question about the offertory

[lak611]

In the EF, the priest says what is translated as "Accept, O holy Father, almighty and eternal God, this unspotted host . . . " At this point, it is just bread, not Jesus, so why does the priest say “unspotted”? How can bread be perfect? Please do not become angry with my question. I actually like the EF of the Mass. I’m just a little confused by this part. What does it mean?

 

[jj2011]

In the EF, the priest says what is translated as "Accept, O holy Father, almighty and eternal God, this unspotted host . . . " At this point, it is just bread, not Jesus, so why does the priest say “unspotted”? How can bread be perfect? Please do not become angry with my question. I actually like the EF of the Mass. I’m just a little confused by this part. What does it mean?

I think that’s known as a proleptic utterance, meaning it anticipates what is to come. The host is just bread at the offertory, but the prayer anticipates what this bread will become at the consecration.

A similar thing could be said about other expressions in the offertory prayers, such as the “chalice of salvation” and so on.

 

[lak611]

I think that’s known as a proleptic utterance, meaning it anticipates what is to come. The host is just bread at the offertory, but the prayer anticipates what this bread will become at the consecration.

A similar thing could be said about other expressions in the offertory prayers, such as the “chalice of salvation” and so on.

Thank you. That makes sense.

 

[mgy100]

ἀναφορά = anaphora. Anaphora is a Greek word. In the Divine Liturgies of Sts. Basil and John Chrysostom the Anaphora, the
ἀναφορά is the equivalent to the Offertor to the Preface in the Roman Mass. We are not simply offering bread to God. We are about to offer up the Sacrifice of the Mass, Christ is the Sacrifice, the spotless host.

Substitute words in English that have been used for ἀναφορά/anaphora are “oblation” and “sacrifice.” Oblation meaning “offering.”

The actual prayer from the 1962 Roman Missal (pardon my lack of accents)
Suscipe, sance Pater, omnipotens aeterne Deus, hanc immaculatam hostiam, quam ego indginus famulus tuus offero tibi Deo meo vivo et vero, pro innumerabilibus peccatis…

Now the Angelus Press missal sitting in front of me, page 859 (The Roman Catholic Daily Missal 1962, Angelus Press 2004) gives the
translation “Receive, O holy Father, almighty, eternal God, this spotless host which I, thine unworthy servant…”

This is because Christ is the most pure and perfect oblation/ἀναφορά/spotless sacrifice. We celebrate the continual, eternal sacrifice of Christ. Spotless refers to the bloodless sacrifice that is Christ on the altar.
Non-Christian religions often perform animal sacrifices. Christ is the ultimate Sacrifice, to be spotless and bloodless. He shed His blood for us. The continual and constant Sacrifice in the mass which transcends time is a most perfect and spotless/bloodless sacrifice. That the oblation/ἀναφορά/offering, the host, who is really Christ is the most perfect, supreme and spotless, which is offered in the form of the host/bread.
It isn’t simply saying the host, or the bread is pure and spotless or perfect, it is saying the symbolic host is Christ, who is the most perfect and pure Sacrifice. (symbol actually means something that is here present, transcends time and extends into Heaven, we use the word symbol in English these days in place of the correct word for the common usage which is sign).

 

[lak611]

ἀναφορά = anaphora. Anaphora is a Greek word. In the Divine Liturgies of Sts. Basil and John Chrysostom the Anaphora, the
ἀναφορά is the equivalent to the Offertor to the Preface in the Roman Mass. We are not simply offering bread to God. We are about to offer up the Sacrifice of the Mass, Christ is the Sacrifice, the spotless host.

Substitute words in English that have been used for ἀναφορά/anaphora are “oblation” and “sacrifice.” Oblation meaning “offering.”

The actual prayer from the 1962 Roman Missal (pardon my lack of accents)
Suscipe, sance Pater, omnipotens aeterne Deus, hanc immaculatam hostiam, quam ego indginus famulus tuus offero tibi Deo meo vivo et vero, pro innumerabilibus peccatis…

Now the Angelus Press missal sitting in front of me, page 859 (The Roman Catholic Daily Missal 1962, Angelus Press 2004) gives the
translation “Receive, O holy Father, almighty, eternal God, this spotless host which I, thine unworthy servant…”

This is because Christ is the most pure and perfect oblation/ἀναφορά/spotless sacrifice. We celebrate the continual, eternal sacrifice of Christ. Spotless refers to the bloodless sacrifice that is Christ on the altar.
Non-Christian religions often perform animal sacrifices. Christ is the ultimate Sacrifice, to be spotless and bloodless. He shed His blood for us. The continual and constant Sacrifice in the mass which transcends time is a most perfect and spotless/bloodless sacrifice. That the oblation/ἀναφορά/offering, the host, who is really Christ is the most perfect, supreme and spotless, which is offered in the form of the host/bread.
It isn’t simply saying the host, or the bread is pure and spotless or perfect, it is saying the symbolic host is Christ, who is the most perfect and pure Sacrifice. (symbol actually means something that is here present, transcends time and extends into Heaven, we use the word symbol in English these days in place of the correct word for the common usage which is sign).

