Question about veiling

[Spoken4]

Okay, so I am going “back to basics” and that includes veiling when I go to Adoration or Mass. I’m in the Choir, as well. I have gone back to veiling at Masses when I do not sing with the Choir-- I wear a traditional black lace veil most of the time, but I have some little black lace chapel caps. I also have black hair.

Now, I asked our choir director about veiling or “capping”. She was fine with it, but apparently the pastor has a problem with the choir members “drawing attention” to themselves. No one else in the choir veils up, and very, very few of the other ladies in the congregation do, either. Both the pastor, and the director (who has to follow instructions from the pastor) have pretty much told me not to veil or cap even though a small black lace cap would pretty much hide in my black, thick hair and not be very obvious at all.

Allow me to reminisce for a bit… when I was a little girl, my mom and grandma used to cover their heads at church all the time. They didn’t necessarily wear a lacy mantilla; often, they would simply wear a thin, gauzy scarf. My mom always wore her hair in a bun, and sometimes she would wear a small snood over her bun. Sometimes they were quite decorative, especially at holiday times. Other ladies wore pretty hats or kerchiefs. My mom sewed a lot of my clothes, and when she made me a church dress, she would often make a matching kerchief, which I would wear to Mass if I didn’t wear a scarf like Grandma or a chapel cap or mantilla. I even remember the Kleenex and bobby pins in a pinch! Yes, I veiled up as a little girl, even in our “NO” church! I’m of the transitional generation. It wasn’t until after I graduated from high school that I dropped my veil.

Now, that brings me to a question. I want to cover again, but I don’t want to upset Father by “drawing attention” to myself and cause strife between him and the Director (who agrees with me but can’t allow traditional veiling) while I’m fulfilling my Choir ministry. I still veil in the traditional manner when I attend Adoration or another Mass where I am not singing in the Choir, and Father has no beefs about that-- only when we are serving in some capacity, as none of the other “servers” like Lectors, Choir, EM’s or even female Altar Servers are covered. However, they SHOULD be, IMO!

Do snoods, or even headbands (like one can buy in the hair accessories aisle at the local pharmacy or fashion store) satisfy the covering requirement-- which has never been dropped (only the actual practice has)? If so, then I can cover discreetly and simply look, to the casual observer and to Father, as if I’m simply styling my hair in order to keep it out of my face. Basically, it would be a “token covering”.

Any other suggestions?

 

[YoungTradCath]

How can the choir members be calling attention to themselves? Are you in front of everyone? Many, if not most, Catholic churches have choir lofts, and practically no one except the priest celebrant can see the choir members. So unless you’re directly in front of people, I don’t see how this would be a problem. It sounds like backwards modernist, tradition-hater thinking.

Anyways, if he tells you that you can’t, then I guess you can’t.

 

[Spoken4]

How can the choir members be calling attention to themselves? Are you in front of everyone? Many, if not most, Catholic churches have choir lofts, and practically no one except the priest celebrant can see the choir members. So unless you’re directly in front of people, I don’t see how this would be a problem. It sounds like backwards modernist, tradition-hater thinking.

Anyways, if he tells you that you can’t, then I guess you can’t.

Our church is undergoing renovations and we’re temporarily holding Mass in the school gym. We are pretty much in front of everyone for the time being, because of space considerations. When we go back to the main church in Advent, the choir area is off to the side, but at floor level next to the far right side of the congregation and pews. In fact, there’s even overflow seating behind us where it seems as though every parent of a screaming baby or restless toddler decides to sit-- but that’s another matter!. We are rather visible to the congregation even there. It’s not like we’re standing next to the altar or anything, but we aren’t in an elevated loft or other “discreet” area. Unfortunately, the last few churches I’ve belonged to had no elevated choir loft, except for one. I WISH we had a loft!

~Spoken4

 

[YoungTradCath]

Our church is undergoing renovations and we’re temporarily holding Mass in the school gym. We are pretty much in front of everyone for the time being, because of space considerations. When we go back to the main church in Advent, the choir area is off to the side, but at floor level next to the far right side of the congregation and pews. In fact, there’s even overflow seating behind us where it seems as though every parent of a screaming baby or restless toddler decides to sit-- but that’s another matter!. We are rather visible to the congregation even there. It’s not like we’re standing next to the altar or anything, but we aren’t in an elevated loft or other “discreet” area. Unfortunately, the last few churches I’ve belonged to had no elevated choir loft, except for one. I WISH we had a loft!

