Question for Adventists.....

[pipper]

Brother, how can you say you respect us when your church calls our church “babylon” and our Holy Father “the Anti- Christ”?

I submit that is no respect.

I think that your church follows Ellen at least as much as, and maybe more than the shortend bible that you guys use.

I also submit that if it weren’t for the very literalistic sensationalised interpretation(that no-one else shares) of Revelation and Daniel your church could not exist.

I can think of no other church that hates the Catholic church, as much as yours.

I have read the book by Ellen named “the great controversy” and all of it’s terrible mistatements about history, I have frequented a forum about SDAs in another place and I am well aware of it’s teachings about being the Only Remnant church, so I know of what I speak.

 

[fishisgood]

Well fishisgood, a stone in the water causes ripples which some people say go forever…

Boy you are so good at the one or two line question…this one is not so hard to answer though, in fact Ihave already answered it, did you take time to read my ‘epistles’? Or did you just skim over them not really taking it in?? I could do one liners to about the Roman Catholic Church, but I expect you would not bother answering, ha, not as silly as me exhausting myself on your behalf…??

False prophets? plenty of them about I grant you, but in this case no, just because we are slightly different to the norm, daring to go against the tide against the crowd, and prefer to obey our Saviour Jesus Christ. The godly in Christ will always suffer persecution I believe is in the Bible, how true, how true.

So, I shall not exhaust myself anymore, I believe I have answered all of you questions I just ask you to read them again. Old expression, ‘casting pearls before swine’, not calling you a swine by the way, just using the saying.

So God bless and go to Mass and confess your sin in making me exhaust myself answering you questions…joking of course, Bye for now. Michael.

I read through your posts… I apologize for the one line questioning, however, i am astounded by your religion and its devotion to anti Catholicism… after carefully reading through your posts all I see is typical protestant bible alone stuff but then there is the Ellen White total whiff of a prophecy and you explain it by saying it took place in heaven not on earth… that is not Biblical so I dont see how you are “Bible alone” I have yet to hear any adventest show how this supports their Bible alone claim and how they are not the least bit worried about following a false profit…

 

[Brother2]

Wow Wow, Well Done Fellars and maybe Lassies in there somewhere, all hiding behind nicknames. But yeah, go to the Top of the Class for thought out responses, giving up on the ‘one liners’! That guy who had researched Adventism…10 out of 10 brother!!

If you read my first ‘blog’ you would have seen that in time we might have to ‘agree to disagree’ yeah?? Well I think we are nearly at that point…

As regards 'hating the Roman Catholic Church…some Adventists may come over like that and I apologise on their behalf, maybe AGE has given me more compassion, especially being on the receiving end of ‘persecution’ myself.
So sorry guys and gals if the tone of our preaching tends to ‘hate’ the Roman Catholic Church, but hey, hate is Wrong brothers and DO NOT hate any of you, I dont personally hate the Catholic Church either, ha especially with all the new Laws out there now eh??

NO, seriously, no, most Adventist are Christians and yes, we have to Protest against the Roman Catholic Church for reasons one of you spelled out, which I have stepped back from as my Hosts on this Website are RC and I do not intend offending. We believe Lord Jesus of Revelation has given us a message to preach, he is coming soon(surely the state of the world tells that) and we want as many people as possible to believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ and be ready to meet Him.

Ellen White?? I have kind of explained that too. She was Methodist by the way. Very ill after another school girl threw a stone at her and injured her badly. Missed a lot of her schooling and never finished her education. Ellen started having visions around 16 years old. Another educated man had been chosen by God first and given a big vision, but he refused to do the work. Then he attended a meeting where Ellen was quietly explaining her first vision and the guy was shocked to the core because Ellen was explaining his vision!!
Even with little education Ellen wrote many books, God gave here the ability which she did not have naturally.

God chose the weakest of the weak to do His task.

Now I will never convince you guys, but sufficient to say, we believe in the Gift of Prophecy right? Ellen was given that Gift. Remember, she is never taken ABOVE the Bible, lesser light leading to the Greater Light.

Yeah, the Bible alone. Obviously we read books humans have wrote too, wise men like your Priesthood etc., its just that we don’t take their word for it, Scripture First. And we don’t only read Adventist books, we have open communion which anyone can take part, and the same with books, we can read any Commentators books including Catholic if we so desire.