I understand all of what you are saying. I was just confused as to why this terminology is used before the Consecration.

 

[mgy100]

Laura,
I eat crow on my reply above. We offer the spotless host, the bread.
The priest whom I spoke with said we are talking about the fact that we offer the best gifts we have to our Lord. So spotless host = the best gifts we offer unto our Lord.

 

[lak611]

Laura,
I eat crow on my reply above. We offer the spotless host, the bread.
The priest whom I spoke with said we are talking about the fact that we offer the best gifts we have to our Lord. So spotless host = the best gifts we offer unto our Lord.

Now I do understand. Thank you for asking your priest for clarification.

 

[AJV]

Laura,
I eat crow on my reply above. We offer the spotless host, the bread.
The priest whom I spoke with said we are talking about the fact that we offer the best gifts we have to our Lord. So spotless host = the best gifts we offer unto our Lord.

That is strange, mgy100. I would have concurred with most of what you said above. Could it be possible that your priest misunderstood your question?

“Spotless Host (or Spotless Victim)” and “Chalice of Salvation” are Eucharistic terms. Bread and wine, even if the best we have to offer cannot be offered for numerous negligences and sins as the Suscipe Sancte Pater says, or for the salvation as Offerimus tibi says.

At the same time it is true that what it IS at that point is bread and wine and that is also what is offered.

I have heard one justification for the proleptic language being used is that the dedicated bread and wine are “types” of the Body and Blood which they will become, and therefore the proleptic references used in East and West (some of the more overt proleptic references were removed from those liturgies of the East upon Union with Rome)

From the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass by Dr. Gihr

The words and the rite of the oblation before the Consecration relate to a twofold object namely, to the elements of bread and wine, and also to Christ’s Body and Blood.

In the first place, the oblation (oblatio) relates to the Eucharistic elements: the bread and wine are withdrawn from common use, consecrated to God and previously sanctified, that they may be in a manner prepared and made fit for their unspeakably exalted destiny. We give up all claim to these earthly gifts and offer them to the Most High, with the intention and desire that He would change them in the course of the Sacrifice into the most holy Body and Blood of Christ. Accordingly, this portion of the Mass rite includes manifold petitions to the Most High, that He graciously accept and bless or consecrate the bread and wine offered.

Yet the Offertory has not exclusively for its object the mere elements of bread and wine, but also the real object of the Sacrifice, the true and only Sacrifice of the New Law, that is, the Body and Blood of Christ, which by Consecration take the place of the former substances of bread and wine, and thus become present on the altar.

The Church, therefore, does not wait until the change of substance has taken place to offer to the Divine Majesty the Divine Victim; no, she already now offers the real Victim to the Divine Majesty, regarding, as it were, the approaching Consecration of the sacrificial elements as if already passed.

 

[mgy100]

AJV, I didn’t forget about your question. I’ll get back to you soon.

 

[Tah_Dah_Man]

Question about The Offertory:

This is because Christ is the most pure and perfect oblation/ἀναφορά/spotless sacrifice. We celebrate the continual, eternal sacrifice of Christ. Spotless refers to the bloodless sacrifice that is Christ on the altar.

“…eternal sacrifice of Christ.” ???

The Council of Trent (1545-1563)
TWENTY-SECOND SESSION, CANONS ON THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS:
“If anyone says that the sacrifice of the mass is one only of praise and thanksgiving; or that it is a mere commemoration of the sacrifice consummated on the cross but not a propitiatory one or that it profits him only who receives, and ought not to be offered for the living and the dead, for sins, punishments, satisfactions, and other necessities, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA” (Canons on the Sacrifice of the Mass, Canon 3).

“but not a propitiatory one” ???

(A SACRIFICE FOR SINS)

wordreference.com/definition/propitiatory

Which raises some questions, to say the least.

Was Jesus sacrificed once and for all?

Or, is He the sacrificial “Victim” continually, again and again (as oft as we sin, or, as oft as we gather) on a daily basis?

Romans 6:8-10. -Paul, the Apostle, to the Church at Rome, First Century A.D.
8 “Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.”

