Question About Theft & Making Amends

[johnofdamascus]

Hi everyone,

I have a particular question about theft and making restitution for it. I would like opinions on this situation as I wait to talk to my regular confessor about it this week.

So, when I was younger and before I converted to Catholicism I stole a few items, mainly two textbooks from middle & high school. I have confessed this, but must make restitution for this, but I’ve encountered a few obstacles.

I’m not exactly sure I can return the books themselves (two books & two different schools) because I cannot anonymously mail them [postal regulations] or leave them at the schools or board of education without compromising my identity or worse. I also live a good 140 miles away from my hometown where the schools are.

I have thought about sending the BOE the amount of what the textbooks are worth now (they don’t use these textbooks anymore) anonymously. However, I would still be stuck with the actual stolen books, and I have no idea what to do about them.

Any ideas on how best to remedy this situation?

P.S.: On another note, when I worked for a store I stole a pen set which I found recently (and confessed) and returned the pen set in pen aisle to be found and for claims to be filed. Would that have fulfilled restitution in this case?

 

[bmullins]

As to the text books, if I were scared to have my identity known I would call the school and ask them if there were any students you could buy two books for or any books they were short on for the year, then buy two new text books that they are currently using. That way you are restoring the books while also giving something new in return.

As to the pen, it seems that you have returned it at least in a way that it is no longer in your possession. I would talk to my confessor about that.

 

[johnofdamascus]

As to the text books, if I were scared to have my identity known I would call the school and ask them if there were any students you could buy two books for or any books they were short on for the year, then buy two new text books that they are currently using. That way you are restoring the books while also giving something new in return.

That seems like a good option, but I would still be in the possession of stolen goods and keeping them would be a sin as well. And giving or selling them would be passing on stolen goods. That is my dilemma

 

[Leegal]

Hi everyone,

I have a particular question about theft and making restitution for it. I would like opinions on this situation as I wait to talk to my regular confessor about it this week.

So, when I was younger and before I converted to Catholicism I stole a few items, mainly two textbooks from middle & high school. I have confessed this, but must make restitution for this, but I’ve encountered a few obstacles.

I’m not exactly sure I can return the books themselves (two books & two different schools) because I cannot anonymously mail them [postal regulations] or leave them at the schools or board of education without compromising my identity or worse. I also live a good 140 miles away from my hometown where the schools are.

I have thought about sending the BOE the amount of what the textbooks are worth now (they don’t use these textbooks anymore) anonymously. However, I would still be stuck with the actual stolen books, and I have no idea what to do about them.

Any ideas on how best to remedy this situation?

P.S.: On another note, when I worked for a store I stole a pen set which I found recently (and confessed) and returned the pen set in pen aisle to be found and for claims to be filed. Would that have fulfilled restitution in this case?

Since the BOE does not use the books any longer, then an equivalent payment is in order. The books are now useless to the BOE. I assume if you can figure out a value based on a current edition of the same or like book, and pay that amount to the BOE, then the old books are now yours. Donate them; they are essentially outdated and of little use now.

You need to talk to your confessor about the pen. I’m not sure that leaving it somewhere to be found was the right thing to do. I think you should have gone up to the counter and admitted you had taken the pen set some time ago and recently found it and was returning it. Ask the priest, however you’ve already left the pen set. It’s restitution, but I don’t think all the good intent was fully realized. I think you were supposed to give the pen back to the proprietor or someone in charge. Again, ask the priest/confessor.

I know you probably feared legal responsibility.

 

[Leegal]

That seems like a good option, but I would still be in the possession of stolen goods and keeping them would be a sin as well. And giving or selling them would be passing on stolen goods. That is my dilemma

No, if you pay for replacement books – the books you have stolen are now yours. Check with the priest again, since you have to ask him about the return of the pen. I’m sure that if you give just payment for textbooks, you will be allowed to donate the books and they are no longer “stolen.”

 

[johnofdamascus]

Leegal, I think you are absolutely right. I will double check with my priest on all this to be sure.

I do a have a follow up question. I calculated the cost of both books to be a total of about $135. However, I am currently a full time college student with little income coming in. Would it be sinful to hold off paying the restitution to the BOE until I have the money?

