Question about veiling

[centurionguard]

Not in my neck of the woods. I never saw women wearing mantillas/chapel veils in Northern New Brunswick until well into the 60s. I was in grade 4 or 5 when they made their appearance and as someone has already said, started around the time that Jackie Kennedy was photographed wearing one. You’d be hard pressed to see a picture in the 50s that showed Canadian women wearing ‘veils’. Kerchiefs and hats, sure, but not veils.

From the time of my birth in the later 50’s until 1965 I grew up in Halifax, N.S. until the Novus Ordo changes came fully into effect in late 1965. I moved from Halifax to the province of Quebec in 1971.

But being in the EF Mass until 1965 I always remember seeing women wearing a Chapel Veil or at the very least a hat. Even after 1965 many women carried on the tradition of wearing a Chapel Veil. By 1975 extremely few women were seen wearing a Veil.

This K of C website gives a good history of the Chapel Veil. catholicknight.blogspot.com/2007/12/chapel-veil-veiling-or-head-covering.html

 

[MissRose73]

It would seem this priest is going very strongly against the mind of the church here. As the holy father has said in Summorum Pontificum:

What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful.

This seems to apply very well to this situation…I know people will get mad at me, but this pastor needs to get his wits about him. He simply can’t go around doing things like that.

I like that quote from the Holy Father there. I think its a great reminder why we need to keep things around like the EF Mass (for those who wish to attend it), return to modesty in clothing for Mass, etc.

 

[Phemie]

From the time of my birth in the later 50’s until 1965 I grew up in Halifax, N.S. until the Novus Ordo changes came fully into effect in late 1965. I moved from Halifax to the province of Quebec in 1971.

But being in the EF Mass until 1965 I always remember seeing women wearing a Chapel Veil or at the very least a hat. Even after 1965 many women carried on the tradition of wearing a Chapel Veil. By 1975 extremely few women were seen wearing a Veil.

This K of C website gives a good history of the Chapel Veil. catholicknight.blogspot.com/2007/12/chapel-veil-veiling-or-head-covering.html

I’ve read it. It keeps using the word ‘veil’, a word I never even heard in relation to covering your head in church until I came to this board.

I’m convinced that if you talked to women of my generation and older (I’m 58) about veiling they’d think you’re talking about Muslim women and the niquab, like the poster who precipitated this conversation. In fact, the only woman I know who refers to a chapel veil is a Portugese woman of about 70 who wears one when she attends an EF Mass whenever she goes to Toronto & Ottawa but who doesn’t wear a head covering here.

 

[TheMc]

And the best part of this quote is that it’s in an official church document (SP). The holy father has some amazing quotes pertaining to the liturgy, but they hold no weight with some people, because they are in his books.

 

[promethius]

I see this popping up again and I believe that the word you want is “prescription”. A prescription is a positive request, and a proscription is a prohibition.

Ah, yes, thank you. I always get the two confused…

 

[promethius]

There has never been a rule that women cover their head with a veil, there was a rule that women cover their heads and anything that covered her head qualified: a bonnet, a hat, a scarf, a ball cap, a glove or a kleenex if nothing else was available. In North America, veils/mantillas didn’t make their appearance until the mid 60s.

Once again, and I’m going to put this in big, bold lettering since apparently no one is reading it.

I am not talking about rules or rubrics of the church in ANY of my posts so far.

I answered this post ONLY to discuss the social norms of western society which are the basis for the KoC practice of wearing hats while carrying arms.

If you have any questions regarding the distinction between rubrics of the mass and customs and courtesies of Western Society, please feel free to send me a private message, but I am done making this silly clarification over and over again in this thread…

 

[centurionguard]

I’ve read it. It keeps using the word ‘veil’, a word I never even heard in relation to covering your head in church until I came to this board.

I’m convinced that if you talked to women of my generation and older (I’m 58) about veiling they’d think you’re talking about Muslim women and the niqab, like the poster who precipitated this conversation. In fact, the only woman I know who refers to a chapel veil is a Portuguese woman of about 70 who wears one when she attends an EF Mass whenever she goes to Toronto & Ottawa but who doesn’t wear a head covering here.