So, believe or not guys, I love you with Christian love. I am just explaining what I believe and I do RESPECT you too, even with what i believe. Bible says, ‘love the sinner hate the sin’!!! So every individual within the Catholic Church we love and respect, even the pope…it is just the part that the Organization plays in history and in the final events of Planet earth, that we feel we have to Preach.

Remember, most Protestant believed that till around 50 years ago…now we are not the only ones, but most Protestant Churches have altered their teaching.

OK enough for now. Bye. Michael.

 

[Brother2]

OH Yes the shortened Bible…oh dear…we use many versions of the Bible, though the New King James I think is one of best…but the other Apochraphal books that the Roman Church use I think are regarded as not equal with the rest of Scripture…some not inspired and others only of value at the time their book was written. And of course used because they agree with you beliefs, pergatory etc. but they tend to Contradict the rest of the Bible so that is why Protestants leave them out.

We can read those books too if we choose but we don’t regard them of equal weight or not really God’s Word.

So that’s about it, ha just no more one liners ok?? Thanks Michael.

 

[fishisgood]

OH Yes the shortened Bible…oh dear…we use many versions of the Bible, though the New King James I think is one of best…but the other Apochraphal books that the Roman Church use I think are regarded as not equal with the rest of Scripture…some not inspired and others only of value at the time their book was written. And of course used because they agree with you beliefs, pergatory etc. but they tend to Contradict the rest of the Bible so that is why Protestants leave them out.

We can read those books too if we choose but we don’t regard them of equal weight or not really God’s Word.

So that’s about it, ha just no more one liners ok?? Thanks Michael.

This would easily turn into a typical protestant vs Catholic debate which is covered adnausium on many other threads… The Catholic Church reads the old Testament that Christ read. We can go down the road where I ask you on what authority those books were removed and then after you explain the authority I will lead you to see that you infact take authority from somthing other than the bible… it is impossible not to. The term Roman Church is derogatory by the way… the Catholic Church encompases many rites outside of the RCC but in line with the Holy Father. By the way lesser light to big light sounds allot like the communion of saints. In other words we as Catholics can see that you accuse us of adding to Gods word (although we have sacred tradition going back to the Apostles) yet you add what you will all the time. I will go to Mass thank you and participate in that which is truely revealed in Revelation… bye for now

 

[Brother2]

A BIG PS Guys. Ellen White was not around in 1844 the Prophecy thing was discovered by pure Bible Study…first by William Miller and then by hundreds of others who came on board as a result of his preaching and most of these people were already Christian who attended different Churches…these Millerites spent days and weeks in pure Bible study and prayer to check the Prophecy.

OK Guys we into Deep Bible here…Daniel ch. 8 and 9. They used other parts of the Bible too but this is the Nitty Gritty…a big Time Prophecy…now I don’t expect you all to swallow this hook line and sinker (fishisgood!) just to explain the reasoning ok??

Daniel 8:14 is the ‘ground zero’ ok ‘For two thousand three hundred days then the sanctuary shall be cleansed’. You may not know this but it is generally accepted by most Bible students in many other Churches too that a ‘day’ in prophecy represents a ‘year’ ok? so we are talking about 2300 years. Now the crux of the matter is where does it start…???

Daniel 9:25. ‘Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem’ …and goes on to tell when Lord Jesus would be born…apparently it Works, this prophecy tells exactly when Lord Jesus was to be born, so the Rabbi’s and Pharisees were expecting something when Jesus was born, they knew this Prophecy|!!!

Anyway, starting date, 457BC…ha, now this was when the Jews had been in captivity for 70 years and Daniel was keen to know when this would be up and they be restored to Jerusalem,so all this is tied in…there were a ‘few false starts’ decrees were issued for a few years before 457BC but the one that was actually enforced was in that year.

So, 2300 years leads to 1844 apparently October…ha! as I say it takes much longer to explain this Prophecy as you can imagine?? But above are the basic building blocks…

So something there to get you teeth into guys…??? No way do I expect you to come back and say ‘Wow its true where can I sign up…’ Ha Ha…but it is just to give you ‘a Heads up’ to where the Millerites were coming from and later the Adventists.

OK. History lesson over for today!! Maranatha!! Michael.

