Question about what a Protestant Pastor said to me today

[Joey1976]

I am not sure if this is the right forum but at the gym today this pastor said to me that we believers in Christ can be perfect and not sin if we try. He said he has not sinned in a long time. He said he has tried to be perfect for a day and has succeeded and he said if i can do it for a day than i can do it all the time. I said we should strive for perfection but we will only be perfect in heaven. And he said no, and he gets mad when people think that we are all sinners. He says with Christ we can be perfect on this earth. He said Jesus came to wipe away all our sins and with Christ we can be sinless. He used the Bible verses about walking in God’s image and how we are called to be like Christ. I said that only Christ is divine and he responded by saying we are brothers and sisters of Christ so we are like him. It sounds kind of like he was getting at that we can all be God or something like a new age belief. I think he is getting confused with the word “like” meaning “similiar” and he thinks it means “same as” We are to be like Christ and he thinks it means we are to be the same as Christ. I am not sure. But does anyone have verses that would dispute that we can be sinless and perfect on Earth and only perfect in Heaven. Thanks

 

[LilyM]

Oh but we can be sinless and perfect - in fact Jesus commands us to be so - ‘be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect’.

How perfect can a human be? Sinless - look to Our Lady, human and sinless, by God’s grace, and so can we all be. Consider also the fact that we don’t believe everyone who dies has to go to Purgatory prior to heaven. Meaning some, while on earth and very much human, yet attain to perfection and sinlessness and are fit immediately for heaven!

True we are all born with original sin (which Our Lady didn’t have) and concupiscence (which is a tendency or attraction for sin but different from actual sin). These, however, are precisely what baptism and the other sacraments of the Church are there to help us overcome.

But it doesn’t happen without a lot of His grace and the help of the sacraments - and prayer, prayer, prayer!

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I am not sure if this is the right forum but at the gym today this pastor said to me that we believers in Christ can be perfect and not sin if we try. He said he has not sinned in a long time. He said he has tried to be perfect for a day and has succeeded and he said if i can do it for a day than i can do it all the time. I said we should strive for perfection but we will only be perfect in heaven. And he said no, and he gets mad when people think that we are all sinners. He says with Christ we can be perfect on this earth. He said Jesus came to wipe away all our sins and with Christ we can be sinless. He used the Bible verses about walking in God’s image and how we are called to be like Christ. I said that only Christ is divine and he responded by saying we are brothers and sisters of Christ so we are like him. It sounds kind of like he was getting at that we can all be God or something like a new age belief. I think he is getting confused with the word “like” meaning “similiar” and he thinks it means “same as” We are to be like Christ and he thinks it means we are to be the same as Christ. I am not sure. But does anyone have verses that would dispute that we can be sinless and perfect on Earth and only perfect in Heaven. Thanks

While we are not literally perfect we can through God’s grace eliminate sin in our lives to a great degree. Many Saints did this. That being said it is not easy, and even the Perfect Prayer, the Lord’s Prayer (Mat ch 6) makes us say “Forgive us our trespasses”.

That pastor is correct in one sense, but not correct if he implies he will for sure never sin again.

 

[LilyM]

While we are not literally perfect we can through God’s grace eliminate sin in our lives to a great degree. Many Saints did this. That being said it is not easy, and even the Perfect Prayer, the Lord’s Prayer (Mat ch 6) makes us say “Forgive us our trespasses”.

That pastor is correct in one sense, but not correct if he implies he will for sure never sin again.

With respect I disagree. Nothing which enters heaven is imperfect - yet some Saints enter heaven immediately upon death without Purgatory, ergo they are perfect.

 

[kentuckyliz]

Wow, sounds Pelagian to me. This guy is headed for a big fall.

 

[foundthelight]

Wow, sounds Pelagian to me. This guy is headed for a big fall.

You beat me to it.

I once heard a pastor on the radio (FBN) say that if you are truly saved you will never want another cigarette, of swear, or drink again. And that if you do, then you were never saved in the first place. What a bunch of hooey!

Is he expressing pride when he speaks of his sinless days? If so, then he sinned.

Pride is my personal greatest stumbling block.

 

[deb1]

You beat me to it.

I once heard a pastor on the radio (FBN) say that if you are truly saved you will never want another cigarette, of swear, or drink again. And that if you do, then you were never saved in the first place. What a bunch of hooey!

