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PatriceA
Guest
Nope, you’re wrong. My body is my body and my private property no matter where I go. Nobody has a right to violate it, nobody. Doesn’t matter what I wear, what I have ingested or what actions I’ve done or not done.
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Question: are women to blame for being raped if they were wearing revealing clothing according to teaching?
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RaymondJensen
Guest
I don’t think they should be blamed for rape. They could be blamed for being indecent depending on the attire, but no man should commit adultry just because the woman looked hot. also when i say blame for being indecent i’m not saying there should be a punishment along with it. Since this was before speedos I think it can apply to men as well.
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DLT
Guest
Christians should not be dirty dancing. Period! Unless it is in front of one’s husband while alone together.Then the “wages” of dirty dancing is gang rape?
Every time I look back at this thread I’m amazed.
J
JHow
Guest
This just in from the Transportation Security Agency: Is IS your own fault if you get molested. You could have chosen the full-body scan.
D
DLT
Guest
By the way, I am amazed that you think it is all right to dirty dance in front of a bunch of strangers. As I said before the men were rightfully put in prison for raping her, but to say she had no part in the behavior is just nonsense and political correctness to the extreme.I’m butting in because as a Catholic mom some of the posts in this thread continue to creep me out & are disturbing.
The simple answer to the OP’s question is “NO!” “No” in a modern court of law & “No” in the Catholic Church. And “No Way!” from me personally.
C
centurionguard
Guest
I’m in full agreement with you here Patrice.Nope, you’re wrong. My body is my body and my private property no matter where I go. Nobody has a right to violate it, nobody. Doesn’t matter what I wear, what I have ingested or what actions I’ve done or not done.
Extremely few people in this world could fully embrace and contemplate the physical and psychological life-long aftermath in how rape, incest, and sexual abuse of numerous types comes the bear-down on any victim.
The Psychological Torture Of Rape
In the past and often in the present I have tried to articulate how I have felt since that God-forsaken day I was gang-raped, tortured, beaten, and sodomized at gunpoint by two men and one woman. What is described and written below appropriately articulates the unspeakable psychological stigma of Rape not just for me; but, I think for most Victims of Rape and Incest.
There is one place in which one’s privacy, intimacy, integrity and inviolability are guaranteed – (“one’s body”), a unique temple and a familiar territory of sensa and personal history. The rape torturer invades, defiles and desecrates this shrine. He does so publicly, deliberately, repeatedly and, often, sadistically and sexually, with undisguised pleasure. Hence the all-pervasive, long-lasting, and, frequently, irreversible effects and outcomes of rape torture.
In a way, the tortured rape victim’s own body is rendered his or her worse enemy. It is a corporeal agony that compels the victimized sufferer to mutate, his or her identity to fragment, his or her ideals and principles to crumble. The body becomes an accomplice of the tormentor, an uninteruptible channel of communication, a treasonous, poisoned territory.
Rape torture fosters a humiliating dependency of the abused on the perpetrator. Bodily needs denied – sleep, toilet, food, water – are wrongly perceived by the rape victim as the direct causes of his or her degradation and dehumanization. As he or she sees it, he or she is rendered bestial not by the sadistic bullies around them but by his or her own bodily flesh.
The concept of “body” can easily be extended to “family”, or “home”. Rape torture is often applied to kin and kith, compatriots, or colleagues. This intends to disrupt the continuity of “surroundings, habits, appearance, relations with others”, indeed a sense of cohesive self-identity depends crucially on the familiar and the continuous. By attacking both one’s biological body and one’s “social body”, the victim’s psyche is strained to the point of dissociation.
The following describes this transmogrification thus in “Ethics of the Unspeakable: Torture Survivors in Psychoanalytic Treatment”:
“As the gap between the ‘I’ and the ‘me’ deepens, dissociation and alienation increase. The subject that, under rape torture, was forced into the position of pure object has lost his or her sense of interiority, intimacy, and privacy. Time is experienced now, in the present only, and perspective – that which allows for a sense of relativity – is foreclosed. Thoughts and dreams attack the mind and invade the body as if the protective skin that normally contains our thoughts, gives us space to breathe in between the thought and the thing being thought about, and separates between inside and outside, past and present, me and you, was lost.”