Hebrews 7:22-28. Paul, to the Christian Jews (and us).
22 “…so much more Jesus has become a surety [guarantee] of a better covenant. 23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. 26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.”

In Hebrews, Paul does profoundly (if not prophetically) touch on familiar fallible similarities of Jewish and Catholic priesthoods, as compared to Jesus’ own infallible, unchangeable and non-transferable Priesthood (similar to the order of Melchizedek). (-Mel was the sole priest in his order.)

Hebrews 9:11-28. Paul.
11 “But Christ came as a High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once and for all, having obtained eternal redemption.”

Hebrews 10:10-25. Paul.
10 “…we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified…18 Now where there is remission of these [sins], there is no longer an offering for sin…”

1 Peter 3:18. Peter - himself!
“For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit…”

“He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, shall He not freely give us all things?” -Romans 8:32. Paul.

In the past tense, yes? -A done deal. (And, of course, all Bible Scriptures should be noted in their context.)

Mark 10:45. Jesus paid the “ransom” in full. (1 Timothy 2:6; Hosea 13:14; Isaiah 52:13-15; Isaiah 53:1-12.)

John 17:4. Jesus prayed to the Father and said, “I have finished the work which You have given Me to do…”

John 19:30. After six hours on the cross: Jesus said, “It is finished.” And…gave up His spirit.”

His Sacrifice “is finished.” The “forgiveness of sins and everlasting life,” are by the merits of Jesus Christ alone.

Luke 22:19. Jesus said, “…do this in remembrance of Me.”

 

[Tah_Dah_Man]

The Sacrifice of Jesus: is non-denominational.
-He did it for you, He did it for them, and He did it for me: us.

Daily, Catholic priests sincerely (but adamantly) claim and pray: that the Sacrifice will be through (and only through) what they are doing. (Now, that’s a denomination.) -When, all the while, the One and only Sacrifice **for sins **that Jesus Himself ever made: was the very One on the cross, back then, as He prayed to the Father. According to the Bible Scriptures, through that One and most powerful Sacrifice (back then): He made “The Atonement.” And, we can all be grateful that His Sacrifice does not need to be “renewed” or “perpetuated” by other sacrifices. It stands alone, yes? And to this “once for all” historic Sacrifice of His, we may look (back). (John 3:14-21. Hebrews 7:22-28; 9:11-12; 10:10-18. 1 Peter 3:18. Jude 3.)

When we believe and gather in His Name - in remembrance of Him - in the realization (and acknowledgement) of the fact of His “finished” Sacrifice, then we can totally trust in, cling to, and rely on Him always! And, we can now and always gratefully give to God (The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) all of the glory, praise and thanksgiving due, for making “so great a salvation” come true! (Hebrews 2:3. 2 Thessalonians 2:13. 2 Corinthians 6:2. Ephesians 1:3. 1 Peter. Romans 1:16. Romans 10:10. Jude 3. Revelation 19:1.)

Yes, since the stakes are so high (all mankind’s salvation on the line): Which “Sacrifice” should a convicted sinner believe in? -His sinless One; or a sincere many?
There appears to be a distinction, a difference. -Yes, even a choice: a decision to make.
Shall we trust in what God Himself has painstakingly established through His precious Son: Jesus Christ?
Or, shall we trust in what The Church has sincerely (but rather mistakenly) established through her dogmas and decrees?
-In any event: Which event should we believe in, and rely on?
**His “finished” Event? **
Or, another event: the next Mass?

 

[lak611]

The Sacrifice of Jesus: is non-denominational.
-He did it for you, He did it for them, and He did it for me: us.

Daily, Catholic priests sincerely (but adamantly) claim and pray: that the Sacrifice will be through (and only through) what they are doing. (Now, that’s a denomination.) -When, all the while, the One and only Sacrifice **for sins **that Jesus Himself ever made: was the very One on the cross, back then, as He prayed to the Father. According to the Bible Scriptures, through that One and most powerful Sacrifice (back then): He made “The Atonement.” And, we can all be grateful that His Sacrifice does not need to be “renewed” or “perpetuated” by other sacrifices. It stands alone, yes? And to this “once for all” historic Sacrifice of His, we may look (back). (John 3:14-21. Hebrews 7:22-28; 9:11-12; 10:10-18. 1 Peter 3:18. Jude 3.)

When we believe and gather in His Name - in remembrance of Him - in the realization (and acknowledgement) of the fact of His “finished” Sacrifice, then we can totally trust in, cling to, and rely on Him always! And, we can now and always gratefully give to God (The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) all of the glory, praise and thanksgiving due, for making “so great a salvation” come true! (Hebrews 2:3. 2 Thessalonians 2:13. 2 Corinthians 6:2. Ephesians 1:3. 1 Peter. Romans 1:16. Romans 10:10. Jude 3. Revelation 19:1.)

