question about the offertory

[Tah_Dah_Man]

It is finished, look at how not using the best translation can distort things so much. It is consumated which is the best translation of what our Lord said would not lead to so much confusion. Yes, Christ’s sacrafice was completed but He was refering to so much more in his statement as others wiser than myself will attest:

St. John Chysostom [347-407 AD] Homilies on the Gospel of St. Matthew Homily 87

And they gave Him gall to drink, and this to insult Him, but He would not. But another saith, that having tased it, He said, “It is finished?” The prophecy was fullfilled concerning Him. “For they gave me” it is said, “gall for my meat, and for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.” But neither doth that evangelist indicate that he drank, for merely to taste differs not from not drinking, but hath one and the same signification.

St. Augustine of Hippo [354-430] Tractates on the Gospel of John Tractate 47 (John 10:14-21)

To lay down one’s soul then, is to die. As also the Apostle Peter said to the Lord: “I will lay down my life [soul] for Thy sake;” that is, I will die for thy sake. View it then as referable to the flesh: the flesh layeth down its life, and the flesh take it again; not, indeed, the flesh by its own power, but by the power that Him that inhabiteth it. The flesh, then, layeth down its life by expiring. Look at the Lord Himself on the cross: He said, “I thirst:” those who were present dipped a sponge in vinegar, fastened it to a reed, and applied it to His mouth; then, having received it, He said, “It is finished;” meaning, All is fulfilled which had been prophesied regarding me as, prior to my death, still in the future.

St. Augustine of Hippo, [354-430 AD] Tractates on the Gospel of John Tractate 119 (John 19:24-30)

He then adds: “After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. Now there was set a vessel full of viegar: and they filled a sponge with vinegar, and fixed it upon hyssop, and put it to His mouth. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, It is finished: and He bowed His head, and gave up the ghost.” Who has the power of so adjusting what he does, as this Man of arranging all that He suffered? But this Man was the Mediatorbetween God and men; the Man of whomwe readin prophecy, He is man also, and who shall acknowledge Him? for the men who did such things acknowledged not this man as God. For He who is manifestas man, was hid as God: He who was manifest sufferedall these things, and He Himself also, who was hid, arraranged them all.

A wicked people did such things, a compassionate Christ suffered them. They who did them, knew not what they did; but He who suffered, not only knew what was done, and why it was so, but also wrought what was good through those who were doing what was evil. 6. “When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, It is finished.” Whwt, but all thatprophecy had foretold so long before? And then, because nothing now remained that still required to be done beforeHe died, as if He, who had power to lay down His lifeand to take it up again, had at length completed all for whose completion He was waiting, “He bowed His head, and gave up the ghost.”

Are we to lay down the New Testament, and read all of the interpretations of others, and see the Scriptures through them?
I have a Greek/English Interlinear NT and keyed dictionary of OT-NT words. Time would be better spent with it in getting to the nitty-gritty of what was (is) meant in the Scriptures. Or, would that not bode well?, not be humble enough?, or not be politically correct?

 

[Tah_Dah_Man]

It is finished, look at how not using the best translation can distort things so much. It is consumated which is the best translation of what our Lord said would not lead to so much confusion. Yes, Christ’s sacrafice was completed but He was refering to so much more in his statement as others wiser than myself will attest…​

OK Castagna. Now, a little review:

John 17:4. Jesus prayed to the Father and said,
“I have finished the work which You have given Me to do…”

John 19:30. After six hours on the cross:
Jesus said, “It is finished.” And…gave up His spirit.”

Hebrews 10:10-25. Paul.
10 “…we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,
13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified…"
18 Now where there is remission of these [sins], there is no longer an offering for sin…”

Hebrews 9:22
“And almost all things, according to the law, are cleansed with blood: and without shedding of blood there is no remission.”

His blood was shed once - right?

What is distorted here?
'Looks plain and simple to me.:coffeeread:

Jesus is not doing anymore sacrifices for sin.

Thank you Jesus for your one and only Sacrifice !
:yup: :clapping: :dancing: :extrahappy: :bowdown2:

 

[po18guy]

Jesus is not doing anymore sacrifices for sin.

Thank you Jesus for your one and only Sacrifice !
:yup: :clapping: :dancing: :extrahappy: :bowdown2:

Hello??? Are you listening? Mass is that one sacrifice. The same one. It is not a re-do, a repeat, or a re-anything. How stunted and partial is any understanding of Christianity that does not accept this, as the Eleven and Paul did. You are a brother in Christ, but learn how it has been since day 1. Where did your unusual interpretation come from, anyway?

Is baptism necessary or not?

Hey, have a merry Christmas and a blessed new year, learning about what Paul celebrated that we still do.

