Question about the importance of Mary's virginity

[drblank1]

I think whether Protestant or Catholic, we can all agree that Mary was/is the most extraordinary, non-divine person on earth. So her being in a extraordinary relationship with Joseph isn’t far fetched at all.

Not that Mary wasn’t blessed by being chosen by God, but I think Jesus would disagree with you. Matthew 11:11

 

[ClearWater]

Are you indicating the Holy Spirit had relations with Mary? I’m sure you are not but just clarifying.

And if Mary had sex with Joseph after Jesus’ birth, how is that fornication when they were married?

You can only blaspheme a god/the divine. Are you indicating the apparition of Mary was claiming to be divine?

Definition of blasphemy: google.com.mx/search?q=blasphemy+definition&oq=blasphemy+definition&aqs=chrome…69i57j0l5.6727j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Mary was holy and sacred. Her body housed God for 9 months.

 

[drblank1]

I believe that when Mary was very young she took a vow of virginity because she wanted to belong to God alone forever. This was not done to deny the holiness of marriage. Marriage is very sacred in both the Jewish and Christian religions. It was her destiny to take this higher path.

What prompts you to have these beliefs? Please don’t think I’m not challenging you. I’m just curious as to the importance placed on Mary’s virginity within the Catholic/Orthodox faith.

 

[susanlo]

I thought Mary took a vow of perpetual virginity? St Joseph knew this when he married her.

What is the source that reveals that Mary took this vow? Is there anywhere else in all of Judaism where people would vow to remain chaste throughout their life? I am not aware of this being part of a Jewish custom. I do think it was a practice in some of the other religions in ancient Rome.

Joseph could not have “married” a perpetual virgin, because they could not be married if they did not consummate the marriage. They could have been perpetual platonic unwed roommates with a very unique arrangement.

 

[Lea101]

It’s not that her perpetual virginity is so important to US, it’s the fulfillment of the sacred scriptures that she be a “garden enclosed, a fountain sealed” (Song 4:12). It is the way God intended for her to be - not that having marital relations would’ve caused her to sin in any way. In fact, as Christ “appears” in rooms after his Resurrection without entering through the locked door or windows, perhaps He was born by the same way. We have no way of understanding this mystery, but the Church teaches that Our Lady’s virginity is perpetual, which means that not even her hymen was broken when Christ was born. I hope that helps…if not I can try and expand some more for you. Let me know!

She indeed was a virgin her whole life, but why does that mean her hymen did not break?

Genuinely curious. It was a misconception that hymen=virginity in the old days, but now we know that it breaks in a ton of ways + some are born without one. It even looks different in different girls (but for the sake of this conversation, I won’t talk about that) Some can even have sex and not break it. So I don’t get why people think this way now?

 

[Wesrock]

So within the Catholic church, being a virgin is considered a higher/holier path to take?

Not by itself, not necessarily, but choosing virginity allows a person to devote himself or herself more wholely to God. The focus is less on worldly things, and sex cannot help but be a worldly thing in some respects. Do not mistake me, for marriage and sex are great goods given to men. People who choose virginity sacrifice the opportunity for marriage and sex, and we must remember that for something to truly be a sacrifice, it must be something good. God didn’t ask for blemished or lame offerings, but the first fruits. Sex isn’t sacrificed by those who choose virginity because it is bad, but because it is good, and they wish to devote themselves more completely to God. Jesus chose celibacy, as did John the Baptist, and Saint Paul chose sexual continence for himself.

In regards to Mary, society today is losing its sense of the sacred. We seem to want to say “so what?” to the idea that the divine drew flesh from and rested within a certain place, or to anything one might label as sacred. But God did not permit the Ark of the Covenant to be casually touched, nor was the Holy of Holies to be casually entered. Was it because doing so would lessen God? No, of course not, but they were set aside for God and so were holy, and sacred, and not so casually treated. Mary was a truer resting place for God’s presence than the Ark or the Holy of Holies ever was. The Ark was only a shadow of what was to come with Mary. The incomprehensible, all powerful, invisible God came and overshadowed Mary and then dwelt within her womb in the flesh. We have been hearing this story since we were children, and we have become desensitized and don’t appreciate the magnitude of that.

