Question about the importance of Latin

[Isa_Almisry]

It’s just to unite all Roman Rite Catholics under one voice (in a larger sense, all Catholics, as documents from Rome are first issued in Latin).

It used to be that an American could be on vacation in France and hear the exact same Mass he would back home, except for the homiliy and the gospel. As he country hopped through Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Sweden, and off into China, Japan, Korea, down to Australia and to Hawaii the languages he’d hear on the street would be German, Italian, Spanish, Portugeese, Chinese, Japanese, and Korean but, on Sunday, he would hear the exact same Mass, the Body of Christ praying in one voice and one language, moving as one with their genuflections and SotC, at every single parish, in every single country, no matter culture, language, skin color, politics, or any other variable.

That is all Latin is.

So we run the Church for tourists, and not for the locals who go to Church every Sunday and would like to address God the Father in their mother tonuge. Interesting.

 

[Fuerza]

So we run the Church for tourists, and not for the locals who go to Church every Sunday and would like to address God the Father in their mother tonuge. Interesting.

Believe it or not, some of us locals who go every Sunday would like to address God the Father in Latin…

 

[Brendan]

Actually, in the U.S., the likelihood that she will ever encounter ANY Latin in the Mass is fairly remote, unless you join a parish that regularly uses the TLM.

That depends a lot on where you live. In the Archdiocese of Detroit, I know of at least 5 parishes that regularly offer the NO Mass in Latin (including my own); and have for years, if not decades.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I was able to find them in just about any major city that I traveled to globally. Seoul, S. Korean was partularly nice, because it was the cathedral itself that offered the Latin Mass.

 

[Brendan]

So we run the Church for tourists, and not for the locals who go to Church every Sunday and would like to address God the Father in their mother tonuge. Interesting.

No, we welcome travellers in a Christian way and offer to worship with them in a common language, without any favoritism towards one language or another.

Isn’t that what Christ wants?

No one is saying that we cannot address God in the vernacular, but the Church has said many times that we should have knowledge of how to worship together in a common langauge. Not every Mass need have Latin, but enough should that it be available, and that all Catholics follow what Vatican II taught,

In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and “the common prayer,” but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to tho norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.

Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.

-Sacrosanctum Concillium #54

Pope John XXIII, the very pope who initiated Vatican II, issued an document on the use and study of Latin ( Veterum Sapientia).

In it, he stressed the universal nature of latin within the Roman Rite, and how it give no preference to one nation over another.

Of its very nature Latin is most suitable for promoting every form of culture among peoples. It gives rise to no jealousies. It does not favor any one nation, but presents itself with equal impartiality to all and is equally acceptable to all.

Are we not to avoid favoritism?

As I mentioned in a previous post, I have been on the recieving end of such linguistic hospitality many times, and I have appreciated it greatly.

 

[jheii]

I remember reading somewhere that Latin is considered a sacred language because it was used, along with Greek and Hebrew, on the inscrpition “Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews” which was displayed on the cross of our Lord. Since it was also the language of Rome, where St. Peter was Bishop, it was chosen as the official language of the Roman Church.

 

[Sarabande]

That depends a lot on where you live.

Yes, I would agree with this. My parish has been dong a Latin NO mass for decades - basically since they started doing the mass in the vernacular. There are other parishes that do it as well and we have a few parishes within my diocese and the neighboring diocese which now offer the TLM. There used to be only one in this diocese and one in the neighboring one prior to last year.

I didn’t learn the Latin NO until I was in college and joined the choir and my now parish. I loved it and I love singing and chanting in Latin.

I really got to see how important and nice it was to have when I began to study and travel abroad. I felt more part of the mass when I was able to find a parish which had a Latin NO in other countries because I could “participate” in the responses and chants. Of course, the readings and the homily would be in the vernacular, but at least the rest of the mass was in Latin, since my fluency in the other languages are elementary. (maybe if I had a booklet in the vernacular language, it would have helped me as I’d be able to follow along better, but since the Latin was already known, there isn’t a need for a booklet.)

 

[jblake]

Wirraway;:

why Latin since it is not the language of either the OT or the NT." there’s the obvious,

There is some circumstantial evidence to suggest that one of the Gospels was originally written in Latin. Some translations into English retain traces of the underlying Latin.

I’ll also point out that there is a (very minority view) theory that each Gospel was written in a different language. Aramaic, Hebrew, Latin, and Greek.