NB. Just for fun…1798 comes in too as the beginning of the ‘end times’ when the Pope was taken prisoner…a lesson for another day…

 

[Brother2]

This would easily turn into a typical protestant vs Catholic debate which is covered adnausium on many other threads… The Catholic Church reads the old Testament that Christ read. We can go down the road where I ask you on what authority those books were removed and then after you explain the authority I will lead you to see that you infact take authority from somthing other than the bible… it is impossible not to. The term Roman Church is derogatory by the way… the Catholic Church encompases many rites outside of the RCC but in line with the Holy Father. By the way lesser light to big light sounds allot like the communion of saints. In other words we as Catholics can see that you accuse us of adding to Gods word (although we have sacred tradition going back to the Apostles) yet you add what you will all the time. I will go to Mass thank you and participate in that which is truely revealed in Revelation… bye for now

OK. Sorry for being derogatory, I really was not aware of that…I would usually use the full title Roman Catholic Church but it was for sake of brevity. Ha…here is where we ‘Agree to Disagree’ I think my friend…though as for ‘lesser light’…I can agree with you I suppose, we have Ellen White and you have the Saints…OK I can live with that…

 

[Cluny]

Now, what the Cleansing of the Sanctuary really was, at least according to us Adventists, is the Cleansing of the Sanctuary in Heaven…

How can anything in Heaven be dirty, since nothing defiled can enter it?

In all fairness to SDA, the emphasis on the Saturday Sabbath is the LEAST of their problems.

But if one wishes to become Orthodox, that person must be received by canonical Orthodox Baptism (as with Mormons, JWs, and the unbaptized), because their Christology is defective.

 

[Brother2]

How can anything in Heaven be dirty, since nothing defiled can enter it?

In all fairness to SDA, the emphasis on the Saturday Sabbath is the LEAST of their problems.

But if one wishes to become Orthodox, that person must be received by canonical Orthodox Baptism (as with Mormons, JWs, and the unbaptized), because their Christology is defective.

Well ‘Cluny’ what does that mean exactly? That the Roman Catholic Church is the One True Church?? Aw dear not a good claim to make actually, the Great Reformation proved that one um an unfortunate Statement…

I have been baptized at 15 years old, as you would be aware we like to wait until we are of age and we know what we are doing.

Infant baptism is not Biblical and I don’t think you can get out of that one as there is no mention of infant baptism in the Bible. Are we born sinners brother? Born with a sinful nature yes, but not sinners until we actually commit sin…? Original sin, the baby is going to hell unless they get baptized…oh dear, too harsh that, I cannot get my head around that, my idea of God and Lord Jesus Christ is that it does not fit with His Character.

Well, enough said there. Michael. Oh there’s more…

Regarding the need of Cleansing in Heaven, I did go into that already. It goes back to the Jewish Sanctuary and the Day of Atonement where the confessed sins of the people had to be taken out of the Sanctuary. God used Jewish religious services as parables, object lessons, shadows of what was to come at the end of the world.

Just as the sacrificing of animals pointed forward to the death of the ‘Lamb of God, slain from the foundation of the world’. See, God does not change, yet he used different means of communicating with the human race, nearly everything in the Bible is for our benefit to lead us Home back to our Father in Heaven…

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Hi fellow members.
Now, what the Cleansing of the Sanctuary really was, at least according to us Adventists, is the Cleansing of the Sanctuary in Heaven…
The Jewish Sanctuary was built after ‘a Pattern’ which God gave them. A Pattern of the Sanctuary which already existed, in some form, in Heaven. So it was the Heavenly Sanctuary which was to be cleansed…why would anything in Heaven need cleansed???

To put bluntly, the Cleansing of the Sanctuary is God’s Judgment. When the Lord Jesus Christ returns as King at his Second Coming, His Reward is with Him…He ALREADY KNOWS who is going home with Him and who is not…because the Judgment has already taken place…then the next ‘Judgment’ will be the Saved, Redeemed of Planet Earth, AUDITING the Books of Heaven…why is (excuse me) this Pope in heaven? Why is that murderer in Heaven? Why is that Adventist in Heaven? Because they have been Redeemed through the Blood of the Lamb!!

Gabriel of 12;
Brother 2, Iam confused about your theology of a heavenly sanctuary? First you claim a Jewish sanctuary in heaven in need of cleansing, your prophet confused the second coming with a Jewish sanctuary heavenly cleansing? Can God really get that confused when using a prophet?

