Question about The Society of Saint Pius X

[Baraq]

Can someone tell me what they stand for? Ive read their website, are those beliefs they claim accurate? if so, why are so many so concerned?

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

Can someone tell me what they stand for? Ive read their website, are those beliefs they claim accurate? if so, why are so many so concerned?

The Society of St Pius X refused to celebrate the Mass according to the liturgy approved by the Second Vatican Council. Their leader Lefevre, was a bishop, and the rights of bishops are quite complicated in canon law, so this in itself didn’t lead to automatic explusion from the Church. However Lefevre, fearing that he would die and leave the society without a bishop, consecrated three other bishops despite being instructed not to do so by Pope John Paul II. This was a clear act of disobedience for which he and the new bishops were excommunicated.

Any schism is a deep source of concern. The Holy Father really had no option but to act as he did, but it leaves the majority of the SSPX membership in a very unsatisfactory position according to the law of the Church. Their priests cannot give valid absolution in confession, for instance, which is a very real danger to anyone relying on that for salvation.

As for whether Lefebre was right or not, that is a separate issue. It is unlikely that matters would have come to this stage if there wasn’t at least something in what he said. Being right in your claims isn’t the same as being in the right in your actions.

 

[Nita]

Any schism is a deep source of concern. The Holy Father really had no option but to act as he did, but it leaves the majority of the SSPX membership in a very unsatisfactory position according to the law of the Church. Their priests cannot give valid absolution in confession, for instance, which is a very real danger to anyone relying on that for salvation.

Hi Malcolm,

Re underlined part: I was not aware of this restriction. Can you give a verifying source?

What about absolution in the schismatic Eastern Orthodox churches?
And, if their absolution is valid, why would it be different for the SSPX?

Nita

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Hi Malcolm,

Re underlined part: I was not aware of this restriction. Can you give a verifying source?

What about absolution in the schismatic Eastern Orthodox churches?
And, if their absolution is valid, why would it be different for the SSPX?

Nita

To witness a wedding or to forgive sins a priest must have faculties from the bishop of the diocese. It is my understanding that Eastern Orthodox bishops have jurisdiction over their dioceses; SSPX bishops do not.

 

[kleary]

Can someone tell me what they stand for? Ive read their website, are those beliefs they claim accurate? if so, why are so many so concerned?

The SSPX do not teach heresy. The priests and lay persons are not excommunicated, no matter what the liberals may tell you.

The Bishops however were ordained illicitly, without papal mandate. Due to the illicit ordination that makes the Bishops alone, though valid Bishops, “schismatic”.

The concern- is valid bishops- valid sacraments - valid ordinations - though schismatic solely due to the ordinations done by Archbishop Lefebvre. It is a bigger schism than the one in the 11’th century with the part of the Church that now calls itself “Orthodox”. This is because the schism is in the Roman Rite itself- using all the rituals that were in place before 1970 that put forth the Catholic Faith in total truth and unambiguousness.

Ken

 

[kleary]

Their priests cannot give valid absolution in confession, for instance, which is a very real danger to anyone relying on that for salvation.

I do not believe so. I say that the Sacrament of Penance is not made invalid by a priest operating in a Diocese that does not have faculties granted by the local Bishop. It may be “illicit” but never invalid.

If the Sacrament of Penance is indeed invalid, if administered by a priest who is operating in the Diocese who has not been granted faculties for the Sacrament by the local ordinary- please give us a quote from the Council of Trent- which described in detail the Sacrament of Penance.

Ken

 

[Gardening_Mommy]

The SSPX do not teach heresy. The priests and lay persons are not excommunicated, no matter what the liberals may tell you.

The Bishops however were ordained illicitly, without papal mandate. Due to the illicit ordination that makes the Bishops alone, though valid Bishops, “schismatic”.

I have many complaints about how the Vatican II reforms in the liturgy have been carried out and interpreted. Mass this morning was entirely to the tunes of Haugen and Haas. ick But I’m not leaving the Church or maligning the pope because I don’t like the music in my particular parish (sadly, this is the most liturgically correct parish in the area).

Heretics usually insist that they are correct and the pope is wrong. (Think Luther.)

All schismatics (like the illicitly ordained bishops) are de facto excommunitcated, by their own choice, because they have left the one true Church. Those who choose to follow them (the SSPX laity) become schismatics as well.

If you teach that an approved council should not be obeyed or respected (even on the pathetic claim that it was “pastoral” and not “dogmatic”, whatever THAT means), you are teaching heresy. The SSPX certainly teaches this about Vatican II, hence, the SSPX teaches heresy.