 

[Wesrock]

What prompts you to have these beliefs?

The Protevangelium of James, written in the second century, records the tradition that Mary had taken a vow of virginity. It is certainly not scripture, probably fictional in at least some respects, but the idea of Mary’s vow of virginity was present at the time, and that tradition in itself is preserved in both Catholic and Orthodox teaching, though not dogma.

 

[Wesrock]

Not that Mary wasn’t blessed by being chosen by God, but I think Jesus would disagree with you. Matthew 11:11

Jesus was born of woman. Was he less than John the Baptist?

 

[susanlo]

Where does the Bible indicate Mary didn’t remain a virgin?

Matthew 1:25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

Luke 2:5 He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. 6 While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, 7 and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son.

Matthew 12:46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.

Matthew 13:55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”

See also: Mark 3:31, Mark 6:3, Luke 18:19-21, John 2:12, Acts 1:14, and Galatians 1:19 for references that Jesus had brothers and sisters.

All of these references seem to imply that Mary and Joseph had marital relations and were blessed with many children. To be married and not have children was shameful in Judaism (remember Rachel, Hannah, etc.).

I don’t know if there is indisputable evidence one way or another as to whether she remained a perpetual virgin. I have also wondered why it truly matters to us today. Whether she was or wasn’t a perpetual virgin does not change who Jesus is or what Jesus did for our salvation.

 

[Wesrock]

Many Church Fathers also understood Ezekiel 44:2 as being Christological:

Ezekiel 44: 2 And he said to me, “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.

Some quite emphatically understand this closed gate through which only the Lord God of Israel passes … as the Virgin Mary, who remains a Virgin before and after childbirth. In fact, she remains always a Virgin, in the moment in which the Angel speaks with her and when the Son of God is born. -St. Jerome (Commentarium in Evangelium Lucae, PL 25, 430.)

Only Christ opened the closed doors of the virginal womb, which continued to remain closed, however. This is the closed eastern gate, through which only the high priest may enter and exit and which nevertheless is always closed. -St. Jerome (Dialogus contra Pelagianos 2, 4)

“Who is this gate (Ezekiel 44:1-4), if not Mary? Is it not closed because she is a virgin? Mary is the gate through which Christ entered this world, when He was brought forth in the virginal birth and the manner of His birth did not break the seals of virginity.” -St. Ambrose (The Consecration of a Virgin and the Perpetual Virginity of Mary , 8:52)

“She is closed because she is a virgin; she is a gate, because Christ has entered through her…This gate faces east, because she has given birth to him who rises, the sun of justice…Mary is the good gate that was closed and was not opened. Christ passed through it, but did not open it.” -St. Ambrose (De Institutione Virginis, 8, 57. PL 16, 334)

“What means this closed gate in the House of the Lord, except that Mary is to be ever inviolate? What does it mean that ‘no man shall pass through it,’ save that Joseph shall not know her? And what is this–‘The Lord alone enters in and goeth out by it’–except that the Holy Ghost shall impregnate her, and that the Lord of angels shall be born of her? And what means this–‘it shall be shut for evermore’–but that Mary is a virgin before His Birth, a virgin in His Birth, and a virgin after His Birth?” - Saint Augustine (De Annunt. Dom. iii)

 

[drblank1]

Not by itself, not necessarily, but choosing virginity allows a person to devote himself or herself more wholely to God. The focus is less on worldly things, and sex cannot help but be a worldly thing in some respects. Do not mistake me, for marriage and sex are great goods given to men. People who choose virginity sacrifice the opportunity for marriage and sex, and we must remember that for something to truly be a sacrifice, it must be something good. God didn’t ask for blemished or lame offerings, but the first fruits. Sex isn’t sacrificed by those who choose virginity because it is bad, but because it is good, and they wish to devote themselves more completely to God. Jesus chose celibacy, as did John the Baptist, and Saint Paul chose sexual continence for himself.