Unless one is fluent in all of those languages, one probably won’t pick up the traces of the underlying language, regardless of the language that one is studying the text in.

xan

jonathon

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I remember reading somewhere that Latin is considered a sacred language because it was used, along with Greek and Hebrew, on the inscrpition “Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews” which was displayed on the cross of our Lord.

yes, the Pope of Rome denounced the “Trilingual heresy” (that all the three languages on the Cross could be used) when SS Cyril and Methodius went to evangelize the Slavs.

Since it was also the language of Rome, where St. Peter was Bishop, it was chosen as the official language of the Roman Church.

It wasn’t the language of Rome (except in the Senate, the court and pagan rites) when he was there, and wouldn’t for a century after his martyrdom.

 

[PKinsale]

Blessed Pope John XXIII wrote beautifully on the importance of Latin:

adoremus.org/VeterumSapientia.html

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Believe it or not, some of us locals who go every Sunday would like to address God the Father in Latin…

And why would that be?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

No, we welcome travellers in a Christian way and offer to worship with them in a common language, without any favoritism towards one language or another.

I’m all for Christian hospitality, but a boarding house makes a poor hearth and home.

Isn’t that what Christ wants?

When He sent down His spirit, they all spoke in many tongues.

I never saw where the gift of tongues in the NT was speaking in Latin.

No one is saying that we cannot address God in the vernacular, but the Church has said many times that we should have knowledge of how to worship together in a common langauge. Not every Mass need have Latin, but enough should that it be available, and that all Catholics follow what Vatican II taught,

-Sacrosanctum Concillium #54

Pope John XXIII, the very pope who initiated Vatican II, issued an document on the use and study of Latin ( Veterum Sapientia).

In it, he stressed the universal nature of latin within the Roman Rite, and how it give no preference to one nation over another.

And those nations not in the Latin rite, what of them?

Are we not to avoid favoritism?

I favor prayer over mantras.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I have been on the recieving end of such linguistic hospitality many times, and I have appreciated it greatly.

I’m not convinced mass in a language equally unknown to the participants is “hospitality.”

 

[Isa_Almisry]

There is some circumstantial evidence to suggest that one of the Gospels was originally written in Latin. Some translations into English retain traces of the underlying Latin.

None of the Gospels were written in Latin.

Some translations, like the Douay Rheims, were translated from Latin but that doesn’t make the Latin original.

I’ll also point out that there is a (very minority view) theory that each Gospel was written in a different language. Aramaic, Hebrew, Latin, and Greek.

Unless one is fluent in all of those languages, one probably won’t pick up the traces of the underlying language, regardless of the language that one is studying the text in.

xan

jonathon

 

[jblake]

Isa Almisry;:

And why would that be?

Latin has a sanctity about it, that English,and most other vernacular’s lack. (There is an esoteric rational as to why this is so. That explanation is off topic for this entire forum.)

xan

jonathon

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Latin has a sanctity about it, that English,and most other vernacular’s lack. (There is an esoteric rational as to why this is so. That explanation is off topic for this entire forum.)

xan

jonathon

Archbishop John of blessed memory, when the parish was switching to English, one of the parishoners said "but your grace, when you hear the Old Russian, it gives you a warm feeling right here [touching his heart].

Archbishop John said “I get the same feeling after three vodkas.”

 

[mercygate]

I remember reading somewhere that Latin is considered a sacred language because it was used, along with Greek and Hebrew, on the inscrpition “Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews” which was displayed on the cross of our Lord. Since it was also the language of Rome, where St. Peter was Bishop, it was chosen as the official language of the Roman Church.

Um. Since Latin was also used for some of the vilest literature on earth, this claim has always left me cold. It is not the language that is sacred, it is the MASS that is sacred.

In the Vatican today, signs on the lavatories and ATM machines are in Latin. How sacred is that?

 

[mercygate]

And why would that be?

Why would people enjoy using Latin? Same reasons my Greek Orthodox friends use Greek: it is the traditional language of the liturgy of our rite.

 

[Sarabande]

Why would people enjoy using Latin? Same reasons my Greek Orthodox friends use Greek: it is the traditional language of the liturgy of our rite.

Exactly - same with my Jewish friends and cousin - They use Hebrew and learn Hebrew because is the traditional language of their religion. Or my Armenian Catholic friends who may not necessarily still speak Armenian on an everyday basis, but will during their liturgy.

Also, for me - even though I like mass in both the vernacular and in Latin - there is a spiritual continuity and connection for me with my Catholic ancestors when I attend a Latin mass in the OF or EF.

