Question: are women to blame for being raped if they were wearing revealing clothing according to teaching?

[Sister_Angel]

well, no… there are similarities. A woman getting raped because she went to some sleazy bar, dressing lustfully, getting drunk, acting and dancing lustful and sluttish, leading on men, doing drugs, reckless, and being careless/ditzy is similar to someone going to a bad area and starting ruckus with people. Both people are instigating bad influences to magnetize towards them.

Not all crimes are the same. According to your jaded view, rape would be equal everywhere. It is not. Rather rape is more common in areas where there is more violence, sex, lust, drugs, and alcohol.

Outer influences, like alcohol or lust, DO have involvement. And the more bad things you mix the more volatile a situation can become.

Gee Peter, all this you speak of a woman doing, is from what i can see, not against the laws, but rape sure is. I am not saying it is a good thing i am stating a fact it is not against the laws to go out to a bar or club some woman do this and still get raped or gang raped even if they don’t drink and they are with their boyfriends. People that don’t think straight and really have hang ups think it’s a woman’s fault but it is the fault of a week mind in all cases, no one forces a man to do anything, he chooses to do this for his own reasons. Blaming clothes and makeup and you can go on forever blaming ,but the fact is they choose to rape, they are sickies!

 

[Sister_Angel]

Peter, i am in my bedroom fast to sleep, and home invasion, I get raped. Now the guy gets caught and they ask him why he did this. He said because she was flaunting herself in the window and i was standing right there and watching her undress etc. She tempted me, should he have been doing this? Should he have walked away?Could he have let the neighborhood watch know? Why should he, it’s his decision to go in and do what he feels she deserves. HEY!

 

[Sister_Angel]

"Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die." (Sirach 25:24)

And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. - 1 Timothy 2:14

But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. - 2 Corinthians 11:3

You notice how Paul omits Adam in both those verses?

Also, Adam HEARKENED unto his wife. Meaning he took his wife’s direction out of conjugal love. And because of this Adam was put in authority over Eve(Genesis 3:16) since Eve was second in the transgression(Satan first), and Adam, last.

Adam and Eve both sinned. But it was Eve who was the deceived one, as God(not you) clearly states in scripture. I can also give you many ECF quotes too…take your egalitarian garbage elsewhere…I don’t care what the 21st century says, I care what God says…The 21st century egalitarian, 50% divorce rate, view of men and women has done an ENORMOUS amount of damage to marriage

Dear Peter, has this never happened to you? I think you had this happen to you because of your bitterness:

deceive - be false to; be dishonest with
deceive - cause someone to believe an untruth; “The insurance company deceived me when they told me they were covering my house”
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

deception - misrepresentation: a misleading falsehood
deception - the act of deceiving
deception - magic trick: an illusory feat; considered magical by naive observers
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Deception, beguilement, deceit, bluff, mystification, and subterfuge are acts to propagate beliefs that are not true, or not the whole truth (as in half-truths or omission). Deception can involve dissimulation, propaganda, sleight of hand. It can employ distraction, camouflage or concealment. …

Deception - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[MindOverMatter2]

I dare say that the rape mentality stems from insecurities, or sexual inadequacy, a sense of powerlessness, a feeling of not being able to communicate successfully with the opposite sex. Such frustrations could turn in to a desire to rape or hate a women; although I would be careful to point out that having these frustrations does not necessitate a lust to rape people. I think there is always the possibility that a man will rape a women because in his warped mind he imagines that he has a right to a women’s body. Or rape could also occur because he wants a particular women he can’t have. Either way it mostly stems from a warped sense of sexuality and self.

The reason why women dress sexy is for the same reason that a man makes violence apart of his personality. At root it is a lust for some kind of power or security. Its is natural to desire power since the power of God is the end for which we exist; but in our weak sinful state we have a warped sense of power in terms of what we think will fulfil that desire. Women know the reaction they get from men when they dress a certain way, and thus they experience a sense of control or power. Thus it has become widely popular among the youth to be sexy. I dare say some women do it almost unconsciously, dressing sexy simply because that’s the way popular women happen to dress; even young kids want to dress sexy because they want to copy their favourite girl band. Sexuality has become warped and exploited for financial gain. Bottom line, women like to be worshipped for their sexuality and it is encouraged and monopolised on by the media and the music industry. But if men payed less attention to a women’s curves and payed more attention to a women’s personality, the trend would soon die off, since personality would then be perceived by some women as the new root to power and security. Unconsciously what we really desire is God; but this can be confused with a desire to be God. Thus men are partly responsible for this sin if not the source of it, since they participate in it and promote it like male cheerleaders. Dressing sensibly is seen as a weakness because dressing sexy has been confused with having security and power. Similarly, for men, a loving and sensitive nature is seen as a weakness, because men confuse true power and respect with intimidation and the ability to oppress and enslave those around you through fear.

