Question about the Pill

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buffalo:
Can’t clear it up - but if even 1 abortion could take place then it would be an issue.
What level of “could” is this? Lots of medications change your body chemistry in unknown ways, and probably do affect implantation rates, merely by altering the woman’s body temperature, blood nutrient levels, or whichever factor would be relevant. Are you saying that if a medication has any chance of decreasing implantation rates, then the woman should abstain while taking it?

I don’t know, but I might suspect it is possible that any medication that increases chances of birth defects (lots and lots of these exist) could also possibly increase spontaneous miscarriage. I suspect it because it seems likely to me that a little baby with medical problems is more likely to spontaneously die/miscarry.
 
However, because of the pill’s effect in decreasing the occurrence of conception, spontaneous abortions caused by failure to implant actually decrease in a women on the pill.
This is actually true to all my knowledge, and in fact there might even be less of an abortifacent factor than even this. My understanding is that the abortifacent issue was raised because scientists noticed that the uteran lining was altered in SOME women by use of the Pill. The flip-side, of course, is that these women weren’t ovulating at all when taking the Pill correctly. To my knowledge this concern has never been tested beyond the hypothetical. What we DO know is that in the relatively few women where the Pill doesn’t seem to prevent ovulation, they get pregnant at about the same rate as those who aren’t using the Pill at all, so the abortifacent effect is miniscule if it exists at all.

Just because it’s miniscule doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be considered, however. It’s an open question, and one that every person needs to carefully weigh themselves. For my part, without a Church ruling to the contrary, I believe that the abortifacent effect is really a non-issue medically speaking, and personally I would feel clear of conscience to have marital relations with my spouse if she had to take the Pill for medical reasons, specifically orthotricycline which seems to be the most successful ovulation-suppressor with the least risk of potential abortive effects. I wouldn’t just give a blanket statement that it’s ok for everyone, however, because I’m really groping in the dark on this without a firm Church teaching one way or another. I’ve come to peace with MY conscience on the matter, but I will immediately change my stance should the Church make a more definate statement. Others should weigh all options and considerations!
 
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Catholic2003:
If a woman not on the pill would have 3 or 4 spontaneous abortions (i.e., failures to implant), and by taking the pill that would be reduced to only 1 spontaneous abortion (i.e., failure to implant), it’s just not jumping out at me why the pill should be placed in the same class as an abortifacent like the IUD.
Comparing a medically related spontaneous abortion to a naturally occuring one is quite different. Knowlingly taking a hormonal agent that is designed to prevent conception is against our teachings regardless of a possible positive statistic.

The following - Published in Linacre Quarterly, November 1999, p.26-35

Birth Control Pill: Abortifacient and Contraceptive by William F. Colliton, Jr., M.D., FACOG
The author is Clinical Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology at George Washington University Medical Center.

The signatories were distressed by the statement that “millions and millions” of preborn sisters and brothers have been and will be lost to these hormonal agents which obviously can be abortifacient. Let’s look at the math. Women on BCPs have 28-day cycles and thus have 13 cycles per year (365/28 = 13.3). According to Facts in Brief from the Alan Guttmacher Institute (faxed 3/13/98), 10,410,000 U.S. women are current pill users, 26.9% of all methods. This is second only to sterilization used by 27.7% of contraceptors. This would appear to be another sign of their anti-life nature. Dr. Don Gambrell has informed us that there is a 14% breakthrough ovulation rate in females taking the 50 microgram pills (10,410,000 x 0.14 = 1,457,400 ovulations each cycle). 1,457,000 x 13 cycles per year = 18,946,200 possible exposures to pregnancy each year. The accepted rate for “pill pregnancies” is 3-5 per 100 women years. Noting the fact that there is a 60+% rate of spontaneous tubal abortions with an unfavorable implantation site in ectopic pregnancies, it is reasonable for us to calculate a rate of conceptions lost to early physician (BCP) induced abortion of intrauterine pregnancies in pill users as twice that of term “pill pregnancies”, given once again, an endometrium that is “less vascular, less glandular, thinner” than normal. Thus the possible abortion rate induced by BCPs is 18,946,200 « 0.06 = 1,136,772 or 18,946,200 « 0.1 = 1,894,620 per year. We are convinced that the reasoning with regard to the math on this issue is sound.