In regards to Mary, society today is losing its sense of the sacred. We seem to want to say “so what?” to the idea that the divine drew flesh from and rested within a certain place, or to anything one might label as sacred. But God did not permit the Ark of the Covenant to be casually touched, nor was the Holy of Holies to be casually entered. Was it because doing so would lessen God? No, of course not, but they were set aside for God and so were holy, and sacred, and not so casually treated. Mary was a truer resting place for God’s presence than the Ark or the Holy of Holies ever was. The Ark was only a shadow of what was to come with Mary. The incomprehensible, all powerful, invisible God came and overshadowed Mary and then dwelt within her womb in the flesh. We have been hearing this story since we were children, and we have become desensitized and don’t appreciate the magnitude of that.

To you first paragraph, if she made a different sacrifice like take a Nazarite vow, she would have been exulted for that instead of not staying a virgin?

And to your second paragraph: thus Joseph abstaining from sex until after Mary was born. But it is not the fact that Mary herself was a virgin but that she took on some sort of “discipline” to serve God more effectively?

 

[Wesrock]

Matthew 1:25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

“And he never drank again until he died.” Did he drink after he died?

It establishes that Jesus was not conceived by conjugal union. No more. I’ll let Saint Jerome speak: newadvent.org/fathers/3007.htm

Luke 2:5 He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. 6 While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, 7 and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son.

I’m not sure what the first part establishes. Even if Mary took no vow of virginity in her youth, things can change once the shadow of the most high overshadows you and Hod dwells within you.

As for being first-born, that’s an official designation. There were certain expectations and Jewish connotations for the first-born. It does not imply a “second-born” or more.

Matthew 12:46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.

Matthew 13:55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”

See also: Mark 3:31, Mark 6:3, Luke 18:19-21, John 2:12, Acts 1:14, and Galatians 1:19 for references that Jesus had brothers and sisters.

Step-siblings or cousins. They most likely all grew up under one roof and in close quarters. None of whom Jesus entrusted his mother to at his death.

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/maryc2.htm

For the understanding of the early church: quotes from the Fathers: ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage_print.asp?number=288174&language=en

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Not that Mary wasn’t blessed by being chosen by God, but I think Jesus would disagree with you. Matthew 11:11

Commonly misunderstood passage.

Read in it’s context it’s talking about the line of prophets.

 

[Vonsalza]

Matthew 1:25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

Luke 2:5 He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. 6 While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, 7 and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son.

Matthew 12:46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.

Matthew 13:55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”

See also: Mark 3:31, Mark 6:3, Luke 18:19-21, John 2:12, Acts 1:14, and Galatians 1:19 for references that Jesus had brothers and sisters.

Greetings,

Use of the word “firstborn” does not indicate that there was a “secondborn”.

Something from this very site on the existence of Christ’s brothers: catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/jesus-had-brothers

Please remember that the notion “Mary had sex with Joseph and had other kids” is an innovation. Beyond modern evangelical interpretations, there is no literature extant that supports this view until well after the reformation. Catholics are just trying to stay true to the doctrine of the primitive Church on this matter.

From practical concerns, I would doubt very highly that a woman who birthed God-Incarnate would be interested in rearing other children. They could simply never compete with their elder half-brother. “You always treat Jesus like he’s extra special!”
Mary & Joseph: “Well… He kinda is…”

If a couple wanted to avoid having more kids in that day, they had to refrain from sex. This is often forgotten in the modern evangelical concept of marriage where some form of birth control is an expected matter of course. Remember that prior to the American 1930’s, this was not the case. “Sex” and “kids” were inseparably linked for the overwhelming majority of human (and Christian) history.

TAMUCCStudent and others also made excellent points with scripture references like Song 4:12 and 2 Samuel 6:7.

As a last, the concerns that Mary and Joseph wouldn’t have appeared married to people is a non-issue. I doubt they walked around telling random people “Hey! That kid isn’t Joe’s! He’s never touched me!”. Verily, that man is worthy of his sainthood…

It would also be worth pointing out that Joseph was likely an older man in much of Christian tradition - he had a cool temper when Mary showed up pregnant and he didn’t survive to Jesus’s adulthood. He could have most certainly had other children from a previous, dead spouse.