If you insist on being schismatic and heretical, at least have the guts to say so.

As one of my very, very conservative friends said about her friends at the local Latin-only parish (she splits her time between our Novus Ordo parish and the local Tridentine parish) who lean in a distinctly SSPX direction, "Gee, you sound like my Protestant friends: ‘I know better than the pope.’ "

 

[jj2011]

I do not believe so. I say that the Sacrament of Penance is not made invalid by a priest operating in a Diocese that does not have faculties granted by the local Bishop. It may be “illicit” but never invalid.

If the Sacrament of Penance is indeed invalid, if administered by a priest who is operating in the Diocese who has not been granted faculties for the Sacrament by the local ordinary- please give us a quote from the Council of Trent- which described in detail the Sacrament of Penance.

Ken

In common error the church supplies jurisdiction. Has anybody considered writing or e-mailing Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos [Prefect, PCED] for a clarification?

 

[TNT]

To witness a wedding or to forgive sins a priest must have faculties from the bishop of the diocese. It is my understanding that Eastern Orthodox bishops have jurisdiction over their dioceses; SSPX bishops do not.

Huh?
When exactly did that happened and who performed the issuance of faculties?
Really, if yur in a state of schism, how do you obtain faculties? The SSPX /SSPV want to know, I’m sure.

 

[Icarus210]

To all the ppl who think SSPX is non valid… I became a catholic through them 4 years ago. (2 years catechism plus confirmation from Bishop Williamson.

I have been to 2 NO masses which really did nothing for me in the sence of being an ex Anglican there was no difference…and the last one I went to the priest gave a “common absolution” to the whole congregation… So I never went back there.

1 question for all you experts

Am I a catholic? or a catholic in Schism, or an Illicit catholic… or still a heathen?

Waiting with baited breath.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Huh?
When exactly did that happened and who performed the issuance of faculties?
Really, if yur in a state of schism, how do you obtain faculties? The SSPX /SSPV want to know, I’m sure.

Interesting, because a few years ago at one of those Advent reconciliation services where everyone gets absolution just for showing up, (but are asked to go to individual confession later) our priest had the EO priest from a few towns over, come and help out to hear confessions. I’ve always wondered if they were valid. Maybe he shoulda just asked the SSPX priest.

 

[paramedicgirl]

To all the ppl who think SSPX is non valid… I became a catholic through them 4 years ago. (2 years catechism plus confirmation from Bishop Williamson.

I have been to 2 NO masses which really did nothing for me in the sence of being an ex Anglican there was no difference…and the last one I went to the priest gave a “common absolution” to the whole congregation… So I never went back there.

1 question for all you experts

Am I a catholic? or a catholic in Schism, or an Illicit catholic… or still a heathen?

Waiting with baited breath.

You sure you wanna go there Icarus? That’s like putting yourself in the line of fire and everyone’s got a fully loaded gun.

 

[bear06]

We have no idea who is and who is not schismatic. While we can’t point to specific people we can say that it is likely that there are priests and laity also in schism. Also, the marriages and confessions(except in danger of death) are invalid due to the jurisdictional problems.

This one letter from Ecclesia Dei Commission covers all of this:
latin-mass-society.org/laitysspx.htm

PONTIFICIA COMMISSIO

“ECCLESIA DEI”

Rome, 28th September 1999

Dear Mr. R,

With regard to the schismatic Society of St. Pius X we can say the following:

The priests of the Society of St. Pius X are validly ordained, but suspended, that is prohibited from exercising their priestly functions because they are not properly incardinated in a diocese or religious institute in full communion with the Holy See and also because those ordained after the episcopal ordinations were ordained by an excommunicated bishop. They are also excommunicated if they adhere to the schism. While up to now the Holy See has not defined what this adherence consists in, one could point to a wholesale condemnation of the Church since the Second Vatican Council and a refusal to be in communion with it. Further, it is likely that these priests, after eleven years in a society whose head is now an excommunicated bishop, effectively adhere to the schism.

Concretely this means that the Masses offered by the priests of the Society of St. Pius X are valid, but illicit i.e, contrary to Canon Law. The Sacraments of Penance and Matrimony however, require that the priest enjoys the faculties of the diocese or has proper delegation. Since that is not the case with these priests, these sacraments are invalid. It remains true, however, that, if the faithful are genuinely ignorant that the priests of the Society of St. Pius X do not have the proper faculty to absolve, the Church supplied these faculties so that the sacrament was valid (cf. Code of Canon Law c.144).

