of any intellectual concern.

St. Athanasius the Great, it should be pointed out, is also considered a saint and even a “Doctor of the Church” in the Roman Catholic Church.
 
“Athanasius against the world” goes the quote. What an amazing hero of the Church. A titan IMO…
dzheremi said:
Thank you for your prayers, Gabriel. I will stick with St. Athanasius and the understanding that this is improper. I had always thought it was, and not because of any intellectual concern.

St. Athanasius the Great, it should be pointed out, is also considered a saint and even a “Doctor of the Church” in the Roman Catholic Church.
Click to expand...
 
Indeed he was and is, and always will be. St. Athanasius the Apostolic, pray for us.
 
dzheremi said:
Thank you for your prayers, Gabriel. I will stick with St. Athanasius and the understanding that this is improper. I had always thought it was, and not because of any intellectual concern.

St. Athanasius the Great, it should be pointed out, is also considered a saint and even a “Doctor of the Church” in the Roman Catholic Church.
Click to expand...
It would appear that you are comparing your apples to St. Athanasius oranges, they are never the same.

Faith supersedes intellect, the spirit of one from the heart is not the same as a body part from the flesh. What you reject here deals with spiritual realities in spiritual terms. You are comparing what is natural in contradiction to what is spiritual. St. Athanasius does not agree with your apples.

To falsely imply the flesh (a body part) to what is revealed from the eternal ( spirit of the heart) spiritual reality are the same, reveals to me room to grow, for this I pray.

Here is a quote that supersedes our St. Athanasius quote that deals with this matter directly;

1Corinthians 2:6 Yet we do speak a wisdom to those who are mature, but not a wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age who are passing away.
7
**Rather, we speak God’s wisdom, mysterious, hidden, which God predetermined before the ages for our glory, **
8
and which none of the rulers of this age knew; for if they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9
But as it is written: **“What eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, and what has not entered the human heart, what God has prepared for those who love him,”
10
this God has revealed to us through the Spirit.For the Spirit scrutinizes everything, even the depths of God. **
11
Among human beings, who knows what pertains to a person except the spirit of the person that is within? Similarly, no one knows what pertains to God except the Spirit of God.
12
**We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the things freely given us by God.
13
And we speak about them not with words taught by human wisdom, but with words taught by the Spirit, describing spiritual realities in spiritual terms. 7 **

14
**Now the natural person 8 does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it, because it is judged spiritually. **

15
**The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgment 9 by anyone.
16
For “who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel him?” But we have the mind of Christ. **
 
I’m not sure what you’re getting at, Gabriel. I don’t see how that relates to this disputed practice, as it does not address it directly, as St. Athanasius has in the portion of his writings quoted earlier in the thread. I find nothing to disagree with in any of the quotes you’ve presented, I just don’t really see how they relate to what we’re talking about.
 
Bluegoat said:
I think the Orthodox think that Immaculate Heart and Sacred Heart stuff is pretty much way out there, and would not spend time contemplating them, no matter what.
Click to expand...
I can agree with you here and this disposition continues to feed the schism, when Orthodoxy becomes stagnant. Water on the blessed martyrs seed is needed so as to grow and move from stagnation.

Be it as it may, that they reject God’s intervention through the Immaculate heart of Mary. This divine revelation is not something new “repent and believe the gospels” and it was not recieved by them, but it was revealed to those who also suffered and sacrificed to put an end to the mindset of rejecting God.

It is here when God is not a respecter of persons to do His will and there are no boundaries to carrying out God’s will.

What is hopeful is the ROC’s undieing faith in the Holy Virgin Mother of God Mary.
 
dzheremi said:
I’m not sure what you’re getting at, Gabriel. I don’t see how that relates to this disputed practice, as it does not address it directly, as St. Athanasius has in the portion of his writings quoted earlier in the thread. I find nothing to disagree with in any of the quotes you’ve presented, I just don’t really see how they relate to what we’re talking about.
Click to expand...
**What was incorrectly presented here **from the quotes of St.Athanasius deals with body parts and the Immaculate heart of Mary simply put.

Quote by Harpazzo “Yes, and not body parts or aspects of her.”

I simply posted that the body part of heart is never worshipped as the negative posts implied from the Immacuate heart of Mary.

I don’t disagree with St.Athanasius his quote “We do not worship a created thing, but the Master of created things,” his teaching supports what I posted here in regards to the Immculate heart of Mary.

I was comparing oranges to oranges not mixing the natural body parts with the spiritual realities.

I presumed that you were agreeing with Harpazzo’s quote to imply, I worship body parts? If this is not the case? Then forgive my misunderstanding, the posts tend to flow that way, and needed clarification.