Is rape a women’s fault? In a direct sense No. But that is not an excuse alleviating us from recognising the power of sex. I dare say that rape is a product of humanities warped sense of sexuality and personality; and thus every-time somebody entertains and promotes our warped understanding of things, they perhaps take on some of the responsibility for why people are raped, but in a very indirect sense.

I am not saying that women are responsible for their own rape. But if you entertain sin you participate in the the very same darkness from which the wikidness of rape and other foul things emerge. We are all responsible for each-other.

Of course this is just my take on things; and quite naturally I could be wrong.

 

[centurionguard]

I dare say that the rape mentality stems from insecurities, or sexual inadequacy, a sense of powerlessness, a feeling of not being able to communicate successfully with the opposite sex.

With all due respect what your saying here is completely and substantially false.

Rape has nothing to do with sexual inadequacies etc etc. Rape is purely an act of violence and control. Plain and simple, violence and control are the key goals of most rapists. The criminal wishes to control the victim and, most times, the criminal exerts that control through violence or threats or both at once. Only once one realizes that rape has nothing to do with sex can one finally come to understand what rape really is.

Rape has never been about sex. When you hear a rapist claim that the act of rape was sex or consensual sex, right off the bat, you can pretty much guess that the criminal is fabricating a story. Rape is not about sex. Rape is not sex.

There is nothing sexy at all about rape, and anyone can fall victim to it. Rape does not discriminate on the basis of physical appearance, clothing, nationality, age, religion, ability, status, class, or nationality. Rapists are criminals and they will rape anyone that they want to rape. However, there are things that you can do to lessen your chances of being that next victim. There are no guarantees—just preparations and warnings.

No rape victim asks to be raped nor wants to be raped. When society does not understand the crime of rape, society ignorantly states that the victim asked for it. No one would want a violent crime committed against himself or herself, and that includes rape victims.

When we judge or stigmatize the victims of rape and when we allow rapists to go free, we allow society to think that is okay to rape.

All that is necessary is a violent nature and the wish to control another human being. A rapist can be a 18-year-old or a rapist can be a 78-year-old. Rapists do not fall into a particular category, description, or stereotype. Rapists know no limits and transcend all ages, professions, religions, classes, neighborhoods, ethnicities.

Rape happens within marriages and spousal relationships. Nevertheless, rape within a marriage is still rape. Rape is a crime. Yet, many boyfriends and husbands are never held accountable for this crime.

What young men and women need to learn and to remember is that it does not matter what kind of date you have any more than it matters what kind of person you choose to date. Dating someone—going to a movie or having a casual dinner together—does not imply that one must have sex. Dating someone does constitute consent: dating someone does not give anyone the authority or permission to rape another. Regardless of the money spent on a date, fancy restaurant, movie, or gift, absolutely nobody has the right to demand sex from another. No means no.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Y’know, I think people are arguing different issues here, and branching off the OP’s question.

It looks like no one believes women are to “blame” as in morally culpable, needing to go to Confession, etc, or that a rapist’s sin is mitigated due to whatever a woman did.

However, still to be debated is the question of whether there are certain strategies women can employ to make it less likely that they will be the victim of rape. I think most people would agree that a woman being drunk or stoned would increase the risk of being a rape victim, as it would for her to be walking down a deserted alley listening to her ipod.

I know a woman who was not raped, but did have to endure a man making very aggressive sexual advances toward her before she kicked him out of her apartment – luckily for her, he did eventually leave. Now, this woman is known to be very physically affectionate with friends and acquaintances, both with women and men…hugging, touching on the shoulder, sometimes sitting in men’s laps. Also, the man in question had a very widespread reputation as a “player” who had a different partner every week, etc. So certainly, this woman could have made better choices than to invite this man into her apartment. However, if she had wound up assaulted, she would not have “deserved it”…though I’m sure the man’s defense would be that she invited him in and cuddled with him, so that meant she must have consented.