~Spoken4

Ah, I see. Exceedingly poor architecture seems to pervade our newer churches. I never understood having a choir in the front. Just one more intentional distraction. Well, I guess you’re in a pickle.

 

[silicasandra]

Okay, so I am going “back to basics” and that includes veiling when I go to Adoration or Mass. I’m in the Choir, as well. I have gone back to veiling at Masses when I do not sing with the Choir-- I wear a traditional black lace veil most of the time, but I have some little black lace chapel caps. I also have black hair.

Now, I asked our choir director about veiling or “capping”. She was fine with it, but apparently the pastor has a problem with the choir members “drawing attention” to themselves. No one else in the choir veils up, and very, very few of the other ladies in the congregation do, either. Both the pastor, and the director (who has to follow instructions from the pastor) have pretty much told me not to veil or cap even though a small black lace cap would pretty much hide in my black, thick hair and not be very obvious at all.

Allow me to reminisce for a bit… when I was a little girl, my mom and grandma used to cover their heads at church all the time. They didn’t necessarily wear a lacy mantilla; often, they would simply wear a thin, gauzy scarf. My mom always wore her hair in a bun, and sometimes she would wear a small snood over her bun. Sometimes they were quite decorative, especially at holiday times. Other ladies wore pretty hats or kerchiefs. My mom sewed a lot of my clothes, and when she made me a church dress, she would often make a matching kerchief, which I would wear to Mass if I didn’t wear a scarf like Grandma or a chapel cap or mantilla. I even remember the Kleenex and bobby pins in a pinch! Yes, I veiled up as a little girl, even in our “NO” church! I’m of the transitional generation. It wasn’t until after I graduated from high school that I dropped my veil.

Now, that brings me to a question. I want to cover again, but I don’t want to upset Father by “drawing attention” to myself and cause strife between him and the Director (who agrees with me but can’t allow traditional veiling) while I’m fulfilling my Choir ministry. I still veil in the traditional manner when I attend Adoration or another Mass where I am not singing in the Choir, and Father has no beefs about that-- only when we are serving in some capacity, as none of the other “servers” like Lectors, Choir, EM’s or even female Altar Servers are covered. However, they SHOULD be, IMO!

Do snoods, or even headbands (like one can buy in the hair accessories aisle at the local pharmacy or fashion store) satisfy the covering requirement-- which has never been dropped (only the actual practice has)? If so, then I can cover discreetly and simply look, to the casual observer and to Father, as if I’m simply styling my hair in order to keep it out of my face. Basically, it would be a “token covering”.

Any other suggestions?

I am not an expert on veiling (I don’t currently do it but have thought about it), but even if a headband doesn’t “technically” satisfy what you feel is an important devotion, it might offer a kind of compromise between your priest’s wishes and your own when you are in front of everybody. Even a large barrette could work, and then it’s attached to your hair so it’s serving a “practical” purpose.

They also have headbands that you can alter to change their width - you could start out narrow and work your way to a wider band that covers more of your hair over several weeks. I’ve actually seen women come to Mass this way and widen the band before they enter the church or after they sit in the pews (usually the latter is when they are dealing with children.)

 

[silicasandra]

Ah, I see. Exceedingly poor architecture seems to pervade our newer churches. I never understood having a choir in the front. Just one more intentional distraction. Well, I guess you’re in a pickle.

We have an older church and our choir is in the front, but they are behind the altar and organ so you can only see the last few members in any row.

Plus, they can be a “good” distraction - they are, after all, always participating appropriately in the liturgy (and if they’re not, that’s more of a problem than just where they sit!)

 

[Spoken4]

At my last parish, there wasn’t a “choir” at all… just some folks who played guitar and occasionally the tambourine. Sometimes they had maracas and other ‘ethnic’ instrumentseek:!), but a traditional choir? Gads, no! There was an organ, used only rarely. As the congregation’s demographics changed, so did the language of the Mass-- to Spanish. No, I’m not “anti-Spanish” but English is my primary language and I left for this parish, where most Masses are in English. And we have a “traditional” Choir. We even sing many Latin pieces, including the beautiful Pange Lingua on Holy Thursday, the Veni Creator, and many others as seasonally and liturgically appropriate. So there’s at least a token effort-- more than I can say for a number of other churches in this area.

In fact, at one church where I went to Mass on two occasions, we saw plenty of cleavage and thigh-- and these were the Lectors and EM’s!. Amy Grant songs were in abundance. There was plenty of hand-holding and socializing before and during Mass. It was bizarre, to say the least! And the architecture? Horrid! The altar and “sanctuary” was stark. The hymnals were ring binders filled with xeroxed copies of what seemed to be pop tunes written in the “key of dolphin”, and virtually unsingable. I found myself longing for Haugen and Haas and the Foley abominations… sad, isn’t it? I thought I was at a rock concert, not Mass!