Then you state a “new teaching” not what your prophet founder incorrectly foretold or confused his prophecy with the second coming with Jewish heavenly sanctuary cleansing; with a new cleansing of the sanctuary, which today SDA’s changed to be "God’s Judgment will be a cleansing of the sanctuary with Jesus second coming?

Can you clear this up from what you stated is your belief of a cleansing and the second coming?

What confuses me, is that scripture teaches “nothing unclean” ever enters into heaven in the presence of God. Did not Jesus see “satan fall like lightning” when he walked the earth? Did not Jesus go away to prepare a place for us there, where there are many mansions. Heaven and earth will pass away but never God’s Word. So how does your founder over ride God’s Word and promises?

 

[fishisgood]

Well ‘Cluny’ what does that mean exactly? That the Roman Catholic Church is the One True Church?? Aw dear not a good claim to make actually, the Great Reformation proved that one um an unfortunate Statement…

I have been baptized at 15 years old, as you would be aware we like to wait until we are of age and we know what we are doing.

Infant baptism is not Biblical and I don’t think you can get out of that one as there is no mention of infant baptism in the Bible. Are we born sinners brother? Born with a sinful nature yes, but not sinners until we actually commit sin…? Original sin, the baby is going to hell unless they get baptized…oh dear, too harsh that, I cannot get my head around that, my idea of God and Lord Jesus Christ is that it does not fit with His Character.

Well, enough said there. Michael. Oh there’s more…

Regarding the need of Cleansing in Heaven, I did go into that already. It goes back to the Jewish Sanctuary and the Day of Atonement where the confessed sins of the people had to be taken out of the Sanctuary. God used Jewish religious services as parables, object lessons, shadows of what was to come at the end of the world.

Just as the sacrificing of animals pointed forward to the death of the ‘Lamb of God, slain from the foundation of the world’. See, God does not change, yet he used different means of communicating with the human race, nearly everything in the Bible is for our benefit to lead us Home back to our Father in Heaven…

Couple of things… he said Orthodox not Catholic although the statement still applies. The problem is that we (Catholics) and eastern Orthodox for that matter dont claim to be bible only… we have sacred tradition handed down from the apostles as well. So saying its not in the Bible (baby baptisms ect) carries no weight as we do not argue from a Sola Scriptura point of view. By saying the reformation proves the Catholic church is not the one true church just because it happened proves nothing either. Did anyone direct you that that is how you are to interprate the “cleaning of the sanctuary”… that would mean you are not free to interperate scripture on your own… who has this authority in your church???

 

[Brother2]

Couple of things… he said Orthodox not Catholic although the statement still applies. The problem is that we (Catholics) and eastern Orthodox for that matter dont claim to be bible only… we have sacred tradition handed down from the apostles as well. So saying its not in the Bible (baby baptisms ect) carries no weight as we do not argue from a Sola Scriptura point of view. By saying the reformation proves the Catholic church is not the one true church just because it happened proves nothing either. Did anyone direct you that that is how you are to interprate the “cleaning of the sanctuary”… that would mean you are not free to interperate scripture on your own… who has this authority in your church???

OK. I can say Fair Enough to a lot of that comment. As regards interpretation you are just about right regarding my church, but we can have our own opinion on some things and so can Roman Catholics as I read in the Forum. I have a few interpretations of my own that differ slightly to the main Church, but we are allowed that, Protestants should be Christian Commandos able to go it alone if need be…

Ha that’s a good one eh…ha ha… laugh at myself…

I respect this Sacred Tradition thing of yours but my problem with that is, what happens when it contradicts Scripture?? You see one of the reasons for the Reformation was that Sacred Tradition was taken over and above the Bible. With the greatest of respect the Roman Catholic Church was in a terrible state when the Reformation occurred…as a result of the Reformation I have to say the Roman Catholic Church has really cleaned up its act…and is much better than it was in the Middle Ages…

I respect the Roman Catholic Church for many of its doctrines, Family Life, Homosexuality, to a great extent Abortion, Missionary work across the world…in fact I believe that Roman Catholic Missionaries work with the Adventist Development and Relief Agency in some places, we would be the largest Protestant Aid Agency.

So I have to say it is so interesting being a ‘Trial Member’ of this Forum. Michael.

 

[pipper]

Brother2, do not be concerned about being a trial member.

The fact is that everyone here starts of as a trial member, everyone, myself included.

