Question about what a Protestant Pastor said to me today

[Steve40]

May be he is on the road to believing in the Communion of Saints. Many of them were perfect on earth and by the Grace of God achieved not sinning. Of course him being outside the Catholic Church is a sin, but you can tell him that tomarrow and let him enjoy today.

 

[grandfather]

Well, I’m never perfect, … I must not only continue to strive to be more perfect, but must seek our Lord’s merciful forgiveness for these sins and act on the graces He gives me to improve.

Right!

 

[deb1]

Would a perfected person know that they were perfected already or would they still be constantly striving? How does the pastor know that he won’t sin in the future?

 

[jcrichton]

this pastor said to me that we believers in Christ can be perfect and not sin if we try…

He said Jesus came to wipe away all our sins and with Christ we can be sinless…

We are to be like Christ and he thinks it means we are to be the same as Christ. I am not sure. But does anyone have verses that would dispute that we can be sinless and perfect on Earth and only perfect in Heaven. Thanks

***Hi, Joey!

Much of it has to do with interpretation of the Holy Scriptures… too often (no not of-ten… more like ophen) people employ way too much latitude in their interpretations so confusion tends to surface and engolf the world…

Though it is true that we are called to be perfect only God is perfect… this of course does not mean that we cannot achieve perfection–but this only according to Jesus’ Word (St. John 15:1-17). So this perfection is not of our own but of abiding in God.

Remember Peter’s walk on the water… he emulated Jesus’ actions but he was not Jesus and the second he stopped relying on Jesus’ Power he began to sink!

So we can defeat sin by living every second of our lives in God–the second we stray from Yahweh…that’s the second we fail and sin enters our lives again.

If all that it would take to stop sinning would be to claim that we are Christ’s disciples then there’s much that is superfluous in Scripture… and even Jesus’ own Teachings would be wrong, at times… remember what He told Peter when he asked Him how many times must we forgive our brethren… Peter asked, seven times? Jesus said seveny times seven (of course this was a general number indicating a large enough amount that a reasonable person would have stopped keeping count of the other’s transgressions). If we could just simply will ourselves (without God’s assistance) not to sin, then Jesus could have just told Peter “…don’t worry, he will soon stop sinning.”

Not sinning is not an act of human will, but a conscious willingness to surrender our wills to God’s and humbly obey His commands.

I love the first epistle of John (especially 1:5 through 2:6) because it deals in this very subject… if we say we have no sin we lie and we call God a liar because it is He who tells us that we are sinners; but the best part of this passage is that if we confess our sins Christ mediates in our defense to grant us forgiveness… notice though that we must confess that we have committed sin before Christ’s mediation can cleanse us! (1:9)

Christ is the one that makes saints of us all. It is His willingness to forgive us when we come to Him in a state of rempentence and as for His forgiveness–we do not ask a Priest for this absolution, we ask Christ who, through the Priest, grants us the ability to come into God’s intimacy (perfection)!

God Bless!

Angel

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[bpbasilphx]

He said he has not sinned in a long time.

If your friend says he has no sin, he deceives himself, and the truth (Jesus) is not in him.

1 John 1:8

 

[CindiA]

These may not be major sins (and thus are not choices to separate myself from God), but they are wounds in my relationship to God and others. I must not only continue to strive to be more perfect, but must seek our Lord’s merciful forgiveness for these sins and act on the graces He gives me to improve.

It seems to me that it is almost totally impossible to be “perfect”. So far, everyone has mentioned the things we do, but I have yet to hear anyone say something about those things that we do not do – in other words, sins of omission. How do we even know the many times every day (week, month, year…) those things that we could have, should have done and we did not? Paul mentions this in his letter where he says that the things he should not do he does and that the things he shoud do, he does not. I’m convinced that God opens doors of opportunity for us all the time and we choose not to walk thru them. Sometimes we are too busy, too unconcerned, too out of touch with Him to even see the opportunites, etc. How can we ever say that we are sinless? How do we know when we’ve missed opportunities and therefore have sinned? Afterall, isn’t the literal meaning of sin: “to miss the mark”?

 

[Joey1976]

***Hi, Joey!

Much of it has to do with interpretation of the Holy Scriptures… too often (no not of-ten… more like ophen) people employ way too much latitude in their interpretations so confusion tends to surface and engolf the world…

Though it is true that we are called to be perfect only God is perfect… this of course does not mean that we cannot achieve perfection–but this only according to Jesus’ Word (St. John 15:1-17). So this perfection is not of our own but of abiding in God.

Remember Peter’s walk on the water… he emulated Jesus’ actions but he was not Jesus and the second he stopped relying on Jesus’ Power he began to sink! ***

That is the scripture he used actually to me was the walking on water passage. So, i guess this Pastor was right in what he was saying. Because he did say it is very hard thing to do and only abiding in God can we achieve this. The thing that i felt weird about when i was talking with him is that he seems to brag about it.

 

[grandfather]

Would a perfected person know that they were perfected already or would they still be constantly striving? How does the pastor know that he won’t sin in the future?