Also, I think I will send the store the cost the pen set anonymously to be absolutely sure that restitution is paid in full.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Leegal, I think you are absolutely right. I will double check with my priest on all this to be sure.

I do a have a follow up question. I calculated the cost of both books to be a total of about $135. However, I am currently a full time college student with little income coming in. Would it be sinful to hold off paying the restitution to the BOE until I have the money?

Also, I think I will send the store the cost the pen set anonymously to be absolutely sure that restitution is paid in full.

It wouldn’t be sinful.

 

[Leegal]

Leegal, I think you are absolutely right. I will double check with my priest on all this to be sure.

I do a have a follow up question. I calculated the cost of both books to be a total of about $135. However, I am currently a full time college student with little income coming in. Would it be sinful to hold off paying the restitution to the BOE until I have the money?

Also, I think I will send the store the cost the pen set anonymously to be absolutely sure that restitution is paid in full.

Check with the priest about when you have to fulfill the penance of restitution. Did he tell you to do restitution; then you should not delay. I can’t tell you to hold off.

Possibly you could borrow the money from someone to get this obligation off your back and pay back the lender over time. Can your parents advance you $135? Or a trusted relative? Or ask the priest, under the circumstances, if you can pay it over a scheduled amount of time – but then you must adhere to what he says. Or find a quick job, helping someone move or a short term temporary assignment?

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Dear friend, regarding the pens,
as long as you returned them, that is enough.
Even if you had mailed the store owner a “donation” in the amount of the pens,
that would be enough.

You do NOT have to go to the store owner and “confess” to her that you
stole pens from her some time back.
God is forgiving, PEOPLE are MERCILESS.
Do not EVER do something like that, unless you are prepared to
have your life wrecked.

You do NOT have to risk wrecking your life, and harming your family,
in order to make restitution.
Also, if you are currently UNABLE to make restitution,
but WOULD if you COULD and IF you had the MEANS,
then that is good in the eyes of God.
Remember, the INTENTION of the heart counts just as much as the ACT ITSELF.
It applies to a HEARTFELT DEEP DESIRE TO commit adultery.
It also applies to a heartfelt desire to MAKE AMENDS.
If you want to in your heart, you have already done so.
What Jesus said about the desires of the heart cuts both ways,
not just for sins or crimes, but for the desire to make restitution too.
Some people seem unaware of that.
Now, if you are rolling in money, and REFUSE to pay back what you owe,
then that is a deliberate desire to not fulfill your responsibility. THAT would be wrong.

You are not required by God to voluntarily face “Legal Responsibility.”
If you WERE required by God to do so, the Church would REQUIRE YOU to do
so in the penance assigned to you in confession.
SInce the Church does NOT require it, that means that God does not.
The Church would not DARE tell you not to do something that God REQUIRES
that you do, especially not in confession.
ALSO, in some cases it would be unwise to pay back directly the person or group
you took something from. Unwise or even impossible sometimes. In that case,
you may prayerfully consider a proportionate amount and give it to a Catholic Ministry that helps fight crime by drawing people closer to the Lord, such as
dismasministry.org , which helps convert convicts, victims of crime, and convicts’ families, and the families of crime victims. And you also could help cleanse society by promoting Mary’s Rosary, which promotion itself would partly atone for your sin by helping save others from committing, and from being victims of, crimes. To promote Mary’s Rosary, google Holy Cross Family Ministries, and go to Family Rosary, and make a donation to provide Rosaries, free Rosaries, to people around the world.
That is FAR better than you, to cleanse your guilt, going to a store owner, confessing your guilt over the pens, and end up sitting in a rat infested jail where you will be subjected to filthy behavior, demonic influence, sodomy, fellatio, beatings, gang activity and a generally demonic atmosphere where you will lose your faith. That wouldn’t do ANYbody ANY good.

which

 

[johnofdamascus]

Check with the priest about when you have to fulfill the penance of restitution. Did he tell you to do restitution; then you should not delay. I can’t tell you to hold off.

Possibly you could borrow the money from someone to get this obligation off your back and pay back the lender over time. Can your parents advance you $135? Or a trusted relative? Or ask the priest, under the circumstances, if you can pay it over a scheduled amount of time – but then you must adhere to what he says. Or find a quick job, helping someone move or a short term temporary assignment?

