Question: are women to blame for being raped if they were wearing revealing clothing according to teaching?

[mommamaree]

LOL…I am sure that would go over well. “Uhhh, before we do this, can I just see some ID and your medical history?”

If it kills the mood, fine. But do you really think it wise to exchange bodily fluids and insert part of one’s body into the body of another without even so much as verifying a person’s name, age, and health? If people do stupid things, negative consequences can occur. It does no one any good to stick one’s head in the sand and pretend that people don’t lie about their name, age, or health. If you don’t want to check, if you don’t want to reduce the risks or reprecussions for yourself, then why should society bolster you in your choices?

Edited to Add: these are merely rhetorical questions here, I am not implying that any of these questions are addressed to you, bingbang, or to any other posters.

 

[markomalley]

You present a good argument here, but my only response is that fornication is fornication. It is all sinful, but is acceptable in varying degrees to societies around the world.

I actually agree fully with what you are saying. And back to the OP, if actual Catholic morality was being followed, the original question would not have been raised:

http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/9299/vaticandresscodesign.jpg

From the CCC:

* 2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity. *
* **2522 ** Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one’s choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet. *
* **2523 ** There is a modesty of the feelings as well as of the body. It protests, for example, against the voyeuristic explorations of the human body in certain advertisements, or against the solicitations of certain media that go too far in the exhibition of intimate things. Modesty inspires a way of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the pressures of prevailing ideologies. *

• 2524 The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person. *

• But we don’t teach that very much anymore, do we? Modesty requires that the individual takes responsibility for him or herself. See post 63 above.

I just think that justifying certain behaviors because of various fornication laws around the world has no place in Catholic discussions.

When one abandons the teachings of the Church, things tend to get really complex in order to attempt to establish some form of justice.

***2348 *All the baptized are called to chastity. the Christian has "put on Christ,"134 The model for all chastity. All Christ’s faithful are called to lead a chaste life in keeping with their particular states of life. At the moment of his Baptism, the Christian is pledged to lead his affective life in chastity.

***2349 *"People should cultivate [chastity] in the way that is suited to their state of life. Some profess virginity or consecrated celibacy which enables them to give themselves to God alone with an undivided heart in a remarkable manner. Others live in the way prescribed for all by the moral law, whether they are married or single."135 Married people are called to live conjugal chastity; others practice chastity in continence:

There are three forms of the virtue of chastity: the first is that of spouses, the second that of widows, and the third that of virgins. We do not praise any one of them to the exclusion of the others… This is what makes for the richness of the discipline of the Church.136
***2350 *Those who are engaged to marry are called to live chastity in continence. They should see in this time of testing a discovery of mutual respect, an apprenticeship in fidelity, and the hope of receiving one another from God. They should reserve for marriage the expressions of affection that belong to married love. They will help each other grow in chastity.
*
…

**2353 **Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.
*​

Very simple rules. Yet it gets very complex when one chooses to live outside of what the Church teaches.

Now, as far as things not being appropriate for Catholic discussions, let me proffer this thesis to you:

I, personally, have learned a lot from this thread. Understanding what I have learned here has taught me in profound ways about the current sexual climate as compared to when I came of age in the 70s. And there is a profound change, believe me. This has given me some serious, concrete examples, when I am working with teenagers and young adults, on why, exactly, it has never been more important than today to live chastely according to one’s own state in life and to dress modestly (for both sexes). In addition to the damage that is done to one’s conscience, in addition to the damage done to one’s relationship with God, there are just a huge number of practical minefields that are out there…all of which can be avoided by simply living chastely in temperence. And that is profoundly useful and I think will help make for a far more practical presentation that is more likely to be received and digested.

 

[mommamaree]

I actually agree fully with what you are saying. And back to the OP, if actual Catholic morality was being followed, the original question would not have been raised:
When one abandons the teachings of the Church, things tend to get really complex in order to attempt to establish some form of justice.