Dr. Murphy Goodwin was asked to review this reasoning and math. He wrote (personal communication, 4/23/98): “It is possible that there are more than a million such losses per year but a reasonable calculation could also put the loss rate at one tenth of that number.” He added: “1) I believe that it is most likely that the total number excess fetal losses (abortions) due to the combined pill is in the range of several hundred thousand, substantially less than the number of elective abortions annually and 2) the fact that this is not the intended effect of the pill in most cases and the effect in any one circumstance is unknowable makes the ethical issues much more complex than those surrounding elective abortion. The educational and political challenge of elective abortion is much more straightforward and is a necessary prerequisite of undertaking the more complex moral issue of the abortifacient effect of the pill.” These sound thoughts deserve the prayerful reflection of all right-to-lifers. Using a normal fecundity rate of 20% and other scientifically sound variables, Dr. Goodwin arrived at pill-induced abortions totals between 104,100 per year and 1,561,500 per year. Curiously his high number is approximately half-way between our two calculations. His low number is not insignificant. We must also remember that with RU-486 and methotrexate waiting in the in wings or available today, chemical and hormonal killing of the preborn may one day make surgical abortion look pale in the shade. We should also recall that 10-15% represent conservative estimates of spontaneous early abortions in normally cycling females desirous of pregnancy and favored with a delicately balanced reproductive cycle designed by God. To state or feel that BCP-consuming females experience a 0% rate of physician-induced abortion (from the pill) is wishful thinking of the highest order.
 
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buffalo:
Comparing a medically related spontaneous abortion to a naturally occuring one is quite different.
I admit to not seeing the difference, which is why I’m trying to find out more about this. Egg and sperm meet, conception occurs, a zygote is formed, the zygote fails to implant, the zygote dies in a spontaneous abortion. If a women is ingesting chemicals, and these chemicals have the overall effect of reducing the rate of spontaneous abortion, why does it make any sense to call these chemicals “abortifacents” solely because they do not reduce the rate of spontaneous abortion to zero?

Here is an analogy that may help you understand what I’m thinking. Five people are about to die in a burning building. A hero goes into the building and saves four of them. Is that hero now a murderer for having failed to save the fifth person? Would the hero have behaved morally by staying uninvolved and letting all five die?
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buffalo:
Knowlingly taking a hormonal agent that is designed to prevent conception is against our teachings regardless of a possible positive statistic.
No question there. But the sin of contraception and the sin of abortion are two different sins, and I would like to understand how to distinguish the two. For example, the sin of abortion carries the penalty of automatic excommunication.
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buffalo:
The following - Published in Linacre Quarterly, November 1999, p.26-35



Thus the possible abortion rate induced by BCPs is 18,946,200 « 0.06 = 1,136,772 or 18,946,200 « 0.1 = 1,894,620 per year.
I don’t follow the significance of the term “induced”. This 1,894,620 number is the total number of spontaneous abortions that occur annully in users of the pill. It is not zero. However, if a similarly-sized population of non-pill-users would have 7 million spontaneous abortions, then isn’t this just punishing the hero for not managing to save everyone?
 
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Pug:
Out of fear of harming someone’s conscience, I think it is generally a good idea to avoid telling someone that X is a sin if the Church hasn’t said X is a sin. To my knowledge, the Church has not come out and said you can’t take the pill or any other medication in the type of circumstances discussed here; rather, you have HV indicating one **can **take the pill in some circumstances.

Have you searched all of the CA answers on the question? I recall one that actually touched on the abortion reasoning. I’ll try to search and link it.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=30815
Yes. My post above agrees with your post and with the link to Michele Arnold’s answer.

It is interesting that good Catholic’s have different takes on this situation. Some say that the risk of spontaneous abortion makes therapeutic use of the pill disproportionate. Others say that the risk is proportionate and therefore morally justifiable. Unfortunately, there does not seem to be a definitive answer here.

I’m still not sure where I fall on this one!
 
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buffalo:
Knowlingly taking a hormonal agent that is designed to prevent conception is against our teachings…
As noted in other posts, this statement is simply not true. If the hormonal agent is taken for a legitimate medical purpose and the contraceptive or abortive side effect is truly unintended, then the use of such medicine is NOT against our teachings.
 
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Catholic2003:
I admit to not seeing the difference, which is why I’m trying to find out more about this. Egg and sperm meet, conception occurs, a zygote is formed, the zygote fails to implant, the zygote dies in a spontaneous abortion. If a women is ingesting chemicals, and these chemicals have the overall effect of reducing the rate of spontaneous abortion, why does it make any sense to call these chemicals “abortifacents” solely because they do not reduce the rate of spontaneous abortion to zero?