The first gift is faith. Faith leads to hope. Charity is the crowning virtue. It is infused in the soul by God. Our consciences tell us when we are in sin. We know where we are although sometimes we practice denial. Think of a thermometer with above and below zero. When we are in habitual sin we are operating below the mark. The reason is because of what we do and we know whether or not we are participating in evil or not if we are honest with ourselves. When we stop sin we are at zero or neutral. When we are filled with divine love we are above neutral and living as we are made to live and we do know it. Then we love everyone. We pray for enemies and forgive trespassers automatically, desire their salvation, hope for their good, not because we are told to, but because we truly love our enemies. It is all due to grace. The holier people become the greater their faults seem to them. Little faults seem enormous and they hate them. We know when we are right with God, but some people think they are and are mistaken. So the minister who brags about his accomplishments or physical condition is fooling himself. He is not humble. Holy people hide their holiness. They do not want to be on stage or have any attention. A saint would never publicly state he has overcome sin. He may have, but the struggle to remain holy remains, and the possibility of a fall is always present.

 

[grandfather]

That is the scripture he used actually to me was the walking on water passage. So, i guess this Pastor was right in what he was saying. Because he did say it is very hard thing to do and only abiding in God can we achieve this. The thing that i felt weird about when i was talking with him is that he seems to brag about it.

It is 100% impossible to attain perfection without the means of grace, the sacraments.

 

[jcrichton]

. Because he did say it is very hard thing to do and only abiding in God can we achieve this. The thing that i felt weird about when i was talking with him is that he seems to brag about it.

***Hi, Joey!

Citing a passage and using it to ilustrate a point is good… living the passage in our actual life is not so easy…

I once got involved in the numbers game in a Bible study group… thought I worked hard on providing Scriptures and assisting others in understanding or providing additional Biblical material… I was doing a fantastic job (even got some good responses from non-Christians) but I caught myself pushing those numbers… replying as quickly as possible, responding to the questions which were less deep or less complicated or that were in similar veins as the ones previously answerd… then I stopped myself… I took something good and perverted it for my own personal gratification… Bible study should never be a competition… the sin of pride crept in…

Many of us forget those sins… the ones that sneak in… I’ve known some “Christians” that think that it is OK to use foul language, to get easily angered or offended, to repremand others for their own perceived attacks…

From what you have shared I cannot visualize this “pastor” speaking to you in a humble manner as if departing wisdom, hope, and Christian love…

…as I was typing this occurred to me:

There’s also the fact that what is understood as sin may differ from one Christian to another… what one might consider life as usual (suicide for example) I might (and I do) consider it sin!

The best way to continue your relationship with this pastor is to remember that you are Catholic and must abide by the Church that teaches us that all are sinners (Scriptural fact) and thus all must rely on Jesus to be cleansed and Saved!

God Bless!

Angel

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[jcrichton]

Well, I’m never perfect, because … more major imperfections.

***Hi, Quiet!

…remember Christ’s words… it is not what enters the stomach which harms/contaminates but what comes out of a man’s mouth (thoughts, words, idealogies) which harms a man.

God is not a respecter of man. He looks into our deepest being not our exterior–hollo wood keeps preaching superficial beauty and wealth as the key to perfection… God sees far into our innermost thought and being to determine perfection!

Perfection starts with obedience and ends with humble obedience to God… so do not fret, you can be perfect as your Father wants you to be!

God Bless!

Angel***

 

[jcrichton]

Would a perfected person know that they were perfected already or would they still be constantly striving? How does the pastor know that he won’t sin in the future?

***Hi, Deb!

It is my experience that those truly seeking perfection are living in a deep state of humility… they hardly think themselves to merit God’s Grace and Mercy… to them perfection is a life’s goal not a step to be achieved (…keys of the kingdom, path to wealth, etc.).

I’ve never read a single book where any of the Saints have claimed to have gone x amount of hours without sinning… rather, as Job, they are always looking for reasons to ask God’s forgiveness, they even ask for forgiveness for others!

…I think that that pastor is taking liberties which he can’t afford! …as Christ said, we will never know when it will be… for it will come as a thief in the night!

As the Saints, we must pray also for those who are sure of their salvation and their sinnlessness (is that a word?)… they are so closed to missing the boat as they begin to usurp God’s realm by claiming to own the future!

God Bless!

Angel***

 

[anthony022071]

Quote these passages to the pastor.

First Letter of John 1,chapter 1

8 If we say, “We are without sin,” we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

10 If we say, “We have not sinned,” we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[Joey1976]

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The best way to continue your relationship with this pastor is to remember that you are Catholic and must abide by the Church that teaches us that all are sinners (Scriptural fact) and thus all must rely on Jesus to be cleansed and Saved!

God Bless!