Actually the priest I confessed to happened to be a temp priest while the regular priest was on vacation. He didn’t give me any penance or tell me to do restitution. I’m doing it on my own initiative.

As far as borrowing money, I’m not so sure I would be able to as my family and I are on rather hard times. I will ask my regular parish priest his advice when I see him this week. Hopefully a solution will present itself.

 

[johnofdamascus]

Also, if you are currently UNABLE to make restitution,
but WOULD if you COULD and IF you had the MEANS,
then that is good in the eyes of God.
Remember, the INTENTION of the heart counts just as much as the ACT ITSELF.
It applies to a HEARTFELT DEEP DESIRE TO commit adultery.
It also applies to a heartfelt desire to MAKE AMENDS.
If you want to in your heart, you have already done so.

Jaypeeto, thank you for your reply. I would like to ask if there is any Church documents that back up this? I ask because the Catechism says:

“2412. In virtue of commutative justice, reparation for injustice committed requires the restitution of stolen goods to their owner: … Those who, directly or indirectly, have taken possession of the goods of another, are obliged to make restitution of them, or to return the equivalent in kind or in money, if the goods have disappeared, as well as the profit or advantages their owner would have legitimately obtained from them.”

It seems pretty clear that intention and the action of restitution is required by justice.

 

[Leegal]

Actually the priest I confessed to happened to be a temp priest while the regular priest was on vacation. He didn’t give me any penance or tell me to do restitution. I’m doing it on my own initiative.

As far as borrowing money, I’m not so sure I would be able to as my family and I are on rather hard times. I will ask my regular parish priest his advice when I see him this week. Hopefully a solution will present itself.

I could not say since I had no idea what you had told the priest. Ask your regular confessor and he may allow you to pay over time since no prior instruction was given. Obviously, we cannot dispense penance here nor go against anything you might have been told.

I will pray that the regular priest, understanding your circumstances and that you are penitent, will allow you to pay over time,

God Bless; you are doing the right thing.

 

[CMatt25]

Actually the priest I confessed to happened to be a temp priest while the regular priest was on vacation. He didn’t give me any penance or tell me to do restitution. I’m doing it on my own initiative.

As far as borrowing money, I’m not so sure I would be able to as my family and I are on rather hard times. I will ask my regular parish priest his advice when I see him this week. Hopefully a solution will present itself.

If you were forgiven when you confessed and the priest didn’t give further direction, isn’t a visiting priest as qualified a confessor with the same power to forgive as the regular?

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

Jaypeeto, thank you for your reply. I would like to ask if there is any Church documents that back up this? I ask because the Catechism says:

“2412. In virtue of commutative justice, reparation for injustice committed requires the restitution of stolen goods to their owner: … Those who, directly or indirectly, have taken possession of the goods of another, are obliged to make restitution of them, or to return the equivalent in kind or in money, if the goods have disappeared, as well as the profit or advantages their owner would have legitimately obtained from them.”

It seems pretty clear that intention and the action of restitution is required by justice.

If you’re unable to, you can delay it, but you must be working at making restitution. (ie: saving up money, etc.)

As for returning stolen textbooks, you’re in luck. I can help you out with this one, as I used to have this goal in high school to “collect” as many textbooks as I could. In other words, I stole a pile of textbooks. At the end of high school, after graduation and after I got my report card, I returned the textbooks to the school. All I did was load them into an unmarked box, and drop it off at the office and told the secretary to give it to so and so. I never heard about, despite the secretary knowing who I was.

 

[Leegal]

If you’re unable to, you can delay it, but you must be working at making restitution. (ie: saving up money, etc.)

As for returning stolen textbooks, you’re in luck. I can help you out with this one, as I used to have this goal in high school to “collect” as many textbooks as I could. In other words, I stole a pile of textbooks. At the end of high school, after graduation and after I got my report card, I returned the textbooks to the school. All I did was load them into an unmarked box, and drop it off at the office and told the secretary to give it to so and so. I never heard about, despite the secretary knowing who I was.

The text books he would be returning would be outdated and no longer usable. He wants to replace them with equivalent value of present texts. He’s doing what his conscience dictates.

You can no longer send anything through the mails without a return address; it won’t be accepted nor delivered. After 9/11 and the Anthrax mailings of 2001 that has changed. He now is at a school 140 miles away from the two schools the books belonged to.