Of course, there was not a veil or even a Rosary to be seen.

EDITED…

Is your face covered during this veiling? Like Muslim women in a burka? I can see why the director would think it is a distraction, if so. In “groups” like choirs or armies or sports teams or whatever…there is an underlying understanding that members should have a uniformity of appearance of the collective group.

No, just a simple black lace mantilla, or a black lace chapel cap pinned at the back or top of my head-- like this

http://www.headcoverings-by-devorah.com/Adah_BlackScallopLaceMimkhatah4.jpg

or the “little black doily” on top of my head. As I said, I have thick, black hair so it wouldn’t be real obvious but still…

~Spoken4

 

[TrueLight]

Is your face covered during this veiling? Like Muslim women in a burka?

LOl why would her face be covered that way? That is not common among Catholic women who veil.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I am not an expert on veiling (I don’t currently do it but have thought about it), but even if a headband doesn’t “technically” satisfy what you feel is an important devotion, it might offer a kind of compromise between your priest’s wishes and your own when you are in front of everybody. Even a large barrette could work, and then it’s attached to your hair so it’s serving a “practical” purpose.

They also have headbands that you can alter to change their width - you could start out narrow and work your way to a wider band that covers more of your hair over several weeks. I’ve actually seen women come to Mass this way and widen the band before they enter the church or after they sit in the pews (usually the latter is when they are dealing with children.)

Good idea.

We have an older church and our choir is in the front, but they are behind the altar and organ so you can only see the last few members in any row.

Plus, they can be a “good” distraction - they are, after all, always participating appropriately in the liturgy (and if they’re not, that’s more of a problem than just where they sit!)

Your organ is behind the altar? Nah, no distraction is good, imo. Just some extra pageantry to think about.

I don’t get how the OP’s pastor doesn’t want the choir members to stand out, yet they are forced to be in the front of the church regardless of if they are in their permanent or temporary venue. Seems contradictory.

 

[Spoken4]

YTC, even in my parish in suburban Chicago, we were pretty much “up front”. We also wore choir robes… nice ones, at that. Some of us did “cap”, but the veils were sometimes in the way and sometimes draped over our choir music scores. It ws more out of practicality than anything else that I capped then. As I was unmarried at the time, I wore a white lace chapel cap and there was no real problem. Occasionally, I even just bobby pinned a lightweight piece of cloth into my hair-- a variation on the Kleenex! .A few folks asked about the chapel caps, but more out of curiosity since most were used to seeing the mantilla/veil. But now, since fewer and fewer ladies even bother to veil up as the older ladies who ALWAYS veiled up are passing on, it seems even more noticeable.

EDITED: I may go with something like this… it looks more like a “veil” or a cap, but still doesn’t stand out inappropriately. And, I’ll keep wearing the traditional veils or caps when I’m at other masses where the choir isn’t singing. I think this will work out as a compromise, and I can wear colors to coordinate with my outfit, or just do basic black or white.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Maybe I could even occasionally wear a full headwrap scarf (not a hijab, just a fashionable scarf) and claim “Bad hair day”!

~Spoken4

 

[silicasandra]

Good idea.

Your organ is behind the altar? Nah, no distraction is good, imo. Just some extra pageantry to think about.

I don’t get how the OP’s pastor doesn’t want the choir members to stand out, yet they are forced to be in the front of the church regardless of if they are in their permanent or temporary venue. Seems contradictory.

I don’t find it distracting at all, and I actually make sure to attend the Mass where the choir sings because the beautiful singing helps me pay better attention to the Mass. Music is not a distraction for some. Also, where our choir sits is also kind of a “day chapel” - that is where people sit when they attend Daily Mass. The other side, with way more pews, is for Sundays.

Also, it’s not so much the pastor doesn’t want the people to notice the choir at all as it is that he doesn’t want them to notice individual choir members - instead, seeing them as a unified group singing the Mass. It’s a good idea, but taking it a bit too far in this instance (at least from what I can tell.)

 

[Spoken4]

Also, it’s not so much the pastor doesn’t want the people to notice the choir at all as it is that he doesn’t want them to notice individual choir members - instead, seeing them as a unified group singing the Mass. It’s a good idea, but taking it a bit too far in this instance (at least from what I can tell.)

^^^ This.