So…making poor decisions, like the one above, or flashing a big wad of bills in a known violence-prone neighborhood, or leaving your car unlocked and running while you run to the convenience store to get a cup of coffee, is one thing. I don’t think advising people to make better decisions means you are blaming them for any crimes that befall them.

However, there still seems to be debate over whether dressing a certain way would increase or decrease the risk of being raped, or not. To some people, it’s just “common sense” that it would. But there’s no way to carry out an actual experiment to test this. Some may say that the fact that reported rapes have increased over the same time period as women’s fashions became more and more revealing is proof. However, there is the major confounder that rape is reported much more often than it used to be.

Statistics from predominantly Muslim countries, where women are more covered, are somewhat questionable because their definitions of rape may be different. Also, many woman will not report rape because of the shame it will bring to their families. In some Asian countries where traditional dress for women is modest, women were also traditionally expected to commit suicide to avert rape, or to expunge the shame to the family if they survived rape. They would not be considered virgins, and any chance of a “good” marriage (as these cultures usually practiced arranged marriage) would be lost forever, and often other women in the family would also be seen as damaged goods. So obviously, rape tends to be underreported in such countries. However, I don’t think anyone would claim that rape doesn’t occur at all in such countries.

So, I’m not sure if we can ever resolve this question. I would say, though, that there are plenty of other reasons to recommend modesty for women than to say “if you dress a certain way you could get raped”.

 

[JaneGrey]

Y’know, I think people are arguing different issues here, and branching off the OP’s question.

It looks like no one believes women are to “blame” as in morally culpable, needing to go to Confession, etc, or that a rapist’s sin is mitigated due to whatever a woman did.

 

[centurionguard]

ToeInTheWater wrote:

It looks like no one believes women are to “blame” as in morally culpable, needing to go to Confession, etc, or that a rapist’s sin is mitigated due to whatever a woman did.

What you state here can easily be seen by many in society as a scapegoat placing culpability in a generalized manner against all women who fall victims to rape.
I don’t believe anyone is ignoring the fact that (“some”) women dress provocative or sleazy. There is no guarantee that warrants protection for women against rape in whatever fashion they dress. Of course prudence is in order if a woman morally chooses in hindsight to dress more respectably, but it does not guarantee her safe guard against rape.

It strongly seems to me that the OP’s titled thread putting culpable blame ("In a perceived mainstay generalized fashion as if saying most woman who are victims of rape dress promiscuously. Is this truly fair to the majority of women who fall victims of rape? Absolutely not!

Such reasoning would only lighten the burden of culpability and give excuse to male rapist to lessen their guilt and their sinful primitive actions.

ToeInTheWater Wrote:

I know a woman who was not raped, but did have to endure a man making very aggressive sexual advances toward her before she kicked him out of her apartment – luckily for her, he did eventually leave. Now, this woman is known to be very physically affectionate with friends and acquaintances, both with women and men…hugging, touching on the shoulder, sometimes sitting in men’s laps. Also, the man in question had a very widespread reputation as a “player” who had a different partner every week, etc. So certainly, this woman could have made better choices than to invite this man into her apartment. However, if she had wound up assaulted, she would not have “deserved it”…though I’m sure the man’s defense would be that she invited him in and cuddled with him, so that meant she must have consented.

You make one promiscuous example among similar instances. However; does the example you give generalize the mainstay thinking of society that the

("Majority

of women who fall victims of rape is due to similar circumstances? I don’t buy into this at all.

Far to often history has shown down through the centuries and several millenniums that male rapists (“didn’t need any provocation from a woman”) to give reason to savagely rape women.

Rape is about Power and Violence against women, not the primitive lustful sexual inclinations of a rapist to get his sexual release.

When I was Gang-Raped and Tortured at Gunpoint my assailants were two men and one woman. In the five horrifying hours that transpired it had nothing nothing to do with my assailants getting a sexual thrill despite their physical reactionary filth. Everything was about Power, Control and Violence.

Not totally surprising in this thread no one even considers the Psychological destruction that Rape inflicts (“for a lifetime”) on the Victims mental resolve and often how Rape shatters the human soul into a billion pieces. Nobody deserves to be raped, abused or endure incest.