I was a trial member until I reached 50 posts, it has nothing to do with you personally.

Now going back to the post where you said you had in hacked the Vatican website, that is just not the truth, anyone with a computer can access that site. AND, the part about about history did not come from the Vat site, it came from Ms. White’s book the “Great Cantroversy”, you really gave yourself away when you started talking about the Waldensians, straight from TGC.

How can we have a conversation with you, when you are not honest about your sources?

Dishonesty is a huge thing with SDAs, that is why when you have your “prophecy seminars”, theyn are usually in rented hotel rooms with no mention that they are sponsered by the SDA organisation. Most copies of Ms. White’s book have no information about the SDAs and indeed many do not even have Ellen White listed as author.

About your dig about nicknames, I will give you the benefit of the doubt but most web sites use nicknames it is just a part of the territory.

But I will say: My RN is Alban, what’s your’s.

 

[MarysRoses]

Hi FISH!

I was a Seventh-day Adventist for many years.

I converted to Catholicism when I was in graduate school after having been a theology student at an Adventist College.

Here’s some links with testimonies and articles written by former Adventists who are now Catholic.

sda2rc.blogspot.com
www.diesdomini.com
www.sda2rc.com

You are also welcome to msg me if you have a particular question you don’t want to post.

There are also several former Adventists who are now Catholic posting on CAF.

You might look through old threads for some of their posts.

MarysRoses

 

[Brother2]

Brother2, do not be concerned about being a trial member.

The fact is that everyone here starts of as a trial member, everyone, myself included.

I was a trial member until I reached 50 posts, it has nothing to do with you personally.

Now going back to the post where you said you had in hacked the Vatican website, that is just not the truth, anyone with a computer can access that site. AND, the part about about history did not come from the Vat site, it came from Ms. White’s book the “Great Cantroversy”, you really gave yourself away when you started talking about the Waldensians, straight from TGC.

How can we have a conversation with you, when you are not honest about your sources?

Dishonesty is a huge thing with SDAs, that is why when you have your “prophecy seminars”, theyn are usually in rented hotel rooms with no mention that they are sponsered by the SDA organisation. Most copies of Ms. White’s book have no information about the SDAs and indeed many do not even have Ellen White listed as author.

About your dig about nicknames, I will give you the benefit of the doubt but most web sites use nicknames it is just a part of the territory.

But I will say: My RN is Alban, what’s your’s.

Hi Alban good to read you. Thanks for the first bit, 50 points, 50 contributions? ok very good. Though I know there are good Senior Roman Catholics who oversee the Website and I would not want to annoy them too much…

Dishonesty?? Ha. Good point about the Rented Rooms though, we argue about that amongst ourselves too, many, including myself want to be Open and Up Front about who we are, Seventh-day Adventist Christians and Proud of it…ha. Where I live we do now hold events in our Church, my view has prevailed!!! Although some times the particular area does not have a big Church or Hall and we have to hire a hall. But I take your point I agree with you actually!!!

Now regarding the Waldensians, I have read about that in the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia and I have been there, I walked the streets of the Waldensies in Northern Italy and been in their Churches, stood at the Monument of their Founder.
So I do have a fair idea.

Also there is no argument about the Ethiopian Church, they still observe Saturday and Sunday.

‘Hacking’ into the Vatican was actually intended as a Joke, sorry about that, an attempt at levity, of course, I could not hack into a paper bag…!!! Ha Ha.

Ellen White Books always have her name on them, I have a pile of them and every one has her name as the Author. Maybe we just agree to disagree on her, though, we are the Fastest growing Protestant in the World, baptizing over 2000 a day, so we must be doing something Right Huh??

Someone said that people like us hang on and hang on hoping we will be proved right??
Ha. Come back to me when the Great Controversy comes true…though actually most of is genuine History of the Christian Church…just because The Roman Catholic Church slaughtered millions of people during their history, makes you put it out of you mind and dont want to know…sorry to be so blunt, but its all there in secular History Books so don’t blame it all on The Great Controversy. Just mention the Crusades and Moslem’s go mad, much of the Arab terrorism harks back to the Crusades, 9/11 and all, much of it is what the Roman Catholic Crusades did to Moslems…George Bush said the word Crusade after 9/11 and it was a red rag to bull…

As I keep saying I respect all Roman Catholics and the Church has really cleaned up its act since the Reformation so that it appears nearly…say no more…

So thanks for your comments. Michael.

