Question: are women to blame for being raped if they were wearing revealing clothing according to teaching?

[Sister_Angel]

Well women tend to have more power behind temptation because they know men are more visual. Eve tempted Adam to take part of the fruit. There is a reason why Satan went for Eve and not for Adam. Satan knew Eve was the weaker sex and was more easily tempted and to tempt others. This is why Adam was put in authority over her.

Dear Peter, how would you like to hear it from a womans perspective?
OK satan tempted Eve because Adam was not in the garden at the time and satan also knew that Adam would listen to what ever eve would tell him, even thouogh he was the stronger of the sexes he was in fact weaker. It took satan to tempt Eve, cause he knew it would not take much for Eve to tempt Adam. And thus you have the complete turn around from a womans perspective. Conclusion: Looks like Adam was weaker then the weaker sex. nice ha?

I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.For Adam was formed first, then Eve.And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. - 1 Timothy 2:12

And Adam was not deceived - This is the second reason why the woman should occupy a subordinate rank in all things. It is, that in the most important situation in which she was ever placed she had shown that she was not qualified to take the lead. She had evinced a readiness to yield to temptation; a feebleness of resistance; a pliancy of character, which showed that she was not adapted to the situation of headship, and which made it proper that she should ever afterward occupy a subordinate situation. It is not meant here that Adam did not sin, nor even that he was not deceived by the tempter, but that the woman opposed a feebler resistance to the temptation than he would have done, and that the temptation as actually applied to her would have been ineffectual on him. To tempt and seduce him to fall, there were needed all the soft persuasions, the entreaties, and example of his wife.

Satan understood this, and approached man not with the specious argument of the serpent, but through the allurements of his wife. It is undoubtedly implied here that man in general has a power of resisting certain kinds of temptation superior to that possessed by woman, and hence that the headship properly belongs to him. This is, undoubtedly, the general truth, though there may be many exceptions, and many noble cases to the honor of the female sex, in which they evince a power of resistance to temptation superior to man. In many traits of character, and among them those which are most lovely, woman is superior to man; yet it is undoubtedly true that, as a general thing, temptation will make a stronger impression on her than on him. When it is said that “Adam was not deceived,” it is not meant that when he partook actually of the fruit he was under no deception, but that he was not deceived by the serpent; he was not first deceived, or first in the transgression. The woman should remember that sin began with her, and she should therefore be willing to occupy an humble and subordinate situation.

But the woman being deceived - She was made to suppose that the fruit would not injure her, but would make her wise, and that God would not fulfil his threatening of death. Sin, from the beginning, has been a process of delusion. Every man or woman who violates the law of God is deceived as to the happiness which is expected from the violation, and as to the consequences which will follow it.

hence all the way back to the apple the issues of temptation has always been a mystery with regards to the female sex. And hence, when we see it with the temptation of lust, and lustful clothing, it becomes an issue since temptation has always been a magnetic trait from the woman. This is why modesty is so important in the bible. Because it nullifies occasions of sin and stumbling blocks.

*I find more bitter than death the woman who is a snare, whose heart is a trap and whose hands are chains. The man who pleases God will escape her, but the sinner she will ensnare. - Ecclesiastes 7:26

For the lips of an immoral woman are as sweet as honey, and her mouth is smoother than oil. But in the end she is as bitter as poison, as dangerous as a double-edged sword. - Proverbs 5:4

“The whoredom of a woman may be known in her haughty looks and eyelids. If thy daughter be shameless, keep her in straitly, lest she abuse herself through overmuch liberty.” (Eccles. 26:9-10)*

 

[PetersKeys]

Dear Peter, how would you like to hear it from a womans perspective?
OK satan tempted Eve because Adam was not in the garden at the time and satan also knew that Adam would listen to what ever eve would tell him, even thouogh he was the stronger of the sexes he was in fact weaker. It took satan to tempt Eve, cause he knew it would not take much for Eve to tempt Adam. And thus you have the complete turn around from a womans perspective. Conclusion: Looks like Adam was weaker then the weaker sex. nice ha?

eh…no…

maybe a modern woman’s perspective. But her perspectives will be influenced by post-modernist views.

As we see in the epistle of Peter that woman is indeed the weaker sex

*Ye husbands, likewise dwelling with them according to knowledge, giving honour to the female as to the weaker vessel, and as to the co-heirs of the grace of life: that your prayers be not hindered - 1 Peter 3:7
*

Also if Adam was the weaker sex Eve would be put in authority over Adam. Rather Adam is put in authority over Eve…It is contradiction in terms in your view then. To put someone weaker in authority over someone stronger.