***2348 ***All the baptized are called to chastity. the Christian has "put on Christ,"134 The model for all chastity. All Christ’s faithful are called to lead a chaste life in keeping with their particular states of life. At the moment of his Baptism, the Christian is pledged to lead his affective life in chastity.
Now, as far as things not being appropriate for Catholic discussions, let me proffer this thesis to you:

I, personally, have learned a lot from this thread. Understanding what I have learned here has taught me in profound ways about the current sexual climate as compared to when I came of age in the 70s. And there is a profound change, believe me. This has given me some serious, concrete examples, when I am working with teenagers and young adults, on why, exactly, it has never been more important than today to live chastely according to one’s own state in life and to dress modestly (for both sexes). In addition to the damage that is done to one’s conscience, in addition to the damage done to one’s relationship with God, there are just a huge number of practical minefields that are out there…all of which can be avoided by simply living chastely in temperence. And that is profoundly useful and I think will help make for a far more practical presentation that is more likely to be received and digested.
​

Well, here I totally agree with you. I thought, initially, that you were attempting to justify the behavior of men who legally/illegally have sex with underage young ladies because some countries allow it. I must have misinterpreted your points, then. I apologize for that. It just doesn’t seem right to say, well, a guy in Japan can legally fornicate in this fashion so a guy in America shouldn’t have any legal (or social?) consequences either. Especially when the whole thing is a moot point because fornication, and immodesty, is so incredibly wrong anyway. And not just for Catholics, either. This is moral law which transcends any particular religion or philosophy. And there are serious, life-long, or even fatal, consequences for those who do not take heed to the warnings. Warnings which unfortunately are not given or are even prohibited from being spoken in certain situations. ​

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/9299/vaticandresscodesign.jpg

.

I like the little images. Men should wear purple jumpsuits when visiting the Vatican while ladies can wear orange ones if they like.

 

[Big_Dummy]

I read this quote on a Catholic website explaining teachings of the Church -

scripturecatholic.com/modest_dress.html

Does this imply that women are to blame if they are raped while wearing immodest dress? I may not know a lot about Catholicism but it seems to be implying so here. I don’t know which is more likely to be insulting to people - the suggestion that men are sexual creatures who can’t help themselves, or that women who wear short skirts are asking for it.

Two negatives only make a possitive in multiplication. Even if she was naked in a nudist camp and was raped there, her nakedness does not justifly the rapist. Jesus taught that if one even looks at a lady lustfully, he has commited sexual sin with her. Rape is a sin of violence and the rapist would do it reguardless how she was dressed. Job made a contract with his eyes not to look on a woman lustfully. I seriously doubt if her “sin” caused his “sin”. Sin comes from the sin nature, not from externals.

 

[Sister_Angel]

You present a good argument here, but my only response is that fornication is fornication. It is all sinful, but is acceptable in varying degrees to societies around the world. Women and men who choose to engage in acts of fornication should be totally apprised of the laws surrounding fornication in the area in which they live, and they should follow them carefully. And really, how hard is it to ask to see an ID before climbing into bed with someone? Or perhaps even a medical history that demonstrates the person is STD-free? Casual sex should not be without consequences, legal or social, in my opinion. We should not insulate those who choose to engage in risky sexual behaviors, nor should we pity those who stupidly get themselves caught up in a situation where a crime occurs. I’m not saying we should drag them out into the streets and stone them, so don’t get me wrong. I just think that justifying certain behaviors because of various fornication laws around the world has no place in Catholic discussions.

Excellent answer! Did anyone here wonder why this question was asked in the first place?

 

[lobster]

I think that some of this is really a legal issue/policy issue than a moral issue. That is, what should society deem to be criminal behavior worthy of prosecution not to mention possible conviction, sentencing, a prison term where the convicted is at high risk of being raped himself, and likely a requirement to register as a sex offender? And what is simply bad behavior that should be societally discouraged, but not be deemed criminal?

Part of the problem with society is that it doesn’t prosecute all forms of fornication (both man and woman) among people not married to each other. It should not even matter if consent of either party exists. In that way, all forms of fornication would be rape by merit of the fact that neither party has the authority to consent. Societies which don’t prosecute fornication do a grave disservice to social justice.