I think he’s thought this all out well beforehand and wants to do the right thing by his conscience.

 

[johnofdamascus]

If you were forgiven when you confessed and the priest didn’t give further direction, isn’t a visiting priest as qualified a confessor with the same power to forgive as the regular?

Yes, but I was making note that this was not my regular confessor or the one whom I would be talking to about the issue.

Originally Posted by Leegal
The text books he would be returning would be outdated and no longer usable. He wants to replace them with equivalent value of present texts.

I actually just listened to a homily about restitution and what all it requires. According to this homily I must return the text books along with whatever loss in profit there was.

In this particular case I’m not sure how to judge the profit as it would be education. There is the deprivation of text books, so I assume it would be about 11 years worth of profit, that would be about $1500 worth owed and for the pen set about 5 years, being about $100. In all honesty I would not be able to pay this for years.

 

[johnofdamascus]

I have given some thought about the full implication of the full amount of money due in restitution. It in all honesty it has caused me a panic attack, not only because of the amount due, but compounded by the fact I have absolutely no money to even begin to pay the debt and that I have student loan debts as well. The financial ruin that would come upon me and my family would pretty much leave us absolutely impoverished.

I have decided I am going to ask my confessor for permission and advice on whether I can return the text books to the BOE via post [including my address if need be] and the sum of what the pen set would have cost ($20) to Wal-Mart [without return address] with letters included explaining due to my financial situation I cannot repay full restitution for my crimes, that I am extremely sorry for what I’ve done, and beg for mercy and forgiveness that I cannot repay the full amount. I would just have to rely on their mercy and God’s that justice has been repaid to the fullest extent possible.

It is imperfect, I know, but it would be the best I could do.

 

[Leegal]

Yes, but I was making note that this was not my regular confessor or the one whom I would be talking to about the issue.

I actually just listened to a homily about restitution and what all it requires. According to this homily I must return the text books along with whatever loss in profit there was.

In this particular case I’m not sure how to judge the profit as it would be education. There is the deprivation of text books, so I assume it would be about 11 years worth of profit, that would be about $1500 worth owed and for the pen set about 5 years, being about $100. In all honesty I would not be able to pay this for years.

I think, and please speak to the priest about this, but that would apply if you had, for example, stolen a sum of money from another individual – money that they could have used, invested, saved and would have earned interest, maybe depriving them of needed money.

I think by sending the $135 to the BOE, the priest will find that to be acceptable because you are providing them with the funds for new books. When you tell him the books are 11 years out of date, he may say donate them to a second hand store or some such organization. But once you replace them, you can dispose of the old books. If he tells you to mail the old books back too, get in touch with me by PM and I can help with that. Same for the pen – the value of the item is not significant in that the store has not taken a huge loss and was not significantly deprived of doing business.

I think your duty is to pay the $135, and in the circumstances the priest may allow you time. The BOE is not going to collapse over these two books, however if you had stolen thousands of dollars from an employer, you would have denied him of the fruits of his livlihood. See the difference?

The priest may have another instruction on the pen since you did leave it back at the store. For now, do not go back to the store where you left the pen until you speak to the priest.

Don’t worry too much; it’s not as bad as you think. I think your obligation is for $135. The pen set cost $20 at the time?

I can tell you that interest on a debt varies by state and is not double so your calculations may be too high, and applies only if someone has a judgment against you. I think you have overestimated your obligations.

Please do not worry about this; you have not caused great harm. But do let me know how it goes. I’m sure it will work out to your satisfaction since you are interested in making restitution and I’m sure present market value of the books will be found to be sufficient restitution.

 

[marymary1975]

I have a suggestion. Why don’t you speak with your confessor and ask him if he can return the books? I know of cases of theft where the person has taken the stolen items to their confessor and the priest has returned them. I think that might work out well.

 

[CMatt25]

Yes, but I was making note that this was not my regular confessor or the one whom I would be talking to about the issue.

I understand he was not your regular confessor and didn’t give you penance or require restitution. I just didn’t understand if he forgave you and you were pardoned by God’s mercy, why your conscience is still so troubled? I would have thought any priest who has been given the power by Christ to forgive and retain sins, would have given penance if he had deemed it necessary for you. In any case, God blessings and His peace be with you.