Two men were also raped during my shattering experience. One week after my gang-rape one other male victim who suffered at my side committed suicide.

No one deserves Rape.

 

[manualman]

MindOverMatter 2;:

false.

Rape has nothing to do with sexual inadequacies etc etc. Rape is purely an act of violence and control. Plain and simple, violence and control are the key goals of most rapists. The criminal wishes to control the victim and, most times, the criminal exerts that control through violence or threats or both at once. Only once one realizes that rape has nothing to do with sex can one finally come to understand what rape really is.

Rape has never been about sex…

This is a very fashionably PC notion right now. Unfortunately, it is a gross oversimplification, at best. Human beings are complex critters and their motivations are never as simple as pundits would like us to believe. Rapists are not merely subhuman brutes bent on evil domination. They too were created in the image and likeness of God, but have fallen in a way somewhat more severe than most of us. That process of the fall does not simply happen like falling off a cliff. It is more like a process. In some cases a rapist is simply a mysoginist (one who hates women) and does not care who his victim is. In other cases, his violence IS specifically sexual in nature because it is a hateful reaction against how he feels weak and powerless in his dealings with women.

Rape is like murder in that there are a horrifying number of complex motivations. I have a close loved one who was once a victim of “date rape” (as it was called at the time). I’m quite familiar with the outcome. It is just as evil a crime as the random stranger kind, but it is simply ignorant to say that it has nothing to do with sex. It just has nothing to do with sexual INTIMACY. On that count, I certainly agree. But I cannot fathom how anyone can conclude that sexual lust has nothing to do with rape.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

With all due respect what your saying here is completely and substantially false.

Rape has nothing to do with sexual inadequacies etc etc. Rape is purely an act of violence and control.

Control and violence can be one of the factors. Power is always one of the main reasons. But to say that a desire for sex can’t be a factor is clearly false and unsubstantiated; anyone that has experienced lust knows that; but perhaps your a saint. Its evidently possible that if somebody has a sexual lust and a warped personality that these factors could have the effect of rape. And if you read what i said properly you would see that i do not blame women for being raped or because they dress sexy.

I resent your implication that i somehow agree with rape.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

… But I cannot fathom how anyone can conclude that sexual lust has nothing to do with rape.

Argument from ignorance is a fallacy. What you can or cannot fathom has no bearing on this issue.

For a real world study of convicted rapists, see, Lisak, D.; Roth, S. (1988). Motivational factors in nonincarcerated sexually aggressive men. J Pers Soc Psychol 55 (5): 795–802. doi:10.1037/0022-3514.55.5.795. PMID 3210146 which cites anger and control needs.

Argument from ignorance here is also intolerable, as anything whatsoever that suggests that rapists are not completely responsible for their actions inevitably puts the part of the blame on the victim, and modern society will not accept this.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

centurionguard;7274197:

This is a very fashionably PC notion right now. Unfortunately, it is a gross oversimplification, at best. Human beings are complex critters and their motivations are never as simple as pundits would like us to believe. Rapists are not merely subhuman brutes bent on evil domination. They too were created in the image and likeness of God, but have fallen in a way somewhat more severe than most of us. That process of the fall does not simply happen like falling off a cliff. It is more like a process. In some cases a rapist is simply a mysoginist (one who hates women) and does not care who his victim is. In other cases, his violence IS specifically sexual in nature because it is a hateful reaction against how he feels weak and powerless in his dealings with women.

Rape is like murder in that there are a horrifying number of complex motivations. I have a close loved one who was once a victim of “date rape” (as it was called at the time). I’m quite familiar with the outcome. It is just as evil a crime as the random stranger kind, but it is simply ignorant to say that it has nothing to do with sex. It just has nothing to do with sexual INTIMACY. On that count, I certainly agree. But I cannot fathom how anyone can conclude that sexual lust has nothing to do with rape.

Thanks for the back up.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

…
I resent your implication that i somehow agree with rape.

Your words speak for themselves. I doubt that you “agree with rape” but I get the impression that in some instances, you’d be happy blaming the victim in some way for getting raped.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Argument from ignorance here is also intolerable, as anything whatsoever that suggests that rapists are not completely responsible for their actions inevitably puts the part of the blame on the victim, and modern society will not accept this.