Interesting; if you Google images of Catholic women wearing Chapel Veils you’ll see Muslim women wearing the niqab. No doubt you’ll find some in the Church who will say something diminutive and dismissive about Chapel Veils. I see it in my own Parish with a group of five women who come to Mass every Sunday wearing Chapel Veils. If you by chance glance at some other parishioners looking at these women up and down you’ll get the drift of what their thinking.

I suppose many residing in North America get a shock when the visit the Vatican and see the required obligatory Dress Code before being allowed by Swiss Guards inside the walls Saint Peter.

 

[Phemie]

Interesting; if you Google images of Catholic women wearing Chapel Veils you’ll see Muslim women wearing the niqab. No doubt you’ll find some in the Church who will say something diminutive and dismissive about Chapel Veils. I see it in my own Parish with a group of five women who come to Mass every Sunday wearing Chapel Veils. If you by chance glace at some other parishioners looking at these women up and down you get the drift of what their thinking.

I suppose many residing in North America get a shock when the visit the Vatican and see the required obligatory Dress Code before being allowed by Swiss Guards inside the walls Saint Peter.

I’m in no way disparaging the women who ‘veil’, I’m just saying that ‘veiling’ was not a concept we knew – we simply ‘wore hats’ or ‘covered our heads’. Veils had a specific meaning and it usually referred to nuns/sisters, brides, first communicants and confirmands. That’s why it’s confusing to many to hear this word used in reference to simply covering our heads when we enter a church. Even when the black & the white lace ‘veils’ came into fashion in the 60s, it was never referred to as a ‘veil’, it was ‘a lace kerchief’.

It’s true that if I wear a hat or beret to Mass nobody will give me a glance but should I opt to wear a mantilla I will be seen to be making a political statement. So, is it necessary to make a political statement or is it enough to cover my head?

By the way, do you have to specifically ‘veil’ to enter St. Peter’s Basilica or is it enough for your head to be covered? I doubt that we have to exchange a Tilley hat for a veil to be granted admission.

 

[zab]

I’m in no way disparaging the women who ‘veil’, I’m just saying that ‘veiling’ was not a concept we knew – we simply ‘wore hats’ or ‘covered our heads’. Veils had a specific meaning and it usually referred to nuns/sisters, brides, first communicants and confirmands. That’s why it’s confusing to many to hear this word used in reference to simply covering our heads when we enter a church. Even when the black & the white lace ‘veils’ came into fashion in the 60s, it was never referred to as a ‘veil’, it was ‘a lace kerchief’.

It’s true that if I wear a hat or beret to Mass nobody will give me a glance but should I opt to wear a mantilla I will be seen to be making a political statement. So, is it necessary to make a political statement or is it enough to cover my head?

By the way, do you have to specifically ‘veil’ to enter St. Peter’s Basilica or is it enough for your head to be covered? I doubt that we have to exchange a Tilley hat for a veil to be granted admission.

I just watched a video of people receiving Communion from Pope Benedict XVI and some women were veiled and some had no head covering at all.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

aaa

 

[centurionguard]

I’m in no way disparaging the women who ‘veil’, I’m just saying that ‘veiling’ was not a concept we knew – we simply ‘wore hats’ or ‘covered our heads’. Veils had a specific meaning and it usually referred to nuns/sisters, brides, first communicants and confirmands. That’s why it’s confusing to many to hear this word used in reference to simply covering our heads when we enter a church. Even when the black & the white lace ‘veils’ came into fashion in the 60s, it was never referred to as a ‘veil’, it was ‘a lace kerchief’.

It’s true that if I wear a hat or beret to Mass nobody will give me a glance but should I opt to wear a mantilla I will be seen to be making a political statement. So, is it necessary to make a political statement or is it enough to cover my head?

By the way, do you have to specifically ‘veil’ to enter St. Peter’s Basilica or is it enough for your head to be covered? I doubt that we have to exchange a Tilley hat for a veil to be granted admission.