What I’ve always found interesting is that these other faiths and denominations seem to not have the same hang up about using their traditional language for their service or mass which is the language of their faith/denomination, but for some reason, there is always a huge hang up with using the language of the Church for the Latin Rite. I sometimes get an impression that some people look at it as “threatening” - as if everything they believe in as a Catholic will be taken away if Latin is given importance. That may not be the case, but it does come off that way sometimes by people. A mass in Latin is no more threatening as a mass in the vernacular - basically not threatening at all.

I mean, even my Armenian friend who tends to go more towards the liberal side of things, still embraces the language of her church and the traditions that go along with it. Same with my Jewish friends who are Conservative Jews. I know that Reform Judaism may think differently. They are proud of their traditional languages and understand the connection between the past and present for their faith.

I don’t understand why there are Latin Rite Catholics who are scared of their lingual tradition. For my generation, is it because we had so many people tell us as kids that Latin is old and useless and represents bad things? And yes, I know my generation got that. I never believed it, but I wonder if others did. Does the Latin bring back memories of the older folks who did have it which they may not want to remember? Perhaps. But that could also be the case with the other Rites and other faiths. Why does it seem like it is only the Latin Rite who get themselves into knots about the language?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Why would people enjoy using Latin? Same reasons my Greek Orthodox friends use Greek: it is the traditional language of the liturgy of our rite.

The Greeks in Greece speak Greek.

Where you do speak Latin? Not even the Vatican, where they use Italian (though you can make the argument that that is Modern Latin).

As for the Greeks, if you go to Divine Liturgy and it is in one language and if you go to the other Liturgy otherwise known as the coffee hour and it is in another language, something is wrong.

 

[mercygate]

The Greeks in Greece speak Greek.

Where you do speak Latin? Not even the Vatican, where they use Italian (though you can make the argument that that is Modern Latin).

As for the Greeks, if you go to Divine Liturgy and it is in one language and if you go to the other Liturgy otherwise known as the coffee hour and it is in another language, something is wrong.

I do not understand your indignation, The portions of the liturgy that do not change are easily learned by anybody in the language of their rite. I have friends who gleefully chant the whole liturgy in Old Church Slavonic without the least sense of alienation. I have a friend who is a bi-ritual Deacon in the Catholic Church who comfortably switches between the Novus Ordo, the Traditional Latin Mass and the Ukranian Liturgy. When I have attended the Maronite liturgy, I have been thrilled to hear the consecration in ancient Syriac – the language closest to that spoken by Our Lord. We are a big, multi-lingual family.

Is your negativity innate, or do you cultivate it?

 

[Sarabande]

The Greeks in Greece speak Greek.

Yet, if you attend a liturgy at a Greek Orthodox Church here in the States, they will do it Greek.

Where you do speak Latin? Not even the Vatican, where they use Italian (though you can make the argument that that is Modern Latin).

Many of the Church documents are in Latin… If they can write and read fluently in Latin, they can obviously speak it. And if you study or speak Italian, it is very close to Latin.

As for the Greeks, if you go to Divine Liturgy and it is in one language and if you go to the other Liturgy otherwise known as the coffee hour and it is in another language, something is wrong.

Why is there something wrong? Can you please be more specific? There are many Catholic rites that do this - not just with Greek Orthodox - and they don’t seem to have a problem with it. Even in Conservative Judaism, they don’t go around speaking Hebrew all over the place after their services, yet they embrace their traditional language.

I don’t understand. You seem so adverse and negative towards the use of Latin. What has it done to you? What have you seen in a truly negative light that the use of Latin or other traditional languages for liturgy or service has apparently brought so much animosity towards using them? Has it hurt people spiritually? Do you see faiths that incorporate their traditional languages as less spiritual and not as deep in their faith and spirituality? Did it hurt you spiritually? If so, why?

I ask because people don’t feel negatively about something unless they either have had a bad experience or if they were influenced by teachers, mentors or other people within their social network. I also just want to figure out the thought processes of those who seem to have so much animosity towards this. It may help me understand better.

I know my experience is different because I grew up only with mass in the vernacular and not until I was an adult did I have attend a mass in Latin. I’ve had teachers, etc. prior talk it down, but I never listened. And when I began studying music, there was so much beautiful sacred music in Latin, it got me thinking that those teachers/mentors were either basing it on bad experiences or other influences. So, my experience has been a good one - and perhaps why I’m not adverse to Latin or other traditional languages, as well as the vernacular.