“As unto the weaker vessel”; the wife is called a vessel; and here “the weaker”; being so for the most part, both as to strength of body, and endowments of mind; and therefore to be used gently and tenderly, and not be treated with neglect and contempt, or with inhumanity and severity; but as, in every state and condition, the strong are to bear the infirmities of the weak; so a man should bear with, and accommodate himself to the infirmities of his wife, and hide them as much as he can, and not expose them, nor despise her on account of them. It is a saying of the Jews (s),

"if thy wife be short of stature, bow thyself, and whisper to her.

The meaning of the proverb is, that he ought to suit himself to her capacity and weakness

“your desire will be for thy husband, and he will rule over thee” - Genesis 3:16

The third part of her sentence refers to her husband - “Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.” This is evidently a piece of that retributive justice which meets us constantly in the administration of God. The woman had taken the lead in the transgression. In the fallen state, she is to be subject to the will of her husband. “Desire” does not refer to sexual desire in particular. Genesis 4:7. It means, in general, “turn,” determination of the will. “The determination of thy will shall be yielded to thy husband, and, accordingly, he shall rule over thee.” The second clause, according to the parallel structure of the sentence, is a climax or emphatic reiteration of the first, and therefore serves to determine its meaning. Under fallen man, woman has been more or less a slave. In fact, under the rule of selfishness, the weaker must serve the stronger. Only a spiritual resurrection will restore her to her true place, as the help-meet for man.

The whole sex, which by creation was equal with man, is, for sin, made inferior, and forbidden to usurp authority, 1 Tim. 2:11, 12. The wife particularly is hereby put under the dominion of her husband, and is not sui juris-at her own disposal, of which see an instance in that law, Num. 30:6-8, where the husband is empowered, if he please, to disannul the vows made by the wife. This sentence amounts only to that command, Wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; but the entrance of sin has made that duty a punishment, which otherwise it would not have been. If man had not sinned, he would always have ruled with wisdom and love; and, if the woman had not sinned, she would always have obeyed with humility and meekness; and then the dominion would have been no grievance: but our own sin and folly make our yoke heavy. If Eve had not eaten forbidden fruit herself, and tempted her husband to eat it, she would never have complained of her subjection; therefore it ought never to be complained of, though harsh; but sin must be complained of, that made it so. Those wives who not only despise and disobey their husbands, but domineer over them, do not consider that they not only violate a divine law, but thwart a divine sentence.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

The Catholic Church teaches that sometimes a woman is to blame for her own rape? Am I reading the sense of this thread accurately?

 

[PetersKeys]

The Catholic Church teaches that sometimes a woman is to blame for her own rape? Am I reading the sense of this thread accurately?

No of course not, but there can be synergistic issues involved such as lustful clothing, drugs, alcohol, goading others, bad lifestyle or involvement in violence or gangs… there are allot of external factors that are involved. It all depends on the person and the situation.

For instance a woman who is minding her own business, dressed modesty, and doing her own thing is not to blame.

However a woman who goes to a bar, is wearing immodest clothing, drinking, partying, doing drugs, etc, and is living a generally rebellious lifestyle is putting herself at known risk because she herself is partaking in dangerous things and situations. Sin tends to beget more sin.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

No of course not, but there can be synergistic issues involved such as lustful clothing, drugs, alcohol, goading others, bad lifestyle or involvement in violence or gangs… there are allot of external factors that are involved. It all depends on the person and the situation.

For instance a woman who is minding her own business, dressed modesty, and doing her own thing is not to blame.

However a woman who goes to a bar, is wearing immodest clothing, drinking, partying, doing drugs, etc, and is living a generally rebellious lifestyle is putting herself at known risk because she herself is partaking in dangerous things and situations. Sin tends to beget more sin.

"are women to blame for being raped if they were wearing revealing clothing according to teaching?" is how you formulated the issue. In the professional world, and I suppose in the academic one as well, framing an issue like that is how claims are asserted and defended, which, in an indirect way, you are.

Very strange belief, blaming a woman for her own rape. This is something that has disappeared in most penal codes and law courts. Is this a widely held Catholic belief?

 

[PetersKeys]

"are women to blame for being raped if they were wearing revealing clothing according to teaching?" is how you formulated the issue. In the professional world, and I suppose in the academic one as well, framing an issue like that is how claims are asserted and defended, which, in an indirect way, you are.

Very strange belief, blaming a woman for her own rape. This is something that has disappeared in most penal codes and law courts. Is this a widely held Catholic belief?