 

[Brother2]

Hi FISH!

I was a Seventh-day Adventist for many years.

I converted to Catholicism when I was in graduate school after having been a theology student at an Adventist College.

Here’s some links with testimonies and articles written by former Adventists who are now Catholic.

sda2rc.blogspot.com
www.diesdomini.com
www.sda2rc.com

You are also welcome to msg me if you have a particular question you don’t want to post.

There are also several former Adventists who are now Catholic posting on CAF.

You might look through old threads for some of their posts.

MarysRoses

Hello MarysRoses. Are you a young lady, I will have to be extra kind to you then. We are not a cult, people move in and out of our Church as and when they will, we don’t hold them against their will.

What you will find though is that Former Members of any Church or Organization are usually the most bitter and write much ‘poison’ against their former place. As I said earlier, we are the fastest growing Protestant Church in the world so we are bound to lose some through the ‘back door’ huh??

So sorry you decided to leave MarysRoses, you will be welcome back anytime if you choose.

God bless and keep searching. Michael.

 

[Brother2]

Brother2;5191816:

Hi fellow members.
Now, what the Cleansing of the Sanctuary really was, at least according to us Adventists, is the Cleansing of the Sanctuary in Heaven…
The Jewish Sanctuary was built after ‘a Pattern’ which God gave them. A Pattern of the Sanctuary which already existed, in some form, in Heaven. So it was the Heavenly Sanctuary which was to be cleansed…why would anything in Heaven need cleansed???

To put bluntly, the Cleansing of the Sanctuary is God’s Judgment. When the Lord Jesus Christ returns as King at his Second Coming, His Reward is with Him…He ALREADY KNOWS who is going home with Him and who is not…because the Judgment has already taken place…then the next ‘Judgment’ will be the Saved, Redeemed of Planet Earth, AUDITING the Books of Heaven…why is (excuse me) this Pope in heaven? Why is that murderer in Heaven? Why is that Adventist in Heaven? Because they have been Redeemed through the Blood of the Lamb

Gabriel of 12;
Brother 2, Iam confused about your theology of a heavenly sanctuary? First you claim a Jewish sanctuary in heaven in need of cleansing, your prophet confused the second coming with a Jewish sanctuary heavenly cleansing? Can God really get that confused when using a prophet?

Then you state a “new teaching” not what your prophet founder incorrectly foretold or confused his prophecy with the second coming with Jewish heavenly sanctuary cleansing; with a new cleansing of the sanctuary, which today SDA’s changed to be "God’s Judgment will be a cleansing of the sanctuary with Jesus second coming?

Can you clear this up from what you stated is your belief of a cleansing and the second coming?

What confuses me, is that scripture teaches “nothing unclean” ever enters into heaven in the presence of God. Did not Jesus see “satan fall like lightning” when he walked the earth? Did not Jesus go away to prepare a place for us there, where there are many mansions. Heaven and earth will pass away but never God’s Word. So how does your founder over ride God’s Word and promises?

Hello Gabriel of 12 nice to meet you. Start with you last Paragraph first, you are mostly right in this paragraph, I agree. Would just say that satan fell from heaven when he was forced out, ‘there was war in heaven and Michael and His angels fought against Lucifer and his angels and he was cast out of heaven’.

Ha, so here we have War in Heaven?? how could there be war in heaven?? We don’t know what kind of ‘war’ it was, a mental war or fisticuffs?? we dont know.

So if there was ‘war’ in Heaven, could there also be a need of ‘cleansing’?? Just like the ‘war’ we don’t know for sure what kind of cleansing…sins being confessed and going in to the Sanctuary in Heaven is not physical is it? Probably more ‘symbolic’, a Parable or object lesson to explain in human terms what is happening.

Now, it was not a Jewish sanctuary in heaven…those are your words…what I said was the earthly sanctuary was a ‘copy’ of of the Sanctuary in Heaven. This is all new to you so you cannot be expected to understand it… but to go back to what I said in a previous ‘blog’, God runs Open Government, he explains everything to human beings in terms that we can understand…things in Heaven could well be beyond our understanding…so God explains them in human terms that we can understand…

The Jewish services and animal sacrifices were also along those lines, God’s way of explaining to humans what he is doing to Save humans…parables, object lessons to remind the Jews of God’s plan of Salvation, and also to teach Gentiles the message Jews were supposed to preach…just like Christians preach the Gospel to the unsaved??