 

[Tah_Dah_Man]

Hello??? Are you listening? Mass is that one sacrifice. The same one. It is not a re-do, a repeat, or a re-anything. How stunted and partial is any understanding of Christianity that does not accept this, as the Eleven and Paul did. You are a brother in Christ, but learn how it has been since day 1. Where did your unusual interpretation come from, anyway?

Is baptism necessary or not?

Hey, have a merry Christmas and a blessed new year, learning about what Paul celebrated that we still do.

Well, the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, isn’t really the same one as the ones The Church does. And, by the Word of God, I am believing in The One and Only Sacrifice that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit did - that takes away my sin, while you believe that it has to be offered again and again in order for it to be in effect, which is erroneous.

 

[Tah_Dah_Man]

Hello??? Are you listening? Mass is that one sacrifice. The same one. It is not a re-do, a repeat, or a re-anything. How stunted and partial is any understanding of Christianity that does not accept this, as the Eleven and Paul did. You are a brother in Christ, but learn how it has been since day 1. Where did your unusual interpretation come from, anyway?

Is baptism necessary or not?

Hey, have a merry Christmas and a blessed new year, learning about what Paul celebrated that we still do.

“Is baptism necessary or not?” -GOOD QUESTION.
1 Corinthians 1:17.
“For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.”

Can you see the argument ?
There are Scriptures that seem to emphatically say that it is, while there are Scriptures that seem to emphasize the it is not necessary. While The RCC is not divided on water baptism (as far as I know), its method of sprinkling is not in The Bible. Full emersion seems to have been the standard. Does the RCC flop here?

 

[Tah_Dah_Man]

Post #25 by po18guy:
“Is baptism necessary or not?”

Douay-Rheims Bible
“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father from heaven give the good Spirit to them that ask him?” -Jesus, in Luke 11:13.

King James Bible
“If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?” -Jesus, in Luke 11:13.

To me, this is one of the best Scriptures to ponder as we celebrate the birth of our Savior.

And, it looks as though the Holy Spirit is for the asking.
God soley baptizing the person who asks…
God soley confirming the person who asks…

That surely by-passes a lot of “red tape.”

Gee, maybe “the forgiveness of sins and everlasting life” are for the asking, too. -Ya think?

John 10:27-30. Jesus.
27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one…”

I believe that I am in good hands!
Believe, and pray with me.

Romans 10:9-13. Paul.
“…that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.”
13 For, “whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” -Joel 2:32.

Believe: The Promise.

          Dear Jesus,

I know that I am a sinner, and so undeserving of Your mercy.
But I call upon You now with all conviction, and I ask You now to please forgive me all of my sins, for You know them all.
You are the only One who can forgive me, and take away my sins.
You are the only One that can save me from sin, death, Hell, and the wrath of God (by that one and only historic Sacrifice You made for us, in Your Body and Blood, while on the cross).
And, I thank You now for bearing the cross for us, paying the ransom in full, and setting us free from Satan’s lies and strongholds.
Thank You for forgiving me, redeeming me, saving me, and granting me everlasting life, as You have promised.
Only You can save us from our sin’s penalty.
(We cannot save ourselves, and, there is no Church or religious work of ours that can save us.)

I give thanks, and all the glory to You Jesus, Your Father, and the Holy Spirit!

Use me to reach others with Your Gospel!

In Your Name Jesus, I will pray, and praise You! Amen.

Did you ask Him? :bowdown2:
YES? -Then, Merry Christmas - indeed!
:yup: :clapping: :dancing: :extrahappy:

The Greek word “Gospel” does mean: “Good News!”

“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” -Romans 6:23.

“Repent, and thou shalt be saved.” “Alrighty then!” -Ace Ventura, Pet Detective.

“…that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” -John 3:15.

“…that through death He [Jesus] might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the Devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.” –Hebrews 2:14-15.

“Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.” –Jesus. John 8:36.

Paul and Barnabus preach the Gospel. Acts 13:48:
“Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord.
And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.” (This calls for a celebration!)

 

[Tah_Dah_Man]

Douay-Rheims Bible
“For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.” -John 3:16.

King James Bible
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” -John 3:16.

We are made blameless and worthy by our faith in the historic shed Blood of Jesus, The Word of God, and the continual sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit.

Titus 3:4-8. Paul.
4 “But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared:
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.”

Our “works of righteousness” follow us after Jesus saves us.

We do not do works of righteousness (in order) to get saved.

Ephesians 2:8-10. Paul.
8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”

Romans 4:5-8. Paul. (Romans, chapter 4)
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies [redeems] the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.” -Psalm 32.
(Apart from works, and prescribed penances.)