Peace be with you
 
Devotions to particular anatomy of Christ or Mary are specifically Latin devotions that, yes, focus on the veneration of particular anatomy. I’m not sure how else to put it, as even what I’ve just written gives me a headache…

If you want to believe that the “Sacred Heart” business is orthodox and in keeping with traditional Catholic spirituality, that is up to you. I never have and never will. It is not right to vivisect the Lord or the Theotokos in any way or for any purpose. It makes me extremely uncomfortable even to think of it.
 
dzheremi said:
Devotions to particular anatomy of Christ or Mary are specifically Latin devotions that, yes, focus on the veneration of particular anatomy. I’m not sure how else to put it, as even what I’ve just written gives me a headache…

If you want to believe that the “Sacred Heart” business is orthodox and in keeping with traditional Catholic spirituality, that is up to you. I never have and never will. It is not right to vivisect the Lord or the Theotokos in any way or for any purpose. It makes me extremely uncomfortable even to think of it.
Click to expand...
What you just wrote is very foreign to me, I know of any such venerations of any particular anatomy of Christ or Mary. This is new to me, where did you get such a false idea?

Maybe you are confusing “relics” of saints and martyrs, but even this veneration never leads to what you falsely imply in Catholicism.

Do you have an example of this false inclination of body parts venerated? So as to help you with your’s and mine headache?
 
Gabriel_of_12 said:
What you just wrote is very foreign to me, I know of any such venerations of any particular anatomy of Christ or Mary. This is new to me, where did you get such a false idea?

Maybe you are confusing “relics” of saints and martyrs, but even this veneration never leads to what you falsely imply in Catholicism.

Do you have an example of this false inclination of body parts venerated? So as to help you with your’s and mine headache?
Click to expand...
I think Jeremy is referring to the cultus of the “Immaculate Heart of Mary” and the one for Christ. As St. Athanasios pointed out, it’s not right.

In Christ,
Andrew
 
dzheremi said:
It is not right to vivisect the Lord or the Theotokos in any way or for any purpose.
Click to expand...
Indeed! In fact, it is quite rare to see an Icon of the Most Holy Theotokos without her holding the Christ child. 🙂
 
I am re-reading Fr Jean Croiset’s book ‘Practical Devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus’.

Our Lord told St. Mary Margaret Alococque, that Fr Croiset would be so faithful to relaying the devotion to the Sacred Heart, that when it was finally permitted, that not one single word would be changed.

A while later, the book was put on the Index of forbidden books…for over a 100 years. It turned out that some technical point of submitting the text for review to church authorities was missed, and so the book went to the Index.

When the book was reviewed some time later, there was not even one single word that needed to be changed, it was done so perfectly in accord with the will of Christ. In consideration of Eucharistic miracles, scientific tests identifying the elements coming from a human heart speak to me of the blessing to honor Christ’s Sacred Heart, the symbol of Divine Love.

I have a picture of the Sacred Heart of Jesus by the Unknown Artist above my fireplace in our living room, central to our family, and am at present renewing my devotion to Him in this way. I work and look forward to the coming reign of the Sacred Heart of Jesus…

I did not know that the Orthodox considered Mary’s intercession as such, or the antipathy shown towards the Sacred Heart. I do pick up alot more negativity from Orthodox attitudes towards the Latin Church than I do seeing the Latin towards the Orthodox.

There is more of a universal perspective in the Latin Church in its perspective of spreading the Good News of Jesus Christ, and in acknowledging and working with diversity of cultures.
 
I think Jeremy is referring to the cultus of the “Immaculate Heart of Mary” and the one for Christ. As St. Athanasios pointed out, it’s not right.
Click to expand...
That’s exactly what I am referring to, Andrew. I don’t understand it, even with reference to the tradition of the Latin Church itself. The Catholic Encyclopedia itself admits the relative novelty of this devotion, in writing the following (emphasis added):
From the time of St. John and St. Paul there has always been in the Church something like devotion to the love of God, Who so loved the world as to give it His only-begotten Son, and to the love of Jesus, Who has so loved us as to deliver Himself up for us. But, accurately speaking, this is not the devotion to the Sacred Heart, as it pays no homage to the Heart of Jesus as the symbol of His love for us. From the earliest centuries, in accordance with the example of the Evangelist, Christ’s open side and the mystery of blood and water were meditated upon, and the Church was beheld issuing from the side of Jesus, as Eve came forth from the side of Adam. But there is nothing to indicate that, during the first ten centuries, any worship was rendered the wounded Heart.
Click to expand...
It is wholly absent from the pre-schism worship of the Latin Church, as it is related to developments in the Benedictine monasteries of the 11th and 12th centuries, “in the world of Anselmian or Bernardine thought” (ibid). I find it highly unorthodox and, frankly, weird.

St. Athanasius the Apostolic is right. Again. 👍
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top