 

[Sister_Angel]

I actually agree fully with what you are saying. And back to the OP, if actual Catholic morality was being followed, the original question would not have been raised:

http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/9299/vaticandresscodesign.jpg

From the CCC:

* 2521* Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.
* **2522 *** Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one’s choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet.
* **2523 *** There is a modesty of the feelings as well as of the body. It protests, for example, against the voyeuristic explorations of the human body in certain advertisements, or against the solicitations of certain media that go too far in the exhibition of intimate things. Modesty inspires a way of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the pressures of prevailing ideologies.

• 2524* The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person.

• But we don’t teach that very much anymore, do we? Modesty requires that the individual takes responsibility for him or herself. See post 63 above.

When one abandons the teachings of the Church, things tend to get really complex in order to attempt to establish some form of justice.

***2348 ***All the baptized are called to chastity. the Christian has "put on Christ,"134 The model for all chastity. All Christ’s faithful are called to lead a chaste life in keeping with their particular states of life. At the moment of his Baptism, the Christian is pledged to lead his affective life in chastity.

***2349 ***"People should cultivate [chastity] in the way that is suited to their state of life. Some profess virginity or consecrated celibacy which enables them to give themselves to God alone with an undivided heart in a remarkable manner. Others live in the way prescribed for all by the moral law, whether they are married or single."135 Married people are called to live conjugal chastity; others practice chastity in continence:

There are three forms of the virtue of chastity: the first is that of spouses, the second that of widows, and the third that of virgins. We do not praise any one of them to the exclusion of the others… This is what makes for the richness of the discipline of the Church.136
***2350 ***Those who are engaged to marry are called to live chastity in continence. They should see in this time of testing a discovery of mutual respect, an apprenticeship in fidelity, and the hope of receiving one another from God. They should reserve for marriage the expressions of affection that belong to married love. They will help each other grow in chastity.
*
…

**2353 ***Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.
​

Very simple rules. Yet it gets very complex when one chooses to live outside of what the Church teaches.

Now, as far as things not being appropriate for Catholic discussions, let me proffer this thesis to you:

I, personally, have learned a lot from this thread. Understanding what I have learned here has taught me in profound ways about the current sexual climate as compared to when I came of age in the 70s. And there is a profound change, believe me. This has given me some serious, concrete examples, when I am working with teenagers and young adults, on why, exactly, it has never been more important than today to live chastely according to one’s own state in life and to dress modestly (for both sexes). In addition to the damage that is done to one’s conscience, in addition to the damage done to one’s relationship with God, there are just a huge number of practical minefields that are out there…all of which can be avoided by simply living chastely in temperence. And that is profoundly useful and I think will help make for a far more practical presentation that is more likely to be received and digested.

I am sorry but i find your remark rather narrow minded, what chance do the others have in deprived nations against this menace of rape? And the children?Like It was stated before it does not matter how you dress it matters in the minds of man what they are thinking even the ones that were taught the right way fall and not because of a mini skirt, but because they are week minded and carnal
Modesty should nevr be a question either but people are very abusive to themselfs to want to look like they are not descent. But men should never look for a woman as scape goat for their week minds.Blessings!

 

[markomalley]

I am sorry but i find your remark rather narrow minded, what chance do the others have in deprived nations against this menace of rape? And the children?Like It was stated before it does not matter how you dress it matters in the minds of man what they are thinking even the ones that were taught the right way fall and not because of a mini skirt, but because they are week minded and carnal
Modesty should nevr be a question either but people are very abusive to themselfs to want to look like they are not descent. But men should never look for a woman as scape goat for their week minds.Blessings!

You are a little ambiguous in your comment so I’m not sure exactly what you are trying to tell me.

Are you being critical of the moral standards outlined in the Universal CCC paragraphs quoted in my post?

Are you saying that people in the developing world should not adhere to the same moral standards as those in the developed world?

Or are you saying that it is morally acceptable for a person in the developing world to dress (with respect to cultural norms) or act provocatively but not OK in the developed world?

Or are you saying that it is narrow-minded for me to instruct the kids in my middle-school CCD class and the high school kids that I work with that it is never more important than now to live chastely and to dress modestly?