 

[DesertSister62]

Spoken4 said;

"…In fact, at one church where I went to Mass on two occasions, we saw plenty of cleavage and thigh-- and these were the Lectors and EM’s!. Amy Grant songs were in abundance. There was plenty of hand-holding and socializing before and during Mass. It was bizarre, to say the least! And the architecture? Horrid! The altar and “sanctuary” was stark. The hymnals were ring binders filled with xeroxed copies of what seemed to be pop tunes written in the “key of dolphin”, and virtually unsingable. I found myself longing for Haugen and Haas and the Foley abominations… sad, isn’t it? I thought I was at a rock concert, not Mass!

Of course, there was not a veil or even a Rosary to be seen."

Dear “Spoken4,”

I wear a long veil that I purchase from a Mennonite lady online who makes all different kinds of headcoverings… I have felt “called” by the Lord to wear my veil and have done so, daily, for several years now. As with you, I have run into disapproval with my priest. I never present myself as a Sister and if asked I immediatelyexplain… I have had members of the older generation get nostalgic as they tell me how much they like to see a woman wear a veil as many used to in days gone by. I have also experienced criticism from a religious sister that we had here for a time, which seemed ridiculous to me as so many religious sisters have chosen not to wear a veil any more. For me it simply says that I have covered my head in obedience to God.

I guess I have to refer to what you said above and ask WHY priests don’t want us wearing a veil when others with cleavage showing, short skirts to mid thigh or so tight that they can barely walk, bra-less and/or see through blouses are allowed to draw all the attention to themselves that they wish and I have never heard that addressed from the pulpit or heard any priest say anything about it. Would it not be better to have a positive witness?

Not to cause any problems, but I have to wonder just how bad it would be to have people “ask” about your “veil” and listen to your explanation for it? I mean, there is so little opportunity to make a positive witness that I would think that our priests would welcome the positive (name removed by moderator)ut into their parishioners.

However, these are just my thoughts;…

 

[amgp]

Excellent comments from DesertSister62.

Do each of the choir members wear the exact same outfit in the exact same color? Are each of them the exact same size and shape with the exact same hair style, color, and length? Is everybody’s skin tone exactly the same, with the exact same makeup, lipstick, etc?

If not, then I’d say that your pastor just doesn’t like veiling, and this has nothing to do with “drawing attention” to oneself. He has other issues…
(I’d look for another parish.)

 

[Jesus_123]

+The practice of headcovering is a :bible1: Scriptural one revealed through St. Paul to the **New Testament **Church . . . and throughout centuries upon centuries upon centuries of Catholicism in . . . Sacred Tradition . . . it has been a holy practice of the Catholic Church. Though it is no longer required by Church law . . . this practice is still very much alive . . . in Christendom and in the Catholic Church . . . not just in the lives of habited nuns and sisters . . . but among lay people . . . in fact there has been an increased interest in obedience to this holy recommended practice among many Catholic women of all ages in this day and age . . .

Whenever there are choirs at the EWTN televised Holy Prayer of the Mass . . . there are always several women who have their heads veiled with chapel veils . . . there have been several threads posted on the renewal of this practice within our Holy Mother Church here at Catholic Answers Forum . . . below is the basis in Sacred :bible1: Scripture for this holy practice . . .

**. . . :coffeeread: . . .**THE HOLY :bible1: BIBLE
I Corinthians 11:1-16

[1] Be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ. [2] Now I praise you, brethren, that in all things you are mindful of me: and keep my ordinances as I have delivered them to you. [3] But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. [4] Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered, disgraceth his head. [5] But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered, disgraceth her head: for it is all one as if she were shaven.

[6] “For if a woman be not covered, let her be shorn. But if it be a shame to a woman to be shorn or made bald, let her cover her head.” The man indeed ought not to cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of the man. [8] For the man is not of the woman, but the woman of the man. [9] For the man was not created for the woman, but the woman for the man. [10] **Therefore ought the woman to have a power over her head, because of the angels :angel1: . **[11] But yet neither is the man without the woman, nor the woman without the man, in the Lord. [12] For as the woman is of the man, so also is the man by the woman: but all things of God. [13] You yourselves judge: doth it become a woman, to pray unto God uncovered? [14] Doth not even nature itself teach you, that a man indeed, if he nourish his hair, it is a shame unto him? [15] But if a woman nourish her hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering.