In the New Testament, Luke, the writer of the Book of Acts bears out the fact that Paul (Saul) was an adamant fanatical Jew of Jews, who persecuted the first Christians; but then had a miraculous conversion to Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 1:8-11. Paul.
8 “Therefore, do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.”
(A “Gentile” is any non-Jew.)

“…that through death He [Jesus] might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the Devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.”
–Hebrews 2:14-15.

2 Corinthians 5:17-18. Paul.
“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation…”

God’s great Gift to us: Jesus Christ = Everlasting Life.
Merry Christmas - indeed!!!
Thank You LORD!

 

[mgy100]

Hello, Mcfly, listen, there was no protestant smell in the bit I was quoted on. Please, re-study a few things and report back.
Quoting a council or canon law/bible/saints is one thing. Reading and understanding the saints and the canon law and the local councils you are cutting and pasting from is a whole different issue.

Do you know what I did, I called a priest whose training is in the extraordinary form and asked him the question from the original post.
When I get stumped, I tend to go to a real and solid source. I don’t instantly bash and cut and paste to prove a point.

 

[Jlcastagna]

Are we to lay down the New Testament, and read all of the interpretations of others, and see the Scriptures through them?
I have a Greek/English Interlinear NT and keyed dictionary of OT-NT words. Time would be better spent with it in getting to the nitty-gritty of what was (is) meant in the Scriptures. Or, would that not bode well?, not be humble enough?, or not be politically correct?

Let me get this straight, your belief is that each individual should read the Bible and interpret it however he wants to and we should not listen to those who came before us translation not even the Apostles. Which by my logic would make Martin Luther’s statement shortly before his death that “eventually there will be as many faiths as there are heads” close to being true. Oh, but wait a minute this thing we are talking about the Bible it says:

1. Jesus founded a Church. Mt.16:18-19
   2.This Church has the power to make decisions. Mt. 18:17-18 Doing things your way we would have to be politically correct and let every existing Church have a vote as to how disagreements should be decided. To me not logical at all.
2. This Church will be led by the Holy Spirit to All Truth through the Apostles. Jn. 16:13 But you say we should just interpret scripture ourselves and not accept the interpretations of the Apostles or those they handed those interpretations on to.
3. Being led by the Holy Spirit this Church will be the Pillar and Foundation of truth. 1 Tim. 3:15 Not many different truths through many different Churches. The Holy Spirit can only lead to Absolute truth, not separate truths.
4. This Church will exist from the first century to forever. Mt. 16:18 As far as I know only one Church can trace itself back to Peter and the first century.
5. That Jesus would also be with His Church till the consummation of the world. Mt. 28:20 By the Apostles handing down their translations of the not yet written sciptures
6. This Church through the Apostles can forgive sin or not. Jn. 20:21-23 Maybe I’m wrong but what your saying to this part of scipture is; Oh, silly Jesus don’t you know that you already died for all our sins, these Apostles (Bishops) and their successors neither need to or have any authority to forgive or retain sins on earth even if you just gave them the authority to do so.
7. That the sciptures are hard to understand and that some people translate them improperly to their own destruction. 2 Pet. 3:15-16

So according to you, I shouldn’t trust the translation of scipture of the Church Jesus founded and those that the Apostles handed on those translations to. That the Holy Spirit at some point quit leading the Church unto all truth and just started jumping around to whatever church he liked at whatever point in time. In December of 2007 the fullness of truth is now contained in the church of Pope Tah Dah Man.

Should we lay down the New Testament? No
Should we read the interpretations of others and see the sciptures through them? No, Just those in Christ’s Church who have been handed down those transltions from the Apostles and that Church the Holy Spirit has faithfully led throughout all time.

May God bless and protect us & Merry Christmas,
JLC

 

[mgy100]

Dear Moderator, I think this post has gone way off topic. Several new questions were asked that should have been started with their own threads. It is now a see who can cut and paste the most battle.

 

[lak611]

Dear Moderator, I think this post has gone way off topic. Several new questions were asked that should have been started with their own threads. It is now a see who can cut and paste the most battle.

Would it be possible for a Moderator to start a new thread for our Protestant TaDaMan so my thread does not get further derailed?

 

[po18guy]

Well, the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, isn’t really the same one as the ones The Church does. And, by the Word of God, I am believing in The One and Only Sacrifice that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit did - that takes away my sin, while you believe that it has to be offered again and again in order for it to be in effect, which is erroneous.

Are you the judge of the Church of Christ and its actions? If so, just who gave you the authority?
(Luke 6:37) “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.”

Why do you persist in your unbelief?
(Romans 11:23-24) “And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!”