Help me out here…

 

[markomalley]

I am sorry but i find your remark rather narrow minded, what chance do the others have in deprived nations against this menace of rape? And the children?Like It was stated before it does not matter how you dress it matters in the minds of man what they are thinking even the ones that were taught the right way fall and not because of a mini skirt, but because they are week minded and carnal
Modesty should nevr be a question either but people are very abusive to themselfs to want to look like they are not descent. But men should never look for a woman as scape goat for their week minds.Blessings!

You are a little ambiguous in your comment so I’m not sure exactly what you are trying to tell me.

Are you being critical of the moral standards outlined in the Universal CCC paragraphs quoted in my post?

Are you saying that people in the developing world should not adhere to the same moral standards as those in the developed world?

Or are you saying that it is morally acceptable for a person in the developing world to dress (with respect to cultural norms) or act provocatively but not OK in the developed world?

Or are you saying that it is narrow-minded for me to instruct the kids in my middle-school CCD class and the high school kids that I work with that it is never more important than now to live chastely and to dress modestly?

Help me out here…

 

[bindybox]

Yes. Rape is a crime of violence which uses sex as a weapon. Lust is not the cause of rape, a desire to do violence is the cause. Clothing has nothing to do with it, other than that some men feel anger towards, or even violently hate, attractive women. Often there is a desire to punish a woman, or all women.

Hmm. I am intrigued by the sentence “Lust is not the cause of rape, a desire to do violence is the cause”. While I agree profusely with that sentence, it is 99% the truth.
Both my best friend and I were raped from lustful men. (We have been friends for years, but she told me what happened to her; I still haven’t shared my story with her). It certainly wasn’t violent, these men just didn’t want to hear "no’.
I denied that it ever happened, and then suffered greatly for years: from weight problems, a desire to die soon, anxiety attacks, everything. I became **much ** better after I realized 1.) that a sin happened to me, and 2.) that Jesus didn’t blame me entirely. It has been a long time since these realizations occurred, and now I can see more clearly my contribution to that event that night.

 

[centurionguard]

Hmm. I am intrigued by the sentence “Lust is not the cause of rape, a desire to do violence is the cause”. While I agree profusely with that sentence, it is 99% the truth.
Both my best friend and I were raped from lustful men. (We have been friends for years, but she told me what happened to her; I still haven’t shared my story with her). It certainly wasn’t violent, these men just didn’t want to hear "no’.
I denied that it ever happened, and then suffered greatly for years: from weight problems, a desire to die soon, anxiety attacks, everything. I became **much ** better after I realized 1.) that a sin happened to me, and 2.) that Jesus didn’t blame me entirely. It has been a long time since these realizations occurred, and now I can see more clearly my contribution to that event that night.

Rape is primarily about Violence and Power. However; as a victim of Rape myself I certainly wouldn’t exclude LUST altogether as NOT having added ulterior motive role with the primitive animalistic behaviors in a rapist.

I detest the despicable, insensitive, gull of someone blaming and judging a woman for being a victim of rape, incest or sexual abuse. Am I being a Heterosexual man Gang Raped and Tortured at Gunpoint the blame of my traumatic happenstance?

I Think Not

We live in a world today were SEX has become a GOD…where LUST of every kind small or large effects every human being on this confounded earth.

As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the days when the Son of Man returns. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. Likewise, also as it was in the day of Lot. The people ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; but the same day that Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

In the Last Days;
There will be a strong preoccupation with immorality and perversion. 2 Timothy 3 states that men will be without natural affection.
1 You may be quite sure that in the last days there will be some difficult times.
2 People will be self-centred and avaricious, boastful, arrogant and rude; disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, irreligious;
3 heartless and intractable; they will be slanderers, profligates, savages and enemies of everything that is good;
4 they will be treacherous and reckless and demented by pride, preferring their own pleasure to God.
5 They will keep up the outward appearance of religion but will have rejected the inner power of it. Keep away from people like that.
6 Of the same kind, too, are those men who insinuate themselves into families in order to get influence over silly women who are obsessed with their sins and follow one craze after another,
7 always seeking learning, but unable ever to come to knowledge of the truth.
8 Just as Jannes and Jambres defied Moses, so these men defy the truth, their minds corrupt and their faith spurious.
9 But they will not be able to go on much longer: their folly, like that of the other two, must become obvious to everybody.