The Jews were God’s Church on earth during Old Testament times, the ‘Christians’ if you like…Jews were to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles and the sanctuary services and animal sacrifices were ways of teaching God’s Plan to save the world, for all who believe…

Its not a case of saved by Grace now, and works in the old Testament, it was always saved by Grace!!! Saved by the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, we are all saved the same way, through belief in Lord Jesus Christ and what He has done on our behalf.

Hope that helps a little. Michael.

 

[SDA2RC]

Brother,
It is good to see you posting on the forums… I look forward to reading more of your posts. I have to disagree with you, regarding some of your statements however.

What I would say though is that the Adventist Church is not built on any Prophecy.

Ellen G. White in the book Great Controversy said on page 408:
“The scripture which above all others had been both the foundation and the central pillar of the advent faith was the declaration: “Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” Daniel 8:14. These had been familiar words to all believers in the Lord’s soon coming. By the lips of thousands was this prophecy repeated as the watchword of their faith. All felt that upon the events therein foretold depended their brightest expectations and most cherished hopes. These prophetic days had been shown to terminate in the autumn of 1844.”

This text, DAiel 8:14 is the central text of the Adventist prophetic interpretation and EGW call is the foundation and central pillar of the Advent Faith. This is quite disturbing since she is using almost the same language as scripture in 1 Timothy 3:15:

if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Notice that scripture tell us that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth… but EGW teaches that the SDA interpretation of Daniel 8:14 is the central pillar and foundation of the Adventist faith. Which shall we believe?

In fact the three angels messages is steeped in Adventist prophecy. It is these messages that the Adventist Church feels called to proclaim to the world.

Certainly Prophecy is a big part of our message. But actually, we are built on the Lord Jesus Christ, Creator, Saviour and soon returning King.

How is that? Christ founded a church in the NT… the Adventist Church was not founded until 1863 officially… unofficially the group formed in the 1840’s… how can you be founded on Christ when he had already established a Church nearly 2000 years before? You need to provide some evidence for your claim here.

Just like other Protestant Churches the Adventist Church is built on the Bible and the Bible alone…

In direct contradiction to Scripture unfortunately.

.yes we have our own prophet, even though Ellen White never wanted to be called a prophet, she preferred messenger. She also said that her message was the lesser light leading to the Greater Light of Scripture. As a Christian Church the Bible is always First!

OK… lets explain this a little for those who may not be as familiar with the SDA Church. EGW’s did say that she did not wish to be called a prophet… but not out of humility… in fact she said her work was far greater than that of a prophet. The idea that her books are a lesser light leading to a greater light is sort of like saying we need a flashlight to find the sun. Its a bit of an oxymoron.

Whether or not EGW wanted to be called a prophet or not, this is the status that is afforded to her by the Church. In fact her writings are referred to as the Spirit of Prophecy and the acceptance of the Churches teaching on the Spirit of Prophecy is a required part of the baptismal vows and part of the 28 fundamental beliefs of the Church. With this belief the SDA Church finds its self in a precarious position of at one time claiming to be sola scriptura AND believing that they have other inspired writings. In order to remedy this they have created a 2nd class prophet status… i.e. EGW’s writings are inspired and from God, however, they do not bear the same authority or weight as scripture. The problem with this is that if the writings are from God… then why don’t God’s messages have the same authority as His other messages?

PS. With respect the Seventh-day Adventist Church was actually formed in the 1860’s. The earlier group were the Millerites in 1844.

The church was legally formed in 1863 after putting off forming an formal organization for quite some time. however, the Seventh-Day Adventist founders and beliefs started in the 1840’s, in fact the earliest writings of the EGW to the Adventist Church, still used today, are from the late 1840’s and early 1850’s.

www.sda2rc.com
www.sda2rc.blogspot.com
www.diesdomini.com

 

[Brother2]

Brother,
It is good to see you posting on the forums… I look forward to reading more of your posts. I have to disagree with you, regarding some of your statements however.