Is he expressing pride when he speaks of his sinless days? If so, then he sinned.

Pride is my personal greatest stumbling block.

I live in the south and I come across this thinking occasionally. I never know how to respond to it.

 

[deb1]

I am not sure if this is the right forum but at the gym today this pastor said to me that we believers in Christ can be perfect and not sin if we try. He said he has not sinned in a long time. He said he has tried to be perfect for a day and has succeeded and he said if i can do it for a day than i can do it all the time. I said we should strive for perfection but we will only be perfect in heaven. And he said no, and he gets mad when people think that we are all sinners. He says with Christ we can be perfect on this earth. He said Jesus came to wipe away all our sins and with Christ we can be sinless. He used the Bible verses about walking in God’s image and how we are called to be like Christ. I said that only Christ is divine and he responded by saying we are brothers and sisters of Christ so we are like him. It sounds kind of like he was getting at that we can all be God or something like a new age belief. I think he is getting confused with the word “like” meaning “similiar” and he thinks it means “same as” We are to be like Christ and he thinks it means we are to be the same as Christ. I am not sure. But does anyone have verses that would dispute that we can be sinless and perfect on Earth and only perfect in Heaven. Thanks

It sounds as if this pastor was bragging and that is a sin.

 

[kentuckyliz]

The Bible says that even the righteous man sins seven times a day, and that if you say you have no sin, you are a liar.

So I’ll believe the Bible before someone else’s fallen perception of their own sinlessness.

 

[cascherman]

“all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.” Romans

 

[Catholic_Dude]

With respect I disagree. Nothing which enters heaven is imperfect - yet some Saints enter heaven immediately upon death without Purgatory, ergo they are perfect.

I dont follow. I know all saints (little s) who enter Heaven are perfected/glorified. What I meant were the famous Saints (Francis, Teresa, etc) who had greatly reduced even venial sin in their lives.

I think we might be talking past each other.

 

[foundthelight]

I live in the south and I come across this thinking occasionally. I never know how to respond to it.

Ask him if Paul was saved and then hit him with this:

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.
Rom 7:16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good.
Rom 7:17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
Rom 7:19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Rom 7:21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,
Rom 7:23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

 

[Publisher]

Sounds like he was a member of the Church of the Nazarene, Free Methodist or a Wesleyan Church. “Christian Perfection” is a doctrine of some Wesleyan churches that believe in a second work of grace subsequent to regeneration…it’s called “entire sanctification”.

John Wesley wrote quite a bit concerning “entire sanctification” of the believer.

 

[Joey1976]

It sounds as if this pastor was bragging and that is a sin.

That is exactly what he does! He always brags to me. He tells me every time i see him how he has almost the whole Bible memorized and how he studies scripture 8-10 hours a day. He also tells me how he was a karate champion and how is some young guys messes with him he would be in big trouble cause he is so good in karate even though he is 60 something, he could take on young guys. He also brags about how he has the gift of tongues, healing, and prophecy. And he is just not telling me it sounds like he is bragging as he says every time i pray for someone they are healed. Another strange thing he said is that he doesn’t pray for non- Christians. Except that they will turn to God. So i think he meant he would never pray for them to be healed or anything. He also always makes comments to me like, we have it good that we are in Christ almost like bragging that we are better than everyone else.

But getting back to my original question, Some posters agree with him that we can be without sin and be perfect. I thought that we should always strive for it but we would only be perfect in heaven. Like i heard the quote before, " A saint is not a person without sin, but a person who falls nine times but gets up 10." I thought Jesus was the only perfect person to walk the Earth and only Jesus and Mary were the only sinless persons to ever walk the earth.

 

[Publisher]

That is exactly what he does! He always brags to me. He tells me every time i see him how he has almost the whole Bible memorized and how he studies scripture 8-10 hours a day. He also tells me how he was a karate champion and how is some young guys messes with him he would be in big trouble cause he is so good in karate even though he is 60 something, he could take on young guys. He also brags about how he has the gift of tongues, healing, and prophecy. And he is just not telling me it sounds like he is bragging as he says every time i pray for someone they are healed. Another strange thing he said is that he doesn’t pray for non- Christians. Except that they will turn to God. So i think he meant he would never pray for them to be healed or anything. He also always makes comments to me like, we have it good that we are in Christ almost like bragging that we are better than everyone else.