Here is an analogy that may help you understand what I’m thinking. Five people are about to die in a burning building. A hero goes into the building and saves four of them. Is that hero now a murderer for having failed to save the fifth person? Would the hero have behaved morally by staying uninvolved and letting all five die?

No question there. But the sin of contraception and the sin of abortion are two different sins, and I would like to understand how to distinguish the two. For example, the sin of abortion carries the penalty of automatic excommunication.

I don’t follow the significance of the term “induced”. This 1,894,620 number is the total number of spontaneous abortions that occur annully in users of the pill. It is not zero. However, if a similarly-sized population of non-pill-users would have 7 million spontaneous abortions, then isn’t this just punishing the hero for not managing to save everyone?
You are proposing the pill is the “hero”?
 
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Ham1:
As noted in other posts, this statement is simply not true. If the hormonal agent is taken for a legitimate medical purpose and the contraceptive or abortive side effect is truly unintended, then the use of such medicine is NOT against our teachings.
I stand by the statement. When one has full knowledge that taking a hormonal agent to block procreation it is against our teachings and a sin.
 
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buffalo:
I stand by the statement. When one has full knowledge that taking a hormonal agent to block procreation it is against our teachings and a sin.
Well, that’s simply incorrect as is noted in Humanae Vitae. If a medicine causes AS A SIDE EFFECT a lack of fertility or inability to conceive, it can be morally justified according to the principle of double effect. Obviously, the intent cannot be contraception, it must be a side effect and not the purpose fo taking the medication. Let me give you an example of this…

A mother who is 6 months pregnant has serious cancer that requires immediate chemotherapy. She can accept that chemotherapy EVEN THOUGH that chemotherapy will have the unintended (even though known) effect of causing the death of her baby. She can do this because the act is taking chemotherapy, the intention is to cure her disease, and the unfortunate side effect is the death of the baby which could be viewed as proportionate because it is saving the life of the mother.

I hope this helps to clarify things for you.
 
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Ham1:
Well, that’s simply incorrect as is noted in Humanae Vitae. If a medicine causes AS A SIDE EFFECT a lack of fertility or inability to conceive, it can be morally justified according to the principle of double effect. Obviously, the intent cannot be contraception, it must be a side effect and not the purpose fo taking the medication. Let me give you an example of this…

A mother who is 6 months pregnant has serious cancer that requires immediate chemotherapy. She can accept that chemotherapy EVEN THOUGH that chemotherapy will have the unintended (even though known) effect of causing the death of her baby. She can do this because the act is taking chemotherapy, the intention is to cure her disease, and the unfortunate side effect is the death of the baby which could be viewed as proportionate because it is saving the life of the mother.

I hope this helps to clarify things for you.
I understood the side effect position from the beginning. Read my statement carefully. Your chemotherapy example shows that the mother has no real choice. I am maintaining that there are alternatives to the pill and if one knows that and still chooses the abortifacient that is an issue.
 
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buffalo:
You are proposing the pill is the “hero”?
Not morally, of course not.

Maybe I should step back a second. My understanding is that the classification of the pill as an abortifacient is a scientific determination, not a moral determination. That is, whether the pill is being used morally for menstrual problems, or being used immorally as a contraceptive, the physical effects of the pill on the woman’s body, in and of themselves, make the pill an abortifacient.

If this is the case, then making an analogy to a hero is not an issue, because this is a scientific determination not related to matters of morality.

If the hero analogy doesn’t work, how about a related question. Suppose a women had five miscarriages in the course of a year, and she goes to the doctor for help. The doctor has a pill which makes the uterine lining more open to implantation, so that a zygote has a 75% chance of implanting as opposed to a 50% chance for a women not taking any medication. Would this pill be also classified as an abortifacient because of the 3.5 million spontaneous abortions that would occur annually in a population of 19 million users?
 
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buffalo:
I understood the side effect position from the beginning. Read my statement carefully. Your chemotherapy example shows that the mother has no real choice. I am maintaining that there are alternatives to the pill and if one knows that and still chooses the abortifacient that is an issue.
Ok. I agree that if there are other viable alternatives, that would be correct. At issue, is whether it is theoretically possible for one to use a medicine that has a side effect of contraception. Whether this situation truly exists or not, I don’t know, I’m not a doctor. But the point is that it is possible that one could morally use such a drug of there were no other alternatives.
 