Romans 1:18-28 states describes many in mankind like this:

18 The retribution of God from heaven is being revealed against the ungodliness and injustice of human beings who in their injustice hold back the truth.
19 For what can be known about God is perfectly plain to them, since God has made it plain to them:
20 ever since the creation of the world, the invisible existence of God and his everlasting power have been clearly seen by the mind’s understanding of created things. And so these people have no excuse:
21 they knew God and yet they did not honour him as God or give thanks to him, but their arguments became futile and their uncomprehending minds were darkened.
22 While they claimed to be wise, in fact they were growing so stupid
23 that they exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an imitation, for the image of a mortal human being, or of birds, or animals, or crawling things.
24 That is why God abandoned them in their inmost cravings to filthy practices of dishonouring their own bodies-
25 because they exchanged God’s truth for a lie and have worshipped and served the creature instead of the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 That is why God abandoned them to degrading passions:
27 why their women have exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural practices; and the men, in a similar fashion, too, giving up normal relations with women, are consumed with passion for each other, men doing shameful things with men and receiving in themselves due reward for their perversion.
28 In other words, since they would not consent to acknowledge God, God abandoned them to their unacceptable thoughts and indecent behaviour.

AS IT WAS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH

So it has been fulfilled today,

Men buying and selling,

Casually going life’s wicked way.

Men scoff at God in derision

Or pretend He isn’t there,

Never a time to worship,

Never a need for prayer.

Immorality, violence, and wickedness

Have become the norm of the hour,

And within the Church, many stand

Devoid of personal power.

As it was in the days of Noah

And on the Great Day of the Son of Man’s return as well,

Men will scorn the Judgment,

And laugh at the thought of hell.

But as in the days of Noah

The flood of Judgment must fall,

Praise God the ark of Jesus,

Has room enough for all.

So God is looking for Noah Souls

God is looking for good men and women,

Who trusting His Word remain faithful to His laws,

Until He comes again.

As it was in the days of Noah

So even today it is true.

 

[PetersKeys]

It’s yes and no type answer…

Women attract what they advertise for… That is the way they dress… If she looks like a prostitute, men will assume that is what she wants and the weak men will go for her. The depraved man or the man with perverted morals may rape her.

On the other hand… A woman who dresses with modesty will have more respect from the majority of males… She will not attract (90% of the time) the type of man who is looking to sleep with her and leave in the morning. Most of the time she will attract a man with good morals himself… Still a depraved man or a man with perverted morals may rape her…

Dressing one way or the other will not prevent rape.

There are sick men who rape old ladies… There are sick men who rape little girls.

Rape is a crime… Few really know what goes on the mind of a rapist.

I agree. For instance. If a woman goes to a bar with lotsa sleazy men there, and dresses in a very lustful fashion, with alcohol too, she is creating a dangerous environment for herself because she is playing the role as a tempter, and a harlot. Hence it is a synergistic issue because of the goading involved. Alcohol is another great factor too. Since alcohol is involved in over 50% of all rape cases.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Yes, I admit, I probably wasn’t clear about the distinction. What I am saying is a person leaving keys in the car is not necessarily ‘asking’ for it to be stolen, but does provide (or could make the stretch to say, even encourages) the occasion. Stealing the car is still wrong, but the thief would not have had the opportunity had the occasion not been there. He may not have even considered stealing a car if it had not been there in the first place. He would have still sinned if he had the prior intention already made of setting out to steal a car. But that is not always the case.

Guess then you’re not a fan of the tv show “Bait Car”?

I say, leave the unlocked car with the keys inside in a sketchy neighborhood & wait til the thieves come along.Then throw their sorry behinds in jail.And make it an unpleasant experience they won’t want to repeat.
Totally different scenario, though for immodest dress.As others have stated,nobody ever ,ever “asks” to be raped.Period.And it’s creepy to even hear suggestions alluding to the contrary.
However, speaking as a mom of boys as well as girls, there are older women who use immodest dress as part of seduction. Boys can be targeted, too. One of my brothers had an older woman hitting on him when he was a teenager. You have to be careful raising boys, too.