But getting back to my original question, Some posters agree with him that we can be without sin and be perfect. I thought that we should always strive for it but we would only be perfect in heaven. Like i heard the quote before, " A saint is not a person without sin, but a person who sins nine times but gets up 10." I thought Jesus was the only perfect person to walk the Earth and only Jesus and Mary were the only sinless persons to ever walk the earth.

Well, he’s not Wesleyan…must be part of a Wesleyan influenced Pentacostal group.

 

[LilyM]

I dont follow. I know all saints (little s) who enter Heaven are perfected/glorified. What I meant were the famous Saints (Francis, Teresa, etc) who had greatly reduced even venial sin in their lives.

I think we might be talking past each other.

You said ‘we are not literally perfect’. That is where I disagree. Some people - those who are fit to enter heaven without passing through Purgatory - clearly ARE literally perfect, for however brief a period, with NO venial sin on their soul, not just a ‘greatly reduced’ amount.

And furthermore, they just as clearly achieve that state of perfection whilst on earth, otherwise they could not go straight to heaven, no?

As a logical progression of this, if one can be free of all sin for a brief period of time, then it is also possible, albeit only with God’s grace, to be free of sin for a long time, or even for one’s entire post-baptismal life.

After all, Our Lady was graced to be perfect from the moment of her conception to her death.

Again, Jesus commands us to be perfect. He doesn’t command the impossible, just the difficult So it is possible for us to be perfect.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

You said ‘we are not literally perfect’. That is where I disagree. Some people - those who are fit to enter heaven without passing through Purgatory - clearly ARE literally perfect, for however brief a period, with NO venial sin on their soul, not just a ‘greatly reduced’ amount.

And furthermore, they just as clearly achieve that state of perfection whilst on earth, otherwise they could not go straight to heaven, no?

As a logical progression of this, if one can be free of all sin for a brief period of time, then it is also possible, albeit only with God’s grace, to be free of sin for a long time, or even for one’s entire post-baptismal life.

After all, Our Lady was graced to be perfect from the moment of her conception to her death.

Again, Jesus commands us to be perfect. He doesn’t command the impossible, just the difficult So it is possible for us to be perfect.

I agree with this. I pointed out it is wrong for someone to say they are perfect cannot mean they are unable to sin in the future.

You are right, I was overlooking the fact purgatory is not always necessary, and that is clear proof of a perfected life. Even infants upon Baptism are this way.

 

[Joey1976]

He is definitely not Pelagian cause he did talk about grace is the reason we can become perfect and without sin. I think the Pelagians believed that God’s grace is not needed.

 

[grandfather]

Jesus commands us:
“Be perfect, even as your heavenely father is perfect”.
In another translation that means the same thing:
“Be ye holy, even as your heavenly father is holy”.

Jesue is saying to you to be as holy as God is holy, perfect, pure, without fault.

If Jesus commanded this of us and it is impossible He would be unjust. He is perfectly just. It is impossible for us to do this on our own. If we thought so we would be Pelagian. If God helps us with grace anything is possible. The pastor sounds a bit nutty, but that has nothing to do with the issue. We are called to holiness, perfection. We need to repsond to grace to answer that call. If we fall we have forgivness, but we do not have to fall. God protect us by your grace and love for us.

 

[quiet52]

Well, I’m never perfect, because I’m overweight and have zits, among other more major imperfections. But as to being perfectly sinless, yes, sometimes I think I am – maybe for a few minutes – sometimes an entire night, while I’m sleeping. When I fail to give a kind word to someone when I have the opportunity to, when I’m choosing to watch TV instead of phoning my family to see how they are, when I overeat, when I cave in to apathy when someone else has a need, when I choose to be impersonal in my work, when I pay my bills late, when I don’t invite others to share a meal because I haven’t done my housekeeping, when I let my mind drift during mass, then I am not being perfectly sinless. These may not be major sins (and thus are not choices to separate myself from God), but they are wounds in my relationship to God and others. I must not only continue to strive to be more perfect, but must seek our Lord’s merciful forgiveness for these sins and act on the graces He gives me to improve.