C
centurionguard
Guest
continued
Rape torture robs the victim of the most basic modes of relating to reality and, thus, is the equivalent of cognitive death. Space and time are warped by sleep deprivation. The self (“I”) is shattered. Women and Men tortured by rape have nothing familiar to hold on to: family, home, personal belongings, loved ones, language, name. Gradually, they lose their mental resilience and sense of freedom. They feel alien – unable to communicate, relate, attach, or empathize with others.
Rape torture splinters early childhood grandiose narcissistic fantasies of uniqueness, omnipotence, invulnerability, and impenetrability. But it enhances the fantasy of merger with an idealized and omnipotent (though not benign) other – the inflictor of agony. The twin processes of individuation and separation are reversed.
Rape torture is the ultimate act of perverted intimacy. The savage torturer invades the victim’s body, pervades his or her psyche, and possesses the rape victim’s mind. Deprived of contact with others and starved for human interactions, the rape abuser bonds with the predator. “Traumatic bonding”, akin to the hope and the search for meaning in the brutal and indifferent and nightmarish universe of the torture cell.
The rape abuser becomes the black hole at the center of the victim’s surrealistic galaxy, sucking in the sufferer’s universal need for solace. The rape victim tries to “control” his or her tormentor by becoming one with their aggressor (introjecting him) and by appealing to the monster’s presumably dormant humanity and empathy.
This bonding is especially strong when the savage abuser and the tortured victim form a dyad and “collaborate” in the rituals and acts of torture (for instance, when the rape victim is coerced into selecting the torture implements and the types of torment to be inflicted, or to choose between the lesser of two evils).
"Rape torture is an obscenity in that it joins what is most private with what is most public. Rape torture entails all the isolation and extreme solitude of privacy with none of the usual security embodied therein… Rape torture entails at the same time all the self-exposure of the utterly public with none of its possibilities for camaraderie or shared experience.
(“The presence of an all powerful other with whom to merge, without the security of the other’s benign intentions.”)
A further obscenity of Rape torture is the inversion it makes of intimate human relationships. The interrogation is a form of social encounter in which the normal rules of communicating, of relating, of intimacy are manipulated. Dependency needs are elicited by the interrogator, but not so they may be met as in close relationships, but to weaken and confuse. Independence that is offered in return for ‘betrayal’ is a lie. Silence is intentionally misinterpreted either as confirmation of information or as guilt for ‘complicity’.
Rape torture combines complete humiliating exposure with utter devastating isolation. The final products and outcome of a victimized rape victim are a scarred and often shattered victim and an empty display of the fiction of power."
Obsessed by endless ruminations, demented by pain and a continuum of sleeplessness – the rape victim regresses, shedding all but the most primitive defence mechanisms: splitting, narcissism, dissociation, Projective Identification, introjection, and cognitive dissonance. The victim constructs an alternative world, often suffering from depersonalization and derealisation, hallucinations, ideas of reference, delusions, and psychotic episodes.
Sometimes the rape victim comes to crave pain – very much as self-mutilators do – because it is a proof and a reminder of the rape victims individuated existence otherwise blurred by the incessant torture. Pain shields the rape sufferer from disintegration and capitulation. It preserves the veracity of his or her unthinkable and unspeakable experiences.
This dual process of the rape victim’s alienation and addiction to anguish complements the perpetrator’s view of his quarry as “inhuman”, or “subhuman”. The rape abuser assumes the position of the sole authority, the exclusive fount of meaning and interpretation, the source of both evil and good.
Rape torture robs the victim of the most basic modes of relating to reality and, thus, is the equivalent of cognitive death. Space and time are warped by sleep deprivation. The self (“I”) is shattered. Women and Men tortured by rape have nothing familiar to hold on to: family, home, personal belongings, loved ones, language, name. Gradually, they lose their mental resilience and sense of freedom. They feel alien – unable to communicate, relate, attach, or empathize with others.
Rape torture splinters early childhood grandiose narcissistic fantasies of uniqueness, omnipotence, invulnerability, and impenetrability. But it enhances the fantasy of merger with an idealized and omnipotent (though not benign) other – the inflictor of agony. The twin processes of individuation and separation are reversed.
Rape torture is the ultimate act of perverted intimacy. The savage torturer invades the victim’s body, pervades his or her psyche, and possesses the rape victim’s mind. Deprived of contact with others and starved for human interactions, the rape abuser bonds with the predator. “Traumatic bonding”, akin to the hope and the search for meaning in the brutal and indifferent and nightmarish universe of the torture cell.