You have been told in plain English what the proper interpretation of the entirety of Christian Tradition is. You are clearly not Catholic, so I must tell you that your tradition is error, pure and simple. The evil one has tempted those who have taught you, for his snares are many.
(Mark 13:22) “For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible.”

Sola scriptura was never mentioned, authorized, commended, commanded or approved by Christ. It remains, at most, 50% of Christianity. Your bible has less scripture than the original bible. Even a Catholic bible amounts to the Cliff Notes of Christ. Is that all you want? 50% of Christ just might get you into the Kingdom. But, what if it doesn’t?

You have truth in much of what you say. But, you are gravely mistaken about Christian Tradition, since your denomination is so new. I will joyously send you a book that reveals how an Evangelical’s eyes were opened to the fullness of truth. Are you interested in the truth? Yes, eternal life is that important.

Blessed Lord God, may the Holy Spirit open the eyes of Tah Dah Man, that as with Saint Thomas, be may not persist in his unbelief, but will believe. Shed Your Divine mercy upon him so that, in the fullness of time, he may come to obedience to Your Blessed Son, our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. I ask this in Your Holy, Heavenly, and Eternal name. Amen.

Christ’s peace be always with you.

 

[Tah_Dah_Man]

Let me get this straight, your belief is that each individual should read the Bible and interpret it however he wants to and we should not listen to those who came before us translation not even the Apostles. Which by my logic would make Martin Luther’s statement shortly before his death that “eventually there will be as many faiths as there are heads” close to being true. Oh, but wait a minute this thing we are talking about the Bible it says…

I think this is moving away from the point I was making about “It is finished.” -and what Jesus meant.

John 17:4. Jesus prayed to the Father and said,
“I have finished the work which You have given Me to do…”

John 19:30. After six hours on the cross:
Jesus said, “It is finished.” And…gave up His spirit.”

Hebrews 10:10-25. Paul.
10 “…we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,
13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.
14 **For by one offering **He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified…"
18 Now where there is remission of these [sins], there is no longer an offering for sin…”

Hebrews 9:22
“And almost all things, according to the law, are cleansed with blood: and without shedding of blood there is no remission.”

His blood was shed once - right?

What is distorted here?
'Looks plain and simple to me.:coffeeread:

Jesus is not doing anymore sacrifices for sin.

And, the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, isn’t really the same one as the ones The Church does. And, by the Word of God, I am believing in The One and Only Sacrifice that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit did - that takes away my sin; while you believe that it has to be offered again and again in order for it to be in effect, which is erroneous.

Thank you Jesus for your one and only Sacrifice !
:yup: :clapping: :dancing: :extrahappy: :bowdown2:

 

[Jlcastagna]

Tah Dah Man,
I’ve already answered your question.
" Yes, Christ’s sacrafice was completed but He was refering to so much more in his statement as others wiser than myself will attest:"
The point is that you are looking at a piece of a section of an area of the whole Big Picture. Take about three steps back and take a look at the whole picture. Then put aside whatever it is that bothers you about the Catholic Church. Reread my posts and hopefully the big picture will come into focus.

May God bless and protect us,
JLC

 

[po18guy]

Tah Dah Man,
I’ve already answered your question.
" Yes, Christ’s sacrafice was completed but He was refering to so much more in his statement as others wiser than myself will attest:"
The point is that you are looking at a piece of a section of an area of the whole Big Picture. Take about three steps back and take a look at the whole picture. Then put aside whatever it is that bothers you about the Catholic Church. Reread my posts and hopefully the big picture will come into focus.

May God bless and protect us,
JLC

Jlcastagna, you did, indeed, answer his “question”, if that it what it really was. His refusal to dialog and his thinly veiled, even explicit accusations make him appear to be yet another intractable anti-Catholic. He has not responded to information, choosing rather to tell us what we believe. I have reminded him of rule 7 by PM. Failing a response, I will begin reporting him. I am praying for him, as something or someone has hardened his heart against the truth.

Christ’s peace.

 

[mgy100]

Why would anyone even read/answer the protestant posts on this thread? Don’t feed the troll.

The op has been answered. Seriously, the moderator needs to lock this thread.
And no one should feed the troll.

 

[lak611]

Why would anyone even read/answer the protestant posts on this thread? Don’t feed the troll.

The op has been answered. Seriously, the moderator needs to lock this thread.
And no one should feed the troll.

I already asked the Moderator to start a new thread for the Protestant in the Non-Catholic religion forum or to close this thread. I received the Catholic answer that I wanted.

 

[Jo_Benedict]

Note:

This thread is closed. Thanks to all who participated in the discussion.