Ellen G. White in the book Great Controversy said on page 408:
“The scripture which above all others had been both the foundation and the central pillar of the advent faith was the declaration: “Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” Daniel 8:14. These had been familiar words to all believers in the Lord’s soon coming. By the lips of thousands was this prophecy repeated as the watchword of their faith. All felt that upon the events therein foretold depended their brightest expectations and most cherished hopes. These prophetic days had been shown to terminate in the autumn of 1844.”

This text, DAiel 8:14 is the central text of the Adventist prophetic interpretation and EGW call is the foundation and central pillar of the Advent Faith. This is quite disturbing since she is using almost the same language as scripture in 1 Timothy 3:15:

if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Notice that scripture tell us that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth… but EGW teaches that the SDA interpretation of Daniel 8:14 is the central pillar and foundation of the Adventist faith. Which shall we believe?

In fact the three angels messages is steeped in Adventist prophecy. It is these messages that the Adventist Church feels called to proclaim to the world.

How is that? Christ founded a church in the NT… the Adventist Church was not founded until 1863 officially… unofficially the group formed in the 1840’s… how can you be founded on Christ when he had already established a Church nearly 2000 years before? You need to provide some evidence for your claim here.

In direct contradiction to Scripture unfortunately.

OK… lets explain this a little for those who may not be as familiar with the SDA Church. EGW’s did say that she did not wish to be called a prophet… but not out of humility… in fact she said her work was far greater than that of a prophet. The idea that her books are a lesser light leading to a greater light is sort of like saying we need a flashlight to find the sun. Its a bit of an oxymoron.

Whether or not EGW wanted to be called a prophet or not, this is the status that is afforded to her by the Church. In fact her writings are referred to as the Spirit of Prophecy and the acceptance of the Churches teaching on the Spirit of Prophecy is a required part of the baptismal vows and part of the 28 fundamental beliefs of the Church. With this belief the SDA Church finds its self in a precarious position of at one time claiming to be sola scriptura AND believing that they have other inspired writings. In order to remedy this they have created a 2nd class prophet status… i.e. EGW’s writings are inspired and from God, however, they do not bear the same authority or weight as scripture. The problem with this is that if the writings are from God… then why don’t God’s messages have the same authority as His other messages?

PS. With respect the Seventh-day Adventist Church was actually formed in the 1860’s. The earlier group were the Millerites in 1844.

The church was legally formed in 1863 after putting off forming an formal organization for quite some time. however, the Seventh-Day Adventist founders and beliefs started in the 1840’s, in fact the earliest writings of the EGW to the Adventist Church, still used today, are from the late 1840’s and early 1850’s.

www.sda2rc.com
www.sda2rc.blogspot.com
www.diesdomini.com

Hello brother nice to meet you. I must give you 7 out of 10 for your comments on the Seventh-day Adventist Church, I appreciate the time and effort you have put in to you research!!

Anyway, I don’t think there are ‘many’ religious organizations that are not above criticism…real or imagined…? So I would never claim that Adventists are above criticism. However, what use would a Church be if it was not built on the Lord Jesus Christ? Not very much. He is the sum of all hopes within the Christian Church, without Him any church is dead…so as I said, even though the Adventist Church is big on Prophecy and may even be a Pillar of our beliefs, the true Foundation is the Lord Jesus Christ, the Rock on which the whole Christian Church is built!!

Notice I refer to The Christian Church, of which the Adventist Church is a part of, I refer you back to my previous ‘blogs’ on how our Church came out of other Protestant Churches who in turn came out of the Roman Catholic Church, which had gone astray…

So, as part of the Christian Church, of course our Foundation is the Lord Jesus Christ, Creator, Saviour and King. The prophecy you speak of was concerning the Second Coming of Christ, or at least, about the Work of the Lord Jesus Christ in Heaven.

Also in my previous ‘blogs’ I wrote that the churches of the 1800 were kind of ‘sleepy’, just existing, they needed a wake up call and part of this was the writings of Ellen White, leading them back to a Study of Scripture. Always pointing to the Bible! Inspired, maybe, but never taken above the Oracle of Scripture!!

There we are, anymore and I will be told off for using too many words ha ha!! So more later brothers. Michael.

PS. Regarding websites talking against Adventists, they are 10 a penny, the same goes for the ones talking against the Roman Catholic Church, wherever there is true website there are maybe 10 against…

 

[geometer]

BTW–did you know that the name “Ellen Gould White” adds up to 666?

I do not believe that you can demonstrate the relation of her name to 666. You might try though, it would be interesting to see it…