The rape abuser becomes the black hole at the center of the victim’s surrealistic galaxy, sucking in the sufferer’s universal need for solace. The rape victim tries to “control” his or her tormentor by becoming one with their aggressor (introjecting him) and by appealing to the monster’s presumably dormant humanity and empathy.
This bonding is especially strong when the savage abuser and the tortured victim form a dyad and “collaborate” in the rituals and acts of torture (for instance, when the rape victim is coerced into selecting the torture implements and the types of torment to be inflicted, or to choose between the lesser of two evils).
"Rape torture is an obscenity in that it joins what is most private with what is most public. Rape torture entails all the isolation and extreme solitude of privacy with none of the usual security embodied therein… Rape torture entails at the same time all the self-exposure of the utterly public with none of its possibilities for camaraderie or shared experience.
(“The presence of an all powerful other with whom to merge, without the security of the other’s benign intentions.”)
A further obscenity of Rape torture is the inversion it makes of intimate human relationships. The interrogation is a form of social encounter in which the normal rules of communicating, of relating, of intimacy are manipulated. Dependency needs are elicited by the interrogator, but not so they may be met as in close relationships, but to weaken and confuse. Independence that is offered in return for ‘betrayal’ is a lie. Silence is intentionally misinterpreted either as confirmation of information or as guilt for ‘complicity’.
Rape torture combines complete humiliating exposure with utter devastating isolation. The final products and outcome of a victimized rape victim are a scarred and often shattered victim and an empty display of the fiction of power."
Obsessed by endless ruminations, demented by pain and a continuum of sleeplessness – the rape victim regresses, shedding all but the most primitive defence mechanisms: splitting, narcissism, dissociation, Projective Identification, introjection, and cognitive dissonance. The victim constructs an alternative world, often suffering from depersonalization and derealisation, hallucinations, ideas of reference, delusions, and psychotic episodes.
Sometimes the rape victim comes to crave pain – very much as self-mutilators do – because it is a proof and a reminder of the rape victims individuated existence otherwise blurred by the incessant torture. Pain shields the rape sufferer from disintegration and capitulation. It preserves the veracity of his or her unthinkable and unspeakable experiences.
This dual process of the rape victim’s alienation and addiction to anguish complements the perpetrator’s view of his quarry as “inhuman”, or “subhuman”. The rape abuser assumes the position of the sole authority, the exclusive fount of meaning and interpretation, the source of both evil and good.
C
centurionguard
Guest
continued
They feel guilty and disgraced because, to restore a semblance of order to their shattered world and a modicum of dominion over their chaotic life, they need to transform themselves into the cause of their own degradation and the accomplices of their tormentors.
“The purpose of all coercive techniques is to induce psychological regression in the subject by bringing a superior outside force to bear on the rape sufferers will to resist. Regression is basically a loss of autonomy, a reversion to an earlier behavioral level. As the subject regresses, his or her learned personality traits fall away in reverse chronological order. Rape victims begin to lose their capacity to carry out the highest creative activities, to deal with complex situations, or to cope with stressful interpersonal relationships or repeated frustrations.”
Inevitably, in the aftermath of torture, the rape victim feel helpless and powerless. This loss of control over one’s life and body is manifested physically in impotence, attention deficits, and insomnia. This is often exacerbated by the disbelief many torture victims encounter, especially if they are unable to produce scars, or other “objective” proof of their ordeal. Language cannot communicate such an intensely private experience as pain.
(“Pain is also unsharable in that it is resistant to language… All our interior states of consciousness: emotional, perceptual, cognitive and somatic can be described as having an object in the external world… This affirms our capacity to move beyond the boundaries of our body into the external, sharable world. This is the space in which we interact and communicate with our environment. But when we explore the interior state of physical pain we find that there is no object ‘out there’ – no external, referential content. Pain is not of, or for, anything. Pain is. And it draws us away from the space of interaction, the sharable world, inwards. It draws us into the boundaries of our body.”)
Bystanders resent those victimized by rape because it makes them feel guilty and ashamed for having done nothing to prevent the atrocity. Rape victims threaten their sense of security and their much-needed belief in predictability, justice, and rule of law. Those victimized by rape, on their part, do not believe that it is possible to effectively communicate to “outsiders” what they have been through.
“It is very tempting to take the side of the perpetrator. All the perpetrator asks is that the bystander do nothing. He appeals to the universal desire to see, hear, and speak no evil. The rape victim, on the contrary, asks the bystander to share the burden of pain. The rape victim demands action, engagement, and remembering.”