I wasn’t suggesting in any way that you were being disparaging. Respectfully though; and I’m not suggesting out of any immediate necessity, but I can’t see how any woman wearing a mantilla going to Mass is making a political statement. It symbolizes nothing of the sort. Its more a personal thing on the religious tone as in looking at the humility of the Virgin Mary and as an act of humility between God and herself. Its nobody else business really anymore than a faithful Catholic choosing to carry a rosary or display a crucifix around their neck. I can only say I have a lot of respect for any woman who wear a veil at Mass. Too bad men don’t have something to symbolize their humility before God.

 

[MissRose73]

I know I am making no statement beyond the fact I am showing respect for God’s House when I enter it with a head covering and modest clothing. I also do so out of personal choice.

 

[TheMc]

Too bad men don’t have something to symbolize their humility before God.

How about removing their hats (that they should be wearing )?

 

[EasterJoy]

How about removing their hats (that they should be wearing )?

When they used to wear hats, they used to do that, but were men required to wear hats in public by anything but the dictates of fashion and the assualts of weather? I don’t think so.

 

[EasterJoy]

I see it in my own Parish with a group of five women who come to Mass every Sunday wearing Chapel Veils. If you by chance glance at some other parishioners looking at these women up and down you’ll get the drift of what their thinking.

Yes, well, maybe, unless you’re a mind-reader. Even if you’re right, liberal busybodies deserve about as much notice as conservative ones or busybodies of any other stripe who want to read a message where no message was intended.

If they’re at least good enough to keep their mouths shut, that’s a step in the right direction!! That makes it easier to put charitable interpretations on their unfortunate choice to stare.

 

[LightBound]

I’m in no way disparaging the women who ‘veil’, I’m just saying that ‘veiling’ was not a concept we knew – we simply ‘wore hats’ or ‘covered our heads’. Veils had a specific meaning and it usually referred to nuns/sisters, brides, first communicants and confirmands. That’s why it’s confusing to many to hear this word used in reference to simply covering our heads when we enter a church. Even when the black & the white lace ‘veils’ came into fashion in the 60s, it was never referred to as a ‘veil’, it was ‘a lace kerchief’.

It’s true that if I wear a hat or beret to Mass nobody will give me a glance but should I opt to wear a mantilla I will be seen to be making a political statement. So, is it necessary to make a political statement or is it enough to cover my head?

By the way, do you have to specifically ‘veil’ to enter St. Peter’s Basilica or is it enough for your head to be covered? I doubt that we have to exchange a Tilley hat for a veil to be granted admission.

Neither. You do need to follow this pretty simple rule though: saintpetersbasilica.org/Pics/SQR/DressCode-JG.jpg

It is your choice if you choose to cover your head with some kind of covering outside of your own hair.

 

[TrueLight]

I wasn’t suggesting in any way that you were being disparaging. Respectfully though; and I’m not suggesting out of any immediate necessity, but I can’t see how any woman wearing a mantilla going to Mass is making a political statement…

Agreed. It is not a political statement.

However, there is nothing wrong with wearing a hat either. I don’t care too much for the lace mantillas, but I wear a different type of mantilla at times and at other times, a hat.

 

[Marie5890]

In North America, veils/mantillas didn’t make their appearance until the mid 60s.

Particularly here in the USA, the fashion of where a veil became fashionable due to Jackie Kennedy Onasis’s fashion influence. Which was HUGE, since JFK was the first Catholic president.

 

[Marie5890]

By the way, do you have to specifically ‘veil’ to enter St. Peter’s Basilica or is it enough for your head to be covered? I doubt that we have to exchange a Tilley hat for a veil to be granted admission.

You may be thinking of having to wear a veil ( or maybe just a head covering? not sure) when having a personal audience with the Pope. That is protocol.

And it can’t be white. There are only a few heads of states that can wear white veil/head covering. Other women have to wear black

 

[AnneTeresa]

I must be missing something here. When I was growing up in the 1960s we HAD to cover our heads in church. We had little doily things (I forget the name). It was REQUIRED. In fact, on vacation when we sometimes forgot to pack them, my mom had to RIP APART A KLEENEX (don’t know why we had such a shortage of kleenex ) and split it between her, my sister and myself to bobby pin on our heads for mass. Unless maybe the discussion here is regarding an actual VEIL not those little doily things.

So maybe this will provide insight for some younger people into why some of us think it’s actually an improvement today to not have to do this anymore.