 

[Wesrock]

To you first paragraph, if she made a different sacrifice like take a Nazarite vow, she would have been exulted for that instead of not staying a virgin?

Mary is exalted because God chose her for this extreme privilege and for her full commitment to God’s will in hos plan.

And to your second paragraph: thus Joseph abstaining from sex until after Mary was born. But it is not the fact that Mary herself was a virgin but that she took on some sort of “discipline” to serve God more effectively?

Before Jesus was born and after. I still think you’re losing the sense of the sacred here. As for her virginity, I don’t know if it’s entirely separable from her “discipline”, but yes, it’s not simply her virginity, but her dedication and setting aside of herself for God.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Greetings,

Use of the word “firstborn” does not indicate that there was a “secondborn”.

Something from this very site on the existence of Christ’s brothers: catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/jesus-had-brothers

Please remember that the notion “Mary had sex with Joseph and had other kids” is an innovation. Beyond modern evangelical interpretations, there is no literature extant that supports this view until well after the reformation. Catholics are just trying to stay true to the doctrine of the primitive Church on this matter.

From practical concerns, I would doubt very highly that a woman who birthed God-Incarnate would be interested in rearing other children. They could simply never compete with their elder half-brother. “You always treat Jesus like he’s extra special!”
Mary & Joseph: “Well… He kinda is…”

If a couple wanted to avoid having more kids in that day, they had to refrain from sex. This is often forgotten in the modern evangelical concept of marriage where some form of birth control is an expected matter of course. Remember that prior to the American 1930’s, this was not the case. “Sex” and “kids” were inseparably linked for the overwhelming majority of human (and Christian) history.

TAMUCCStudent and others also made excellent points with scripture references like Song 4:12 and 2 Samuel 6:7.

As a last, the concerns that Mary and Joseph wouldn’t have appeared married to people is a non-issue. I doubt they walked around telling random people “Hey! That kid isn’t Joe’s! He’s never touched me!”. Verily, that man is worthy of his sainthood…

Yes Luke 2:23 clears that right up :

Luke 2:23Amplified Bible (AMP)

23 (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “Every firstborn male that opens the womb shall be called holy [set apart and dedicated] to the Lord)”

This is why it’s so imperative to view the scriptures with a Jewish lense and not a 21st century American lense.

Even Luther went to his grave understanding Mary was ever virgin.

 

[Vonsalza]

Even Luther went to his grave understanding Mary was ever virgin.

He most certainly did.

 

[drblank1]

Mary is exalted because God chose her for this extreme privilege and for her full commitment to God’s will in hos plan.

Before Jesus was born and after. I still think you’re losing the sense of the sacred here. As for her virginity, I don’t know if it’s entirely separable from her “discipline”, but yes, it’s not simply her virginity, but her dedication and setting aside of herself for God.

So its the act of dedicating herself to God, and being chosen as the vessel to birth Jesus? Add her perpetual virginity to the formula and this is why Orthodox/Catholics regard her virginity so positively?

 

[drblank1]

Mary is exalted because God chose her for this extreme privilege and for her full commitment to God’s will in hos plan.

Before Jesus was born and after. I still think you’re losing the sense of the sacred here. As for her virginity, I don’t know if it’s entirely separable from her “discipline”, but yes, it’s not simply her virginity, but her dedication and setting aside of herself for God.

Sorry, I am not trying to argue Joseph has sex with Mary after Jesus’ birth. I know no one is going to change their minds on this forum.

I should have wrote, “Thus Joseph abstaining during her pregnancy”.

So do you believe it would had made the whole situation less sacred if she did have sex with Joseph?

 

[drblank1]

Even Luther went to his grave understanding Mary was ever virgin.

Luther also went to his grave hating the Jews and believing the book of James did not belong in the Bible.

I’m not saying he was wrong about Mary. Just pointing out that God doesn’t “fix” everything about us all the time. Even the father of the Reformation.