But, more often, continued attempts to repress fearful memories result in psychosomatic illnesses (conversion). The rape victim wishes to forget the torture, to avoid re-experiencing the often life threatening abuse and to shield his or her human environment from the horrors. In conjunction with the victim’s pervasive distrust, this is frequently interpreted as hyper vigilance, or even paranoia. It (“seems”) that female and male victims can’t win. For many Victims of Rape, Torture is forever.
They feel guilty and disgraced because, to restore a semblance of order to their shattered world and a modicum of dominion over their chaotic life, they need to transform themselves into the cause of their own degradation and the accomplices of their tormentors.
“The purpose of all coercive techniques is to induce psychological regression in the subject by bringing a superior outside force to bear on the rape sufferers will to resist. Regression is basically a loss of autonomy, a reversion to an earlier behavioral level. As the subject regresses, his or her learned personality traits fall away in reverse chronological order. Rape victims begin to lose their capacity to carry out the highest creative activities, to deal with complex situations, or to cope with stressful interpersonal relationships or repeated frustrations.”
Inevitably, in the aftermath of torture, the rape victim feel helpless and powerless. This loss of control over one’s life and body is manifested physically in impotence, attention deficits, and insomnia. This is often exacerbated by the disbelief many torture victims encounter, especially if they are unable to produce scars, or other “objective” proof of their ordeal. Language cannot communicate such an intensely private experience as pain.
(“Pain is also unsharable in that it is resistant to language… All our interior states of consciousness: emotional, perceptual, cognitive and somatic can be described as having an object in the external world… This affirms our capacity to move beyond the boundaries of our body into the external, sharable world. This is the space in which we interact and communicate with our environment. But when we explore the interior state of physical pain we find that there is no object ‘out there’ – no external, referential content. Pain is not of, or for, anything. Pain is. And it draws us away from the space of interaction, the sharable world, inwards. It draws us into the boundaries of our body.”)
Bystanders resent those victimized by rape because it makes them feel guilty and ashamed for having done nothing to prevent the atrocity. Rape victims threaten their sense of security and their much-needed belief in predictability, justice, and rule of law. Those victimized by rape, on their part, do not believe that it is possible to effectively communicate to “outsiders” what they have been through.
“It is very tempting to take the side of the perpetrator. All the perpetrator asks is that the bystander do nothing. He appeals to the universal desire to see, hear, and speak no evil. The rape victim, on the contrary, asks the bystander to share the burden of pain. The rape victim demands action, engagement, and remembering.”
But, more often, continued attempts to repress fearful memories result in psychosomatic illnesses (conversion). The rape victim wishes to forget the torture, to avoid re-experiencing the often life threatening abuse and to shield his or her human environment from the horrors. In conjunction with the victim’s pervasive distrust, this is frequently interpreted as hyper vigilance, or even paranoia. It (“seems”) that female and male victims can’t win. For many Victims of Rape, Torture is forever.
R
Reservoir_Dog
Guest
That’s not particularly helpful, in a discussion over why some insist on blaming the woman for her own rape.Christians should not be dirty dancing. Period! Unless it is in front of one’s husband while alone together.
T
ToeInTheWater
Guest
I’ve heard of a case of a woman wearing a purity ring who was raped. Apparently, she had been earlier subject to much sexual harassment by the rapist as well as other men who ridiculed her commitment to chastity as a single person, and saving her first sexual experience for her wedding night. Seems that to some people here, this woman was guilty of instigating the rape by flaunting her purity. She should have just kept that ring off and kept her mouth shut!
Yes, I am being SARCASTIC here! (Didn’t want to cause any more misunderstandings…)
Yes, I am being SARCASTIC here! (Didn’t want to cause any more misunderstandings…)
R
Reservoir_Dog
Guest
What is a purity ring? advertising virginity???I’ve heard of a case of a woman wearing a purity ring who was raped. Apparently, she had been earlier subject to much sexual harassment by the rapist as well as other men who ridiculed her commitment to chastity as a single person, and saving her first sexual experience for her wedding night. Seems that to some people here, this woman was guilty of instigating the rape by flaunting her purity. She should have just kept that ring off and kept her mouth shut!
Yes, I am being SARCASTIC here! (Didn’t want to cause any more misunderstandings…)
T
ToeInTheWater
Guest
Yes, a purity ring is a ring that some women wear (usually on their left-hand ring finger), some are shaped like a plain wedding band, some have slogans such as “True Love Waits” printed on them, some have religious images such as a cross.