 

[Sister_Angel]

Two negatives only make a possitive in multiplication. Even if she was naked in a nudist camp and was raped there, her nakedness does not justifly the rapist. Jesus taught that if one even looks at a lady lustfully, he has commited sexual sin with her. Rape is a sin of violence and the rapist would do it reguardless how she was dressed. Job made a contract with his eyes not to look on a woman lustfully. I seriously doubt if her “sin” caused his “sin”. Sin comes from the sin nature, not from externals.

I agree with you on this because you think of a child or baby how can they hide their nakedness when their parent is changing them and they can only trust in them but some people take advantage of their nakedness and i say it is in the minds of man to be the way they are or the way they are not. you have free will you should know especially if you are a church goer that it is sinful but for those who are not it is the same week minds or hate crimes on woman and children and even men, male and female get hurt by these sex craved animals. The thing is one could be a member of your own family who was brought up to sustain and have common sense on these matters but they choose to do this, especially on alcohol and drugs, beware Californian wants to legalize pot so look out for your wives and children if they do, no one will be safe. The SIN belongs to the Sinner no matter who inticed them. I do not like half dressed woman and girls i get imbarrased for them and myself, but no one deserves t be raped period it is a crime of control.

 

[spunjalebi]

What happens when someone’s definition of “revealing clothing” differs? For instance, what if a woman is wearing nonfitted, modest clothing but attracts male attention because she has wide hips or a large bust? I’ve heard men say about other women “well her boobs shouldn’t be so big, or I wouldn’t look,” or “well if her butt wasn’t so big…” etc., etc.

Revealing clothes could be considered wearing a knee-length skirt, wearing short sleeves, or wearing a top that doesn’t cover the collar bones. Who is right and who is wrong?

 

[centurionguard]

I agree. For instance. If a woman goes to a bar with lotsa sleazy men there, and dresses in a very lustful fashion, with alcohol too, she is creating a dangerous environment for herself because she is playing the role as a tempter, and a harlot. Hence it is a synergistic issue because of the goading involved. Alcohol is another great factor too. Since alcohol is involved in over 50% of all rape cases.

I will agree with you here only to a point. Not because I’m taking sides on behalf of a woman who purposely sets out to dress sleazy and provocative. But because most importantly it should be realized that

Men Too

who frequent drinking establishments particularly on Friday nights and weekends are looking out for woman who either dressed sleazy or loose with themselves.

Lets get more to the brass tax here…just where do you think the brains of a man is thinking drinking alcohol at a bar when he fixes his eyes indiscretionantly on most woman walking into a bar to drink. One hell of a lot of lust in the heart gets thrown around in any bar or dance club. Lets put the guilt blame equally where it belongs on both weak sexes.

Does one always have to say in a one sided manner that in today’s world that the woman always has to be the (“Tempter of Lust”) Maybe some men out their should choke and rehash that for a long while before always putting the bias blame on women.

Lust is Lust whether its the Tempter or the Receiver. Who has the greater strength to walk away from such sinful thoughts?

If Rape is to stop in this confounded world it is courageous MEN in great vast numbers who need to step up to the plate and remedy the problem. Because in reality its only MEN in society that can put the final stop to Rape. 97% of Rapist are Men.
Before judging the sleazy dressed woman with the obvious splinter in her eye, let us men who are quick to judge take a hard look at the log in our eyes.

Peace
Chris

 

[PetersKeys]

I will agree with you here only to a point. Not because I’m taking sides on behalf of a woman who purposely sets out to dress sleazy and provocative. But because most importantly it should be realized that who frequent drinking establishments particularly on Friday nights and weekends are looking out for woman who either dressed sleazy or loose with themselves.

Lets get more to the brass tax here…just where do you think the brains of a man is thinking drinking alcohol at a bar when he fixes his eyes indiscretionantly on most woman walking into a bar to drink. One hell of a lot of lust in the heart gets thrown around in any bar or dance club. Lets put the guilt blame equally where it belongs on both weak sexes.

Does one always have to say in a one sided manner that in today’s world that the woman always has to be the (“Tempter of Lust”) Maybe some men out their should choke and rehash that for a long while before always putting the bias blame on women.