I never said that, don’t put words in my mouth. I said bad actions can cause reactive bad actions to happen. Why do you think alcohol is involved in almost 50% of all rape cases?? If you are living a rebellious lifestyle the chances of violence increases greatly. That is simply reality

It all depends on the circumstances on hand and the intentions and actions of the person. A woman who is simply in the wrong place at the wrong time is not culpable at all. However a woman who is dressed like a harlot, and is going to parties, doing drugs and alcohol, goading men, and acting like a careless ditz is partly culpable because of her antagnostic actions. Its like walking into a pool of piranas and then blaming only the piranas for yourself getting hurt.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

I never said that, don’t put words in my mouth. I said bad actions can cause reactive bad actions to happen. …

[redacted]

 

[StrawberryJam]

Good topic for the Philosophy forum to pick up on after all this.

If anyone wishes to do so, I would love to see it there. Perhaps logic and faith can meet after all?

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

Good topic for the Philosophy forum to pick up on after all this.

If anyone wishes to do so, I would love to see it there. Perhaps logic and faith can meet after all?

Philosophers often seem detached from the real world, but it would be interesting to see how that plays out.

Asserting that a woman can be even partially responsible for her own rape because of the clothes she wears is a disgrace, surely this isn’t Catholic teaching in any imaginable way.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Philosophers often seem detached from the real world, but it would be interesting to see how that plays out.

Asserting that a woman can be even partially responsible for her own rape because of the clothes she wears is a disgrace, surely this isn’t Catholic teaching in any imaginable way.

Correct.It’s not Catholic teaching in any imaginable way.
But it might be the confused imaginings of some Catholic folk.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

Correct.It’s not Catholic teaching in any imaginable way.
But it might be the confused imaginings of some Catholic folk.

Its a perverse statement, uncharitable, inhuman and totally screwed up, even posed as a question. In most modern jurisdictions, if a defense attorney tried that at a rape trial, the judge would skin him alive.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Its a perverse statement, uncharitable, inhuman and totally screwed up, even posed as a question. In most modern jurisdictions, if a defense attorney tried that at a rape trial, the judge would skin him alive.

You bet, but my guess is a generation or two ago things in some courtrooms were different.Thankfully those attitudes have mostly changed in our society, but apparrently not completely & not everywhere.

 

[centurionguard]

Question: are women to blame for being raped if they were wearing revealing clothing according to teaching?

Sigh! I find it a little strange in this thread that NO MAN here has even dared to bring up the topic about (“men”) in contrast to women who are are also on a grandiose scale victims of rape. Hmm; is it to say that through bias speculation that when men are victims of rape, it is because they were wearing revealing clothing?

Is it to be assumed through bias and myth that ONLY men who are gay or prison convicts the reason men are raped?

I don’t buy any of this hogwash in my experience of being a Asexual/Heterosexual victim of gang-rape at gunpoint. My gang-rape was pure unfortunate happenstance along with two other male victims against three highly drugged assailants.

Neither do I buy into secular or one-sided biblical assertions saying that women are pigeonholed as the weaker sex. Weaker sex in what way? Physical strength yes.
What…women are more cunning in their ways in knowing how to seduce?
I’d say that in our modern world of overinflated Sexual Culture and Expression that men are damned adept in the thorough knowledge and practice of seduction as well. Nothing proves that women are less intellectual than men. So I’d certainly like to know how women are weaker or the lessor of the two sexes? What? did I miss something in life that made me naive?

From the very moment and inception of the human race by God; man himself as part of the human race has been pitting himself in pride as lording it over women his equal partner. Man is not complete in this world without his equally created second half.
Male and Female did God create in the fullness of the human race.

Peace
Chris

 

[Sonny1954]

Absolutely NOT! If a woman says NO!, to forced sex, then it does not matter if she’s strolling down the street with nothing in the world on but a stove pipe hat. Blaming the woman is the oldest legal defense of rape defendants.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

You bet, but my guess is a generation or two ago things in some courtrooms were different.Thankfully those attitudes have mostly changed in our society, but apparrently not completely & not everywhere.

They were. I haven’t reviewed all states penal codes, but I’m fairly sure that in almost every state, you can’t bring up how a woman dresses or her past sexual history as a defense.

There’s no accounting for attitudes, but, however barbaric, opinions like that don’t count.

 

[Sister_Angel]

No of course not, but there can be synergistic issues involved such as lustful clothing, drugs, alcohol, goading others, bad lifestyle or involvement in violence or gangs… there are allot of external factors that are involved. It all depends on the person and the situation.