I don’t think that the person you quoted argued that a women deserves to be raped or is responsible for that rape. A blanket denial of the possibility that a person will rape for lustful reasons as well as a desire for power, is willful ignorance. Bottom-line rape involves sex, thus the possibility is clearly evident. Its not relevant what society is willing to accept.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

I don’t think that the person you quoted argued that a women deserves to be raped or is responsible for that rape. A blanket denial of the possibility that a person will rape for lustful reasons as well as a desire for power, is willful ignorance. Bottom-line rape involves sex, thus the possibility is clearly evident. Its not relevant what society is willing to accept.

Involves sex, as in, the use of inanimate objects as well?

I look at this from a practical perspective. The “overcome by lust” defense in a rape trial isn’t going to work.

 

[centurionguard]

Control and violence can be one of the factors. Power is always one of the main reasons. But to say that a desire for sex can’t be a factor is clearly false and unsubstantiated; anyone that has experienced lust knows that; but perhaps your a saint. Its evidently possible that if somebody has a sexual lust and a warped personality that these factors could have the effect of rape. And if you read what i said properly you would see that i do not blame women for being raped or because they dress sexy.

I resent your implication that i somehow agree with rape.

…

Hello MindOverMatter 2;

Please allow me to respectfully affirm that I in no way officially insinuated or implicated that you somehow agree with rape. And yes I did read the rest of your post

I disagreed only with your opening sentence

I dare say that the rape mentality stems from insecurities, or sexual inadequacy, a sense of powerlessness, a feeling of not being able to communicate successfully with the opposite sex.

Yes; primitive sexual lust does play into part of

**some scenario’s regarding circumstances between rapist and victims **

But I don’t regard sexual lust as being the main pivotal point and finite reason why savage men rape women, why savage men rape men and why savage men rape children.

Rape primarily is about Power, Violence and Control. Lust plays a secondary part in some circumstantial cases but cannot be regarded as the main reason for rape.

 

[centurionguard]

manualman;7275851:

Originally Posted by centurionguard

You misquoted me as writing the above. Manualman is the author. Try again

 

[manualman]

…Argument from ignorance here is also intolerable, as anything whatsoever that suggests that rapists are not completely responsible for their actions inevitably puts the part of the blame on the victim, and modern society will not accept this.

You seem entirely unable to separate the idea of trying to understand the motivations of a criminal from the idea of mitigating his responsibility for his crimes. Perhaps you simply have seen too many defense attorneys try this tactic to have a level head on the matter. But I assure you that criminals of every stripe do not simply cease being human when they commit a crime. People commit crimes for reasons. Those reasons don’t make the crime less criminal, but they DO help us understand how the crime came to happen.

IMHO the reason that you and plenty of researchers have tried so hard to divorce rape and lust is to avoid the ugly connection between our culture’s objectification of women and normalization of lust/porn/hookups and the resulting epidemic of rape. As long as people have studies to point to, they can pretend there is no link. I’m not fooled.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Involves sex, as in, the use of inanimate objects as well?

I look at this from a practical perspective. The “overcome by lust” defence in a rape trial isn’t going to work.

Why can’t you people read what I have written instead of reading your own assumptions into what I’ve written?

Where do you see me saying that a person was overcome by lust, or that such an argument should be used in a court of law in-order to justify rape??

Nowhere!

People use each-other for sex out of lust. But that doesn’t mean they were overcome by lust. Its quite possible, whether you like it or not, that a person would rape a women out of lust; not because he or she was overcome by lust, but rather because the person wanted sex with somebody who was not willing to give consent.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

You seem entirely unable to separate the idea of trying to understand the motivations of a criminal from the idea of mitigating his responsibility for his crimes. Perhaps you simply have seen too many defense attorneys try this tactic to have a level head on the matter. But I assure you that criminals of every stripe do not simply cease being human when they commit a crime. People commit crimes for reasons. Those reasons don’t make the crime less criminal, but they DO help us understand how the crime came to happen.

IMHO the reason that you and plenty of researchers have tried so hard to divorce rape and lust is to avoid the ugly connection between our culture’s objectification of women and normalization of lust/porn/hookups and the resulting epidemic of rape. As long as people have studies to point to, they can pretend there is no link. I’m not fooled.

Criminal minds have been studied, you just don’t want to accept the findings.

Apart from your opinion, do you have anything else to support this?