Yes, since the stakes are so high (all mankind’s salvation on the line): Which “Sacrifice” should a convicted sinner believe in? -His sinless One; or a sincere many?
There appears to be a distinction, a difference. -Yes, even a choice: a decision to make.
Shall we trust in what God Himself has painstakingly established through His precious Son: Jesus Christ?
Or, shall we trust in what The Church has sincerely (but rather mistakenly) established through her dogmas and decrees?
-In any event: Which event should we believe in, and rely on?
**His “finished” Event? **
Or, another event: the next Mass?

If you wish to discuss Protestant beliefs, please start a new thread in the Non-Catholic Religions forum. Please do not derail my thread.

 

[Tah_Dah_Man]

If you wish to discuss Protestant beliefs, please start a new thread in the Non-Catholic Religions forum. Please do not derail my thread.

OK.
(But, I saw that my post was QUITE relevant - that of which I read from the New Testament Scriptures. -I try to be as “non-dogmatic” as I can about “the faith.”)

“Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you:
exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.” - St. Jude, v3. First Century A.D.

-He speaks to me. How ‘bout you?

Essential Christianity is Original Christianity.

Let’s read our New Testament.

 

[drforjc]

Fortescue notes in The Mass- A Study of the Roman Liturgy, in his discussion of the offertory prayers:

Indeed by a curious anticipation of the consecration expressions are used which imply that the procession brings the body and blood of Christ.

This is footnoted thus:

The Byzantine Cherubic hymn, sung at the Great Entrance, calls the gifts “the king of all things.” The corresponding Antiochene… hymn says: The king of kings, Christ our God, comes" … The Armenians sing so-called Hagiologies… at the Great Entrance. Their anticipated adoration is even more marked."

 

[lak611]

Essential Christianity is Original Christianity.

I know. That is why I am Catholic.

Let’s read our New Testament.

I have, and that is why I believe in the Mass and the Holy Catholic Church. Read Matthew 26:26-28 and 1 Corinthians 11:23-29. I did. Jesus says “This is My body” and I believe Him.

 

[Jlcastagna]

John 19:30. After six hours on the cross: Jesus said, “It is finished.” And…gave up His spirit.”

His Sacrifice “is finished.” The “forgiveness of sins and everlasting life,” are by the merits of Jesus Christ alone.

It is finished, look at how not using the best translation can distort things so much. It is consumated which is the best translation of what our Lord said would not lead to so much confusion. Yes, Christ’s sacrafice was completed but He was refering to so much more in his statement as others wiser than myself will attest:

St. John Chysostom [347-407 AD] Homilies on the Gospel of St. Matthew Homily 87

And they gave Him gall to drink, and this to insult Him, but He would not. But another saith, that having tased it, He said, “It is finished?” The prophecy was fullfilled concerning Him. “For they gave me” it is said, “gall for my meat, and for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.” But neither doth that evangelist indicate that he drank, for merely to taste differs not from not drinking, but hath one and the same signification.

St. Augustine of Hippo [354-430] Tractates on the Gospel of John Tractate 47 (John 10:14-21)

To lay down one’s soul then, is to die. As also the Apostle Peter said to the Lord: “I will lay down my life [soul] for Thy sake;” that is, I will die for thy sake. View it then as referable to the flesh: the flesh layeth down its life, and the flesh take it again; not, indeed, the flesh by its own power, but by the power that Him that inhabiteth it. The flesh, then, layeth down its life by expiring. Look at the Lord Himself on the cross: He said, “I thirst:” those who were present dipped a sponge in vinegar, fastened it to a reed, and applied it to His mouth; then, having received it, He said, “It is finished;” meaning, All is fulfilled which had been prophesied regarding me as, prior to my death, still in the future.

St. Augustine of Hippo, [354-430 AD] Tractates on the Gospel of John Tractate 119 (John 19:24-30)

He then adds: “After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. Now there was set a vessel full of viegar: and they filled a sponge with vinegar, and fixed it upon hyssop, and put it to His mouth. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, It is finished: and He bowed His head, and gave up the ghost.” Who has the power of so adjusting what he does, as this Man of arranging all that He suffered? But this Man was the Mediatorbetween God and men; the Man of whomwe readin prophecy, He is man also, and who shall acknowledge Him? for the men who did such things acknowledged not this man as God. For He who is manifestas man, was hid as God: He who was manifest sufferedall these things, and He Himself also, who was hid, arraranged them all.