Angel

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Oh, trust me i always remember that i am Catholic and my faith in the Church is not going to be shaken. I do think this Pastor is going to ask me to his Bible study one day and I do not and will not go. But how would i respond to the Pastor kindly that I do not want ot attend without being mean or sounding like i am scared or not open to Bible studies. Also, i do not even know if he is even a “Pastor” of a Church. I think he just has a Bible study that he runs and so that is why he considers himself a Pastor. He actually is a Bails Bondsman as his profession and just leads a Bible study.

 

[quasimodo]

That is exactly what he does! He always brags to me. He tells me every time i see him how he has almost the whole Bible memorized and how he studies scripture 8-10 hours a day. He also tells me how he was a karate champion and how is some young guys messes with him he would be in big trouble cause he is so good in karate even though he is 60 something, he could take on young guys. He also brags about how he has the gift of tongues, healing, and prophecy. And he is just not telling me it sounds like he is bragging as he says every time i pray for someone they are healed. Another strange thing he said is that he doesn’t pray for non- Christians. Except that they will turn to God. So i think he meant he would never pray for them to be healed or anything. He also always makes comments to me like, we have it good that we are in Christ almost like bragging that we are better than everyone else.

But getting back to my original question, Some posters agree with him that we can be without sin and be perfect. I thought that we should always strive for it but we would only be perfect in heaven. Like i heard the quote before, " A saint is not a person without sin, but a person who falls nine times but gets up 10." I thought Jesus was the only perfect person to walk the Earth and only Jesus and Mary were the only sinless persons to ever walk the earth.

Sinful pride perhaps?

 

[Joey1976]

Another thing that he said to me that seemed weird to me is that he said every time he prays for someone they are healed. Now, i do believe in miracles and God heals people but his statement kinda sounds like the health and wealth gospel where they believe everyone that has faith will be healed. But he also told me he has a lung disease that he has and he got when he was in Vietnam and he has to do these breathing exercises because of the disease. So i wanted to ask him why isn’t he healed of it. He said everyone he prays for is healed, well then why isn’t he healed of his disease then?

 

[jcrichton]

Joey1976;3023184]Oh, trust me i always remember that i am Catholic and my faith in the Church is not going to be shaken.

***Hi, Joey!
I am so glad to hear that… too many times Catholics shy away from non-Catholics and accept whatever is told to them without even seeking other Catholics to help them examine the issues.

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I do think this Pastor is going to ask me to his Bible study one day and I do not and will not go. But how would i respond to the Pastor kindly that I do not want ot attend without being mean or sounding like i am scared or not open to Bible studies.

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Sooner or later we are asked to join one group or another… for some reason non-Catholics have a very low opinion of Catholics as Bible reading and believing Christians… my personal approach is straight-forward: I let the person/s know that I am Catholic, that I do not mind maintaining a dialogue with them in reference to the Word; but I warn them that I am not seeking conversion from the Church… I always keep my tone friendly and low keyed (specially if they begin to assault the Church or reject Jesus or present their denominational interpretation of Scriptures). Think of the other person as your long lost body, a person that may need your ear and your acceptance… with kindness in your heart and voice you can say “no” as many times as need be–while simultaneously assuring him that you enjoy sharing God’s Word with him.

Always keep mental notes and check any reference at home and/or with someone you trust and respect.

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Also, i do not even know if he is even a “Pastor” of a Church. I think he just has a Bible study that he runs and so that is why he considers himself a Pastor. He actually is a Bails Bondsman as his profession and just leads a Bible study.

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Yeah, sometimes that happens… people get accustomed to a nickname and they become it… though, in this case, wanting to be someone that works for Christ is not a bad aspiration!

Maran atha!

Angel***

 

[jcrichton]

Another thing that he said to me that seemed weird to me is that he said every time he prays for someone they are healed. Now, i do believe in miracles and God heals people but his statement kinda sounds like the health and wealth gospel where they believe everyone that has faith will be healed. But he also told me he has a lung disease that he has and he got when he was in Vietnam and he has to do these breathing exercises because of the disease. So i wanted to ask him why isn’t he healed of it. He said everyone he prays for is healed, well then why isn’t he healed of his disease then?

***Hi, Joey!

I think that, for many, when they read the New Testament they equate the narration of the early Church’s history as testimonials and they beging to offer their life’s experiences as such… they do not think that they are bragging when they recount the story of their conversion or when they talk about their “spiritual gifts” (speaking in tongues, healing, prophesying, imposing of the hands, preaching, teaching, etc.); in their minds, they are actually representing Christ and being the best they can be.

Do Christian have such gifts?.. that is totally Scriptural. But it is also Scriptural that the gifts of the Spirit are imparted to serve the Church not the individuals… and it is the Holy Spirit who determines who receives what and when!

Keep in mind though what Jesus told His disciples upon their return to Him when He sent them out into the nearby towns and cities… “rather be glad that your names are written in Heaven.” (St. Luke 10:20) It is God who determines if anyone has a gift or not–God even uses those who oppose Him to bring about His Plan (St. John 11:47-52)… on the other hand… he could be taking credit for someone else’s work–that is why it is best not to promote ourselves or our abilities.

Maran atha!

Angel***