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Ham1:
Ok. I agree that if there are other viable alternatives, that would be correct. At issue, is whether it is theoretically possible for one to use a medicine that has a side effect of contraception. Whether this situation truly exists or not, I don’t know, I’m not a doctor. But the point is that it is possible that one could morally use such a drug of there were no other alternatives.
I think we are pretty well on our way to an understanding. One point - it is common knowledge that lazy OBGYN’s over prescibe the use of the pill to solve non-life threatening conditions that in the past must have been tolerated by woman and then justify this by claiming it’s medically necessary. Is the patient also justifying it as a necessary medical condition conveniently pushing aside the abortifacient posssibilities?

As the Pope said suffering has a purpose. It purifies the soul.
 
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Catholic2003:
I admit to not seeing the difference, which is why I’m trying to find out more about this. Egg and sperm meet, conception occurs, a zygote is formed, the zygote fails to implant, the zygote dies in a spontaneous abortion. If a women is ingesting chemicals, and these chemicals have the overall effect of reducing the rate of spontaneous abortion, why does it make any sense to call these chemicals “abortifacents” solely because they do not reduce the rate of spontaneous abortion to zero?
The point is that the woman is not doing anything to cause the spontaneous abortion and would grieve the loss of the new life if she knew of it. Artificial birth control thins out the endometrium and makes it nearly impossible for a new life to implant itself, thereby causing the abortion. I don’t see how you figure that they reduce the rate of abortions (unless you are figuring one of the other two ways the pill works is backup, but even still, it increases the risk of abortion if fertilization takes place). Even if the woman is taking pills as medication, it happens nonetheless. My personal opinion is that taking the chance of that happening is not worth the risk- I would never resort to taking the pill for any condition because there are alternatives. Whatever anyone on behalf of Church teaching says, we don’t know how God will hold us accountable for that life if other options in treating a medical condition could have been taken.

:confused: I can’t seem to understand the preoccupation with this issue. Making up hypothetical situations to justify using something against Church teaching is dangerous ground in my opinion. Unless you are in some of the hypothetical situations and this topic is relevent to you, then I can’t see being this adament about it. And if you are in this situation, an answer should not be sought through this forum. I tend to think that these subjects are best left up to people and their clergy on a private basis when these situations become relevent to them. Debating these kinds of personal issues becomes redundant. There’s always a *“but what if…” *to be added to any hypothetical situation and the bottome line is that ABC should be avoided because it offends our Lord. There are so many other treatments available for any condition in which the pill can be prescribed. By debating that ABC is perfectly fine for medicinal purposes, someone who gets it prescribed for acne will think it’s perfectly fine. It also opens the door to someone tricking themselves into thinking it is morally okay to use for such petty reasons, even if they desire the contraceptive effect. :tsktsk:

By the way, I’m curious to know if the majority taking part in this discussion are women or men.:hmmm:
 
I don’t doubt that there are many who unjustly use the pill under “therapeutic reasons.” Hopefully, it’s use can be avoided as much as possible. However, the discussion of whether it is possible helps to define more clearly the structure of the moral act. It helps us to understand how and why the Church teaches what she teaches. From a theological and philosophical standpoint, these discussions help to educate us as Catholics and make us better apologists. Usually, issues in real life are complex and it’s good to be able to dissect those issues in order to uncover the truth.

So, I really disagree that “dumbing down” the issue to something simple is not particularly helpful.
 
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buffalo:
I think we are pretty well on our way to an understanding. One point - it is common knowledge that lazy OBGYN’s over prescibe the use of the pill to solve non-life threatening conditions that in the past must have been tolerated by woman and then justify this by claiming it’s medically necessary. Is the patient also justifying it as a necessary medical condition conveniently pushing aside the abortifacient posssibilities?

As the Pope said suffering has a purpose. It purifies the soul.
I agree wholeheartedly! This really underscores the need for more truly Catholic physicians.
 
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NFPfamily:
. I don’t see how you figure that they reduce the rate of abortions (unless you are figuring one of the other two ways the pill works is backup, but even still, it increases the risk of abortion if fertilization takes place).
Fertilizations take place that do not implant in women who are not on the pill. I don’t know the numbers, and can therefore not speak specifically to the issue. However, I can step through a logical explanation as to how it is possible that it may be the case that less abortions (meaning in this case, a fertilization that does not implant) occur.