As a member of the choir . . . If you truly personally feel under profound conviction and led of the Sweet Spirit of our Holy God to obediently veil during the Holy Prayer of the Mass . . . and the priest has forbidden such practice . . . then to follow your informed conscience for your personal walk in the holy pathways of our Wonderful God . . . it would be better to . . . resign from the choir . . . and obey the Lord . . . and join the congregation at large . . . your singing there can perhaps be an even greater encouragement to the congregation and blessing to sing and praise :harp: our Wonderful Lord during worship as a congregation than if you were secluded among the choir members . . .

*God bless . . . *

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Sweet Spirit of our Holy God+
. . . thank you Blessed Virgin Mary our Holy Mother+
. . . our guide and our model of holiness+​

 

[TrueLight]

OP, do you think your priest would object to something like this?

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/4464/headband.jpg

 

[silicasandra]

OP, do you think your priest would object to something like this?

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/4464/headband.jpg

OP, this is the kind of thing I was talking about before. Some women that I have seen will fold it so it looks more like a regular headband, and then widen it (as in the picture above) for Mass.

I think the pictures you’ve shown are proper and don’t call undue attention to yourself (would kind of defeat one of the purposes of veiling if they did ). Have you shared them with your priest so he knows what you are talking about? Or (maybe I am forgetting) he has a picture in his mind of what you want to wear and has said “no” based on that? There are some coverings that I think would be inappropriate for a choir member (unless it became the norm again for women to veil in this fashion) but completely appropriate in a pew.

I know some people won’t like this, but there is an element of performance when there is a choir singing at Mass, and performance groups have standards of dress (primarily so choir members look reasonably alike and can be identified as a group - not to the extent that a PP suggested, that all are the same height, weight, race, etc.) If your choice of covering blends in with the rest of your attire and does not, to anyone looking at the choir during Mass, immediately make them go, “Holy smokes! What’s that?” you SHOULD be fine.

If it gets to the point where either you or your priest won’t negotiate over this and a reasonable compromise can’t be reached, then someone is overreacting. So far it seems like you’re being a reasonable person about this. You shouldn’t have to give up sharing your talent with your parish because of a devotion. And your priest should be able to have people focus on the Mass instead of the “woman up there who looks weird.”

 

[Spoken4]

Truelight, I like that “expandable headband”, and as I dress in tailored/classic styles of dresses and blazers or skirt and blouse (knee length or close to it… or longer) that would work in to my overall appearance without being out of character. One CAN veil, even when wearing jeans or casual clothes, and still look stylish. Being veiled or covered doesn’t mean that one has to look “weird”, as we all know! In fact, if we can make it look pretty and not frumpy or odd, perhaps we can encourage other ladies to follow suit-- and follow Scripture! Even a hat serves the purpose.

As for us all “not standing out”, perhaps we should wear robes like we did in the choir I belonged to in the Chicago area. We wore royal blue robes with a white “stole”/collar as that was the school’s colors… we were all adults, though. Gold was for the holidays like Christmas or Easter. Plain black or white robes (not an alb or cassock) would be non-distracting. We aren’t a Gospel choir so no bright colors or contrasting stoles needed… just a plain “graduation gown” style would be fine. But since we don’t wear those and Father doesn’t mention anything about that then I have trouble with his statement about veiling and “standing out”. Sure, certain veils are ‘unusual’ today and actually would be awkward for a choir member to deal with… but a chapel cap? A short veil? A close-fitting band style? Even a snood over a bun? I don’t see the problem. Oh, and we have members of several races and ethnicities-- Asian, African and American people sing and “pray twice” in our small choir!

And I firmly believe that “covering one’s head in modesty” can follow the trends of modern dress (notice I didn’t say “fashion”!). Thus, hats could certainly work. After all, Scripture says that women should cover their heads… it DOESN’T say with what. How many of us have done the Kleenex thing?? I certainly wouldn’t do that in the “choir loft”, though!

~Spoken4

 

[SMHW]

OP, do you think your priest would object to something like this?

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/4464/headband.jpg

I am old enough to remember the days when head-coverings (I hate the term “veiling”; sorry) were still required. Most people I knew wore a head covering similar to this or they wore one of those little round chapel caps (about 8 inches in diameter).

(In any case I very seldom saw women wear something that covered the back of the head.)

Most women wore hats but even if the priest didn’t have a problem with it, wearing a hat in the choir is a bad idea since it would likely block the view of the person behind you.

 

[Marie_Gregg]

I’m not Catholic, but this conversation touched my heart. I think it’s beautiful that your heart is so soft toward the leading of the Spirit. Though I didn’t grow up in an environment that required or even encouraged veiling, of late I have desired to purchase a prayer shawl. I like the idea of a physical reminder of being under the authority of God. Anyway, I hope you are your priest are able to come to a solution!