A wicked people did such things, a compassionate Christ suffered them. They who did them, knew not what they did; but He who suffered, not only knew what was done, and why it was so, but also wrought what was good through those who were doing what was evil. 6. “When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, It is finished.” Whwt, but all thatprophecy had foretold so long before? And then, because nothing now remained that still required to be done beforeHe died, as if He, who had power to lay down His lifeand to take it up again, had at length completed all for whose completion He was waiting, “He bowed His head, and gave up the ghost.”

 

[Jlcastagna]

and

Pope Leo the Great [395-461 AD] Sermons sermon 55

IV. When the last act in the tragedy was over how must the Jews have felt? And then, having now tatsed the vinegar, the produce of that vineyard which had degenerated in spite of its Divine Planter, and had turned to the suorness of a foreign vine, the Lord says, “it is finished;” that is, the scriptures are fulfilled: ther is no more for Me to abide from the fury of the raging people: I have endured all that I foretold I should suffer. The mysteries of the weakness are completed, let the proofs of power be produced. And so He bowed His head and yielded up His Spirit and gave that Body, Which sould be raised again on the third day, the rest of peaceful slumber. And when the Author of life was under going this mysterious phase, and at so great a condescension of GOD’S Majesty, the foundations of thr whole world were shaken, when all creation condemned their wicked crime by its upheaval, and the very elements of the world delivered a plain verdictagainst the criminals, what thoughts, what heart-seachings had ye, O Jews, when the judgement of the universe went against you, and your wickedness could not be recalled, the crime having been done? what confusion covered you? what torment seized your hearts? V. Chastity and charity are the two things needful in preparing for Easter Com-munion. Seeing therefore, dearly-beloved, that GOD’S Mercy is so great, that He has deigned to justify. by faith even many from among such a nation, and had adopted into the company of the patriarchs and into the number of the chosen people us who were once perishing in the deep darkness of our own ignorance, let us mount to the summit of our hopes not sluggishlynor in sloth; but prudently and faithfully reflecting fromwhat captivity and from how miserable a bondage, with what ransom we were purchased, by how strong an arm led out, let us glorify GOD in our body: that we may show him dwelling in us, even by the uprightness of our manner of life: And because no virtues are worthieror more excellent than merciful loving-kindness and unblemished chastity, let us more especially equip ourselves with these weapons, so that, raised from the earth, as it were on the twowings of active charity and shining purity,we may win a place in heaven. and whosoever, aided by GOD’S grace,is filled with this desireand glories not in himself, but in the LORD, over his progress, pays due honor to the Easter mystery. His threshold the angel of destructiondoes not cross, for it is marked with the Lamb’s blood and the sign of the cross. he fears not the plagues of Egypt, and leaves his foes overwelmed by the same waters by which he himself was saved. And so dearly-beloved, with minds and bodies purified let us embracethe wonderous mystery of our salvation, and, cleansed from all “the leaven of our wickedness, let us keep” the LORD’S Passover with due observance: so that the Holy Spirit guiding us, we may bring peace by His blood to all things, has returned to the loftiness of the Father’s glory, and yet not forsakenthe lowliness of those who serve Him to whom is the honour and the glory for ever and ever. Amen

St. Thomas Aquines [1225-1274 AD] Summa Theologica OF THE DURATION OF THE CEREMONIAL PRECEPTS

Reply to Objection 2: The mystery of the redemption of the human racewas fulfilled in Christ’s Passion: hence our Lord said then: “It is consumated” (Jn. 19:30). Consequently the presciptions of the law must have ceased thenaltogether through their reality being fulfilled. As a sign of this, we read that at the Passion of Christ “the veil of the temple was rent” (Mat. 27:51). Hence, before Christ’s Passion, while Christ was preaching and working miracles, the law and the Gospelwere concurrent, since the mystery of Christ had already begun, but was not as yet consumated. And for this reason Our Lord, before His Passion, commanded the leper to observe the legal ceremonies.

May God bless and protect us,
JLC

 

[SacredHeartFan]

At what part of the mass does it actually become Jesus? (like what prayer does the priest say?)

 

[lak611]

At what part of the mass does it actually become Jesus? (like what prayer does the priest say?)

In the EF Mass, when the priest says, “Hoc est enim Corpus meum”.

 

[po18guy]

“…eternal sacrifice of Christ.” ???

All of this stems from the fact that you do not understand the mass. But, you are on your way, if you keep up the dialog.

Remember, to prove that Catholic doctrines are not true, you must use the atheist’s methods. Your method and thought processes are currently the same as theirs - only your beliefs are different.

Nevertheless, being a brother in Christ, I pray that you have a very merry Christmas and a blessed new year.