Lust is Lust whether its the Tempter or the Receiver. Who has the greater strength to walk away from such sinful thoughts?

If Rape is to stop in this confounded world it is courageous MEN in great vast numbers who need to step up to the plate and remedy the problem. Because in reality its only MEN in society that can put the final stop to Rape. 97% of Rapist are Men.
Before judging the sleazy dressed woman with the obvious splinter in her eye, let us men who are quick to judge take a hard look at the log in our eyes.

Peace
Chris

Well women tend to have more power behind temptation because they know men are more visual. Eve tempted Adam to take part of the fruit. There is a reason why Satan went for Eve and not for Adam. Satan knew Eve was the weaker sex and was more easily tempted and to tempt others. This is why Adam was put in authority over her.

I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.For Adam was formed first, then Eve.And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. - 1 Timothy 2:12

And Adam was not deceived - This is the second reason why the woman should occupy a subordinate rank in all things. It is, that in the most important situation in which she was ever placed she had shown that she was not qualified to take the lead. She had evinced a readiness to yield to temptation; a feebleness of resistance; a pliancy of character, which showed that she was not adapted to the situation of headship, and which made it proper that she should ever afterward occupy a subordinate situation. It is not meant here that Adam did not sin, nor even that he was not deceived by the tempter, but that the woman opposed a feebler resistance to the temptation than he would have done, and that the temptation as actually applied to her would have been ineffectual on him. To tempt and seduce him to fall, there were needed all the soft persuasions, the entreaties, and example of his wife.

Satan understood this, and approached man not with the specious argument of the serpent, but through the allurements of his wife. It is undoubtedly implied here that man in general has a power of resisting certain kinds of temptation superior to that possessed by woman, and hence that the headship properly belongs to him. This is, undoubtedly, the general truth, though there may be many exceptions, and many noble cases to the honor of the female sex, in which they evince a power of resistance to temptation superior to man. In many traits of character, and among them those which are most lovely, woman is superior to man; yet it is undoubtedly true that, as a general thing, temptation will make a stronger impression on her than on him. When it is said that “Adam was not deceived,” it is not meant that when he partook actually of the fruit he was under no deception, but that he was not deceived by the serpent; he was not first deceived, or first in the transgression. The woman should remember that sin began with her, and she should therefore be willing to occupy an humble and subordinate situation.

But the woman being deceived - She was made to suppose that the fruit would not injure her, but would make her wise, and that God would not fulfil his threatening of death. Sin, from the beginning, has been a process of delusion. Every man or woman who violates the law of God is deceived as to the happiness which is expected from the violation, and as to the consequences which will follow it.

hence all the way back to the apple the issues of temptation has always been a mystery with regards to the female sex. And hence, when we see it with the temptation of lust, and lustful clothing, it becomes an issue since temptation has always been a magnetic trait from the woman. This is why modesty is so important in the bible. Because it nullifies occasions of sin and stumbling blocks.

*I find more bitter than death the woman who is a snare, whose heart is a trap and whose hands are chains. The man who pleases God will escape her, but the sinner she will ensnare. - Ecclesiastes 7:26

For the lips of an immoral woman are as sweet as honey, and her mouth is smoother than oil. But in the end she is as bitter as poison, as dangerous as a double-edged sword. - Proverbs 5:4

“The whoredom of a woman may be known in her haughty looks and eyelids. If thy daughter be shameless, keep her in straitly, lest she abuse herself through overmuch liberty.” (Eccles. 26:9-10)*

 

[centurionguard]

Peter Keys wrote:

Well women tend to have more power behind temptation because they know men are more visual.

True; man seemingly is more visual in his sensual senses than women are. Perhaps this is an inborn weakness of man that every man needs to discipline and mortify within himself… And really; just how much are men more visual than women? Marginally?

Peter Keys wrote:

There is a reason why Satan went for Eve and not for Adam. Satan knew Eve was the weaker sex and was more easily tempted and to tempt others. This is why Adam was put in authority over her.