The situation of the faithful attending chapels of the Society of St. Pius X is more complicated. They may attend Mass there primarily because of an attraction to the earlier forms of the Roman Rite in which case they incur no penalty. The difficulty is that the longer they frequent these chapels, the more likely it is that they will slowly imbibe the schismatic mentality which stands in judgement of the Church and refuses submission to the Roman Pontiff and communion with the members of the Church subject to him. If that becomes the case, then it would seem that they adhere to the schism and are consequently excommunicated.

For these reasons this Pontifical Commission cannot encourage you to frequent the chapels of the Society of St. Pius X. On the other hand it would seem that you are among those who attend Mass in chapels of the Society of St. Pius X because of the reverence and devotion which they find there, because of their attraction to the traditional Latin Mass and not because they refuse submission to the Roman Pontiff or reject communion with the members of the Church subject to him. At the same time it must be admitted that this is an irregular situation, even if the circumstances which have caused it have come about through no fault of your own, and it should be remedied as soon as circumstances permit.

With prayerful best wishes I remain

Sincerely yours in Christ,

Msgr Camille Perl (Secretary)

 

[JKirkLVNV]

To all the ppl who think SSPX is non valid… I became a catholic through them 4 years ago. (2 years catechism plus confirmation from Bishop Williamson.

I have been to 2 NO masses which really did nothing for me in the sence of being an ex Anglican there was no difference…and the last one I went to the priest gave a “common absolution” to the whole congregation… So I never went back there.

1 question for all you experts

Am I a catholic? or a catholic in Schism, or an Illicit catholic… or still a heathen?

Waiting with baited breath.

No one can comment on your personal state. We don’t have the competance to do so. For me, it’s sufficient that the Vicar of Christ warned me to not to participate in their services.

The NO and the Anglican rite have common antecedents.

 

[bear06]

In common error the church supplies jurisdiction. Has anybody considered writing or e-mailing Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos [Prefect, PCED] for a clarification?

This really only works if the person hasn’t heard that they do not have jurisdiction.

 

[bear06]

You sure you wanna go there Icarus? That’s like putting yourself in the line of fire and everyone’s got a fully loaded gun.

This question has been asked by about 20 other people. You know that 99.9% of us are not going to declare anyone in schism. That said, I can say without a doubt that it is a possibility. It’s also possible there is no schism. We can only be wary of the SSPX.

 

[hosemonkey]

This question has been asked by about 20 other people. You know that 99.9% of us are not going to declare anyone in schism. That said, I can say without a doubt that it is a possibility. It’s also possible there is no schism. We can only be wary of the SSPX.

Right now.
Bishops-----excommunicated

Priests…suspended a divinis. No faculties means confessions and marriages invalid.

The people…not excommunicated, just in danger of invalid sacraments.

We attended SSPX chapel for five years, did a lot of research. Safest thing to do is to avoid SSPX chapels until the situation is regularized. The Holy See has thrown the door wide open, it is up to the SSPX to walk through. They have much to offer, pride and ego now stand in the way.

 

[paramedicgirl]

This question has been asked by about 20 other people. You know that 99.9% of us are not going to declare anyone in schism. That said, I can say without a doubt that it is a possibility. It’s also possible there is no schism. We can only be wary of the SSPX.

Nah, bear, you’re not one of the people pointing a gun.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Right now.
Bishops-----excommunicated

Priests…suspended a divinis. No faculties means confessions and marriages invalid.

The people…not excommunicated, just in danger of invalid sacraments.

We attended SSPX chapel for five years, did a lot of research. Safest thing to do is to avoid SSPX chapels until the situation is regularized. The Holy See has thrown the door wide open, it is up to the SSPX to walk through. They have much to offer, pride and ego now stand in the way.

I don’t know if the formal schism will end or not. I rather think it will depend on the SSPX bishops. I imagine a scenario in which loads of SSPX attendees simply stop going to Mass with them and start attending the Tridentine in communion with their lawful bishops (who probably could have won them back long ago if they had bent their necks to to the old Holy Father and done voluntarily what Pope Benedict has now had to force them to do). In the end, it may well be the SSPX “flock” that forces their shepherds back into the fold.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Right now.
Bishops-----excommunicated

Priests…suspended a divinis. No faculties means confessions and marriages invalid.

The people…not excommunicated, just in danger of invalid sacraments.

We attended SSPX chapel for five years, did a lot of research. Safest thing to do is to avoid SSPX chapels until the situation is regularized. The Holy See has thrown the door wide open, it is up to the SSPX to walk through. They have much to offer, pride and ego now stand in the way.

A post I agree with.