For instance a woman who is minding her own business, dressed modesty, and doing her own thing is not to blame.

However a woman who goes to a bar, is wearing immodest clothing, drinking, partying, doing drugs, etc, and is living a generally rebellious lifestyle is putting herself at known risk because she herself is partaking in dangerous things and situations. Sin tends to beget more sin.

21st century tells me that we are not just equal, but bars and lounges are not just for men.You talk as an old colloquial judge, and both Adam and Eve sinned not just one do not blame her, because Adam was with God before her and knew more and knew God and named the animals etc. Eve was only weaker in body strength not mind, and woman are stronger to have children, men would never make it.,Adam was the weaker one because he should have been the boss right? and told her put that down it is not right to go against God but he all knowing, decided to go right ahead because of want, wanting to know more, have more, become more, just as they are today.No one should be blamed for anothers sin. I am having a hard enough time trying to understand why the whole world still suffers for this but i guess it is because we are not perfect yet and once we are then no more sin, or blame.

 

[JaneGrey]

Sigh! I find it a little strange in this thread that NO MAN here has even dared to bring up the topic about (“men”) in contrast to women who are are also on a grandiose scale victims of rape. Hmm; is it to say that through bias speculation that when men are victims of rape, it is because they were wearing revealing clothing?

Is it to be assumed through bias and myth that ONLY men who are gay or prison convicts the reason men are raped?

I don’t buy any of this hogwash in my experience of being a Asexual/Heterosexual victim of gang-rape at gunpoint. My gang-rape was pure unfortunate happenstance along with two other male victims against three highly drugged assailants.

Neither do I buy into secular or one-sided biblical assertions saying that women are pigeonholed as the weaker sex. Weaker sex in what way? Physical strength yes.
What…women are more cunning in their ways in knowing how to seduce?
I’d say that in our modern world of overinflated Sexual Culture and Expression that men are damned adept in the thorough knowledge and practice of seduction as well. Nothing proves that women are less intellectual than men. So I’d certainly like to know how women are weaker or the lessor of the two sexes? What? did I miss something in life that made me naive?

From the very moment and inception of the human race by God; man himself as part of the human race has been pitting himself in pride as lording it over women his equal partner. Man is not complete in this world without his equally created second half.
Male and Female did God create in the fullness of the human race.

Peace
Chris

Wow I am really sorry for what happened to you. I myself have been molested by both men and women, so I know first hand that women are perfectly capable of doing evil deeds as much as men. Unfortunately many think its untrue or somehow a joke, the idea of a woman molesting someone.

Yes women are physically weaker than men, especially in the upper body. But thats all there is to it. I find it odd when people try to ascribe things to each gender because of this physical difference. I m not saying there are zero differences, but people take it too far all the time.

By the way, did you know that it is possible for many women to have equal lower body strength to men, provided all other physical factors are equal.

 

[StrawberryJam]

They were. I haven’t reviewed all states penal codes, but I’m fairly sure that in almost every state, you can’t bring up how a woman dresses or her past sexual history as a defense.

There’s no accounting for attitudes, but, however barbaric, opinions like that don’t count.

I am quoting your post that responds to Cracker Mom’s post.

Cracker Mom makes it clear that there is or should be a reliance on a court of law, not their beliefs that should be considered.

Thoughts?

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

I am quoting your post that responds to Cracker Mom’s post.

Cracker Mom makes it clear that there is or should be a reliance on a court of law, not their beliefs that should be considered.

Thoughts?

This is from the California Evidence Code Sec; 1103(c). It;s not complete, the stuff I’m leaving off is technical … but this is the heart of it…

(1) … evidence of specific instances of the complaining witness’ sexual conduct, or any of that evidence,
is not admissible by the defendant in order to prove consent by the complaining witness.

(2) Notwithstanding paragraph (3), evidence of the manner in which the victim was dressed at the time of
the commission of the offense shall not be admissible when offered by either party on the issue of consent
in any prosecution for an offense ,

This is to prevent the trial of a rapist from turning into the trial of the victim. Because we don’t blame the woman for her own rape, as seems to be the preference of some on this thread.

 

[PetersKeys]

[redacted]

no, you just not wanting to deal with reality.

rape is not the same in all cases. There are differences. And many of it depends on violence, sex, alcohol, and drugs…

Violence begets violence. Areas with higher rates of violence have higher rates of rape. Areas with lower, lower rates. Why do you think rape is so common in prison? because violence and perversion are infested all over the place…