This is not a perfect example, but here goes. Say you live in a neigborhood with gang activity and occasional driveby shootings. The chance that you would get shot is a low percentage as an innocent bystander. So now, let’s say you move away and after that time the gang activity has increased 20 fold, but you still visit friends on occasion in the old neighborhood. Is it possible that you are less likely to be shot over a given span of time? Yes. Now each individual time you are there, the chance of being shot is higher now, than when you lived there, but since it is not often you are there, it could probably be less.

Back to the fertilization (I don’t know the numbers, but here is the basic premise). Say 5% of normal (“non-pill”) fertilizations do not implant, and are thus “aborted”. Now, say, due to the thinning of the uterine wall, this happens 30% of the time (or 6 times as likely). If fertilization occurred at a rate of less than 1/6th of the time as “non-pill” unions, then it is follows that there would actually be less fertilizations that do not result in implantation in a women on the pill (presumably for medical reasons).

This would not rationalize taking the pill, obviously, but would only seek to neutralize the argument of less fertilized eggs being implanted in women on the pill whose intent is not to contracept.
 
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jmv:
Fertilizations take place that do not implant in women who are not on the pill. I don’t know the numbers, and can therefore not speak specifically to the issue. However, I can step through a logical explanation as to how it is possible that it may be the case that less abortions (meaning in this case, a fertilization that does not implant) occur.

This is not a perfect example, but here goes. Say you live in a neigborhood with gang activity and occasional driveby shootings. The chance that you would get shot is a low percentage as an innocent bystander. So now, let’s say you move away and after that time the gang activity has increased 20 fold, but you still visit friends on occasion in the old neighborhood. Is it possible that you are less likely to be shot over a given span of time? Yes. Now each individual time you are there, the chance of being shot is higher now, than when you lived there, but since it is not often you are there, it could probably be less.

Back to the fertilization (I don’t know the numbers, but here is the basic premise). Say 5% of normal (“non-pill”) fertilizations do not implant, and are thus “aborted”. Now, say, due to the thinning of the uterine wall, this happens 30% of the time (or 6 times as likely). If fertilization occurred at a rate of less than 1/6th of the time as “non-pill” unions, then it is follows that there would actually be less fertilizations that do not result in implantation in a women on the pill (presumably for medical reasons).

This would not rationalize taking the pill, obviously, but would only seek to neutralize the argument of less fertilized eggs being implanted in women on the pill whose intent is not to contracept.
I addressed this line of thought in my pp. I stated as far as fertilized eggs were concerned, or new life as I stated, the risk of aborting this new life is greater while on bc. I was not talking about the risk of fertilization itself.
 
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Ham1:
I don’t doubt that there are many who unjustly use the pill under “therapeutic reasons.” Hopefully, it’s use can be avoided as much as possible. However, the discussion of whether it is possible helps to define more clearly the structure of the moral act. It helps us to understand how and why the Church teaches what she teaches. From a theological and philosophical standpoint, these discussions help to educate us as Catholics and make us better apologists. Usually, issues in real life are complex and it’s good to be able to dissect those issues in order to uncover the truth.

So, I really disagree that “dumbing down” the issue to something simple is not particularly helpful.
I understand your point, but my caution is that if our discussions lead someone to sin, then that’s a terrible sin we are committing. I don’t think that this is a black and white issue, which is why I commented about all the fabricated stories popping up. This is a personal issue that some people have to face and should seek out help from their Church and hopefully not go by some of the suggestions here. My point in all of this is that if a Dr. prescribes hormonal therapy resulting in contraceptive side effects, that other treatments should be sought from Catholic doctors (who apply their faith to their medical practice). I never said to dumb down the issue; I believe that the issue is far too complex to dissect in a general way because of the risk of leading someone to sin. That is why I mentioned people needing to seek this out on an individual situation basis.
 
NFPfamily said:
:confused: I can’t seem to understand the preoccupation with this issue. Making up hypothetical situations to justify using something against Church teaching is dangerous ground in my opinion.

There may be those who think that Catholic moral teaching is a random collection of arbitrary rules to be followed without thinking, but I am not one of them. I believe that Catholic moral theology is based on meaningful principles, and that hypothetical situations can be effectively used to more clearly define these principles.
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NFPfamily:
By the way, I’m curious to know if the majority taking part in this discussion are women or men.:hmmm:
I’m a man, and my interest in this discussion is purely academic, as it is not practically relevant in my personal circumstances.
 
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