One organization (evangelical, I believe) that sponsors purity rings is The Silver Ring Thing.
silverringthing.com
Their rings are made of sterling silver and engraved with “Thes4:3:4”.
Anyway, apparently sometimes people who wear these rings are subject to sexual harassment, and there has even been a reported case of rape.
So it seemed to me that if running around naked is supposed to “instigate” men into rape, it seems that to some men, wearing a purity ring is “instigation” too.
Sorry if this is a poor analogy.
One organization (evangelical, I believe) that sponsors purity rings is The Silver Ring Thing.
silverringthing.com
Their rings are made of sterling silver and engraved with “Thes4:3:4”.
Anyway, apparently sometimes people who wear these rings are subject to sexual harassment, and there has even been a reported case of rape.
So it seemed to me that if running around naked is supposed to “instigate” men into rape, it seems that to some men, wearing a purity ring is “instigation” too.
Sorry if this is a poor analogy.
R
Reservoir_Dog
Guest
Regardless, is an inexplicable practice. If they’re trying to brag… its not working.…
So it seemed to me that if running around naked is supposed to “instigate” men into rape, it seems that to some men, wearing a purity ring is “instigation” too.
Sorry if this is a poor analogy.
D
DLT
Guest
Evidently, you did not read my first post, and one of my latter posts did not go through. I said in the first that under most circumstances the answer is “No”, a woman is not resposible for being raped. Never-the-less, there are a few circumstances where a woman does bare some of the responsiblity, even though the man or men who raped her should be severely punished. One instance was when a woman went to a bar alone, got drunk and danced extremely provacatively in front of several drunken men, and they raped her. I said that she bore some of the responsibility for letting herself get in that condition, and they bore the crime of raping her. Also a bartender who allowed it all to happen without calling the police was responsible too. I think he also went to prison, along with some of the rapists who were rightly sent to prison.That’s not particularly helpful, in a discussion over why some insist on blaming the woman for her own rape.
I am a mother of two daughters and a grandmother of three grandsons and two granddaughters. I said in the post, that evidently did not go through, that parents need to tell their daughters to stay out of such situations. Women should not be going to bars to get drunk and young men should be told not to let themselves get drunk, especially to the point where they lose those consciences and in some instances don’t even remember what they did if they become alcoholic and have blackouts. It ruins lives no matter who is responsible.
P
PetersKeys
Guest
Actions without any consequences? sin of presumption?Nope, you’re wrong. My body is my body and my private property no matter where I go. Nobody has a right to violate it, nobody. Doesn’t matter what I wear, what I have ingested or what actions I’ve done or not done.
actually, it DOES matter what you have done or instigated. If you instigated a fight with someone the fact that you will probably get hurt is partly your fault…If you instigated a fire in a building and you got burned down inside it, it would be YOUR fault. If you act like a harlot and goad scumbag men to come on to you, or goad them while being a drunken fool, then what happens it partly YOUR fault…If you go into a black neighborhood and start calling people the N word, then what happens to you is partly YOUR fault…
P
PetersKeys
Guest
yes I agree. It is all dependent on the situation and whether the person is causing trouble or instigating others…This while mindset of “I can do whatever I want without any consequences” is such a ‘typical’ mindset of spoiled westerners. Probably one of the reasons whys families are so messed up in the west and so many false-rape charges are being thrown aroundEvidently, you did not read my first post, and one of my latter posts did not go through. I said in the first that under most circumstances the answer is “No”, a woman is not resposible for being raped. Never-the-less, there are a few circumstances where a woman does bare some of the responsiblity, even though the man or men who raped her should be severely punished. One instance was when a woman went to a bar alone, got drunk and danced extremely provacatively in front of several drunken men, and they raped her. I said that she bore some of the responsibility for letting herself get in that condition, and they bore the crime of raping her. Also a bartender who allowed it all to happen without calling the police was responsible too. I think he also went to prison, along with some of the rapists who were rightly sent to prison.
I am a mother of two daughters and a grandmother of three grandsons and two granddaughters. I said in the post, that evidently did not go through, that parents need to tell their daughters to stay out of such situations. Women should not be going to bars to get drunk and young men should be told not to let themselves get drunk, especially to the point where they lose those consciences and in some instances don’t even remember what they did if they become alcoholic and have blackouts. It ruins lives no matter who is responsible.
M
Michael_Francis
Guest
Closed pending Mod review.
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