With all due respect I find this kind of rational quite assuming, since God created both Man and Woman equal in every respect in speaking about the human soul.
Do you not think that Satan the great father of lies deceit and deception could have just as easily on a whim have tempted Adam to eat from the forbidden Tree of Knowledge instead of Eve? No one could prove that Satan didn’t posses the power to fool Adam anymore than Eve.

God permitted Satan to tempt Eve. This does not make her or all women down through the ages any weaker than man himself.

Much of the biblical usage you have made reference to can so easily be taken out of context to make a self-righteous argument that a woman is much to blame for being raped. I don’t buy one iota of this kind bias sling-shot.

The First Sin of both Adam and Eve was disobedience against God. The second Sin resulting from that disobedience was Lust.

And God said; Who told thee that thou was naked!

Genesis 3: 1-11

**1 Now, the snake was the most subtle of all the wild animals that God had made. It asked the woman, ‘Did God really say you were not to eat from any of the trees in the garden?’
2 The woman answered the snake, 'We may eat the fruit of the trees in the garden.
3 But of the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden God said, “You must not eat it, nor touch it, under pain of death.” ’
4 Then the snake said to the woman, ‘No! You will not die!
5 God knows in fact that the day you eat it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods, knowing good from evil.’
6 The woman saw that the tree was good to eat and pleasing to the eye, and that it was enticing for the wisdom that it could give. So she took some of its fruit and ate it. She also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate it.
7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened and they realised that they were naked. So they sewed fig-leaves together to make themselves loin-cloths.
8 The man and his wife heard the sound of God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from God among the trees of the garden.
9 But God called to the man. ‘Where are you?’ he asked.
10 ‘I heard the sound of you in the garden,’ he replied. ‘I was afraid because I was naked, so I hid.’
11 ‘Who told you that you were naked?’ he asked. ‘Have you been eating from the tree I forbade you to eat?’ **

Disobedience against God and Lust has been ruin of innumerable human souls of both sexes even in our present day. To blame such sins or to say woman is the weaker sex or to judge with bias to say that (“any”) woman is to blame and deserves her own rape holds no validity whatsoever. The Sin of acting on the temptation sin is born equally on Adam and Eve.

Peace
Chris

 

[Sister_Angel]

I will agree with you here only to a point. Not because I’m taking sides on behalf of a woman who purposely sets out to dress sleazy and provocative. But because most importantly it should be realized that who frequent drinking establishments particularly on Friday nights and weekends are looking out for woman who either dressed sleazy or loose with themselves.

Lets get more to the brass tax here…just where do you think the brains of a man is thinking drinking alcohol at a bar when he fixes his eyes indiscretionantly on most woman walking into a bar to drink. One hell of a lot of lust in the heart gets thrown around in any bar or dance club. Lets put the guilt blame equally where it belongs on both weak sexes.

Does one always have to say in a one sided manner that in today’s world that the woman always has to be the (“Tempter of Lust”) Maybe some men out their should choke and rehash that for a long while before always putting the bias blame on women.

Lust is Lust whether its the Tempter or the Receiver. Who has the greater strength to walk away from such sinful thoughts?

If Rape is to stop in this confounded world it is courageous MEN in great vast numbers who need to step up to the plate and remedy the problem. Because in reality its only MEN in society that can put the final stop to Rape. 97% of Rapist are Men.
Before judging the sleazy dressed woman with the obvious splinter in her eye, let us men who are quick to judge take a hard look at the log in our eyes.

Peace
Chris

Your mother raised you right, and i agree with you, i admire a man who can turn the other cheek and say what In the world would i want to be caught dead with her for??In those places most of them are looking for each other any ways and most of the rapes are out side the bars and even on the way home from school etc. The problem with woman who dress where you can see right up their skirts can tempt a man but most men don’t want this girl they run right out the door to find a sober, good ,descent girl who is minding their business with a good head on their shoulders and a good future ahead of them and they are the ones who get it because of the ones who dress that way. Some of them go home and get after their neighbors kids or their own because of the thoughts and arousal from those who dress out of control. There is a limit but the good suffer for the bad most of the time. pray they would preach more about this to children and youths of all ages so they can understand that they could be the ones responsible for another girls fate and not even know it they should be aware of this more and may be their conscious will lead them the right way.