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Des
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But that’s the same as saying Christianity is God’s chosen people which we aren’t. The Gospel is for all just like his Church.
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johnshark
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phummel
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On birth control…
What a nifty web site.
I didn’t recall the story of Onan - it’s been too long since I’ve read the entirety of Genesis.
The Scripture section was particularly interesting in establishing the precedent. Having a quote from John Wesley certainly adds weight for Protestants. I think Mrs. White had some harsh sentiments towards the idea of masturbation too, but I’m not sure her exact take on contraception.
Such a hateful and repressive conclusion. Poor me for my individual disobedience. I like the quote about a mountain of evidence. Yes, there is a mountain of conclusions from this story.
No need to respond.
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phummel
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Hello Brother2 - Thank you for the warm welcome. There will be some convictions we share and I would love to lend support and help spread the Good News. Any threads for discussion where you need help? Btw, perhaps you could lend me some insight/guidance as I try understand the SDA doctrines in another venue.Wow so wonderful to have you onboard!!! I have been besieged and out manouvered from all sides…ha so glad to see you.
No I have been to argumentative, because I was so ambushed and surrounded on all sides…ha, they are awful but i like them really!! Such cut and thrust of debate and discussion.
So glad to hear you are enjoying attending an Adventist Church and enjoying the fellowship, that is actually the most important, enjoying the fellowship and worshiping the Lord. Praise the Lord.
So Hello and glad to see you and maybe be we can have a more ‘civillised’ discussion!!
We are all members of the Christian Church and should behave as such, even though ‘they’ think they are ha ‘God’s chosen people’ ha ha.
Shalom, May God bless bless all here. Michael.
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placido
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And what happened to the Christian Church which started in Jerusalem? Does it still exist? Where is the written evidence showing it is different (in terms of doctrine) from the Catholic Church? Brother2, it seems you are dheading into a cul-de-sac.
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Des
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It doesn’t take faith to grasp the understanding that a fetus is indeed a human being with a right to life like everybody else. If this was based on faith, I’d have kept my mouth shut a long time ago.
And it’s not the amount of cells that make someone a human being phummel or a midget is less human than a man who’s 6 feet tall. At conception when a Zygote is formed, that is a new human being on it’s first stage of it’s growth cycle. Everything within this cell is already programmed into how tall, how smart, hair colour etc. it will be or have. The only thing this zygote cell (human being) now needs to do now is to mature and grow till adulthood.
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placido
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This hypocritical of you, coming from someone who believes the SDA is the remnant of God, yet denying Catholics the same rights.
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placido
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And I say NO!
You are reading your denominational beliefs into Genesis. No Sabbath was ever mentioned in Genesis - just read it again.
You reject the Bible that says the Old Covenant is obsolete, and the 10 Commandments were the Old Covenant.
There is nothing wrong after all if I chose to serve God on Wednesday, Monday or Sunday for that matter. But the Sabbath was not for mankind, it was for the Jews - please read your Bible again.
So, you are accusing St. Paul of arrogance for telling us that the laws engraved in letters on stone tablets have passed away?
Yes, that is another SDA error. According to the Bible the Seal of God is the Holy Spirit, not the Sabbath.
placido
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Des
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I would like to know how you can be 100 percent certain that this verse wasn’t talking about a weekly Sabbath. It seems like all you’re doing is assuming here because of this already established infallible dogma from your church.Oh Dear this old red herring again…sabbath days with a small s people, Jews had other sabbath days which were not the Sabbath plus all their other ceremonial laws that they told the new Christians they had to keep along with the 10 Commandments…the Pharisees had the people burdened down with laws especially about the Sabbath and stuff which were their own creation,which all pointed to the Atoning work of the Lord Jesus Christ.
So it was not talking about the 7th day Sabbath, encased in stone and all that and a lovely birthday of the world when God met with His creation for praise and worship…
Maybe now I can get to bed. Goodnight, God bless all here. Michael.
Here is an interesting quote from an article in This Rock Magazine dealing with the Sabbath where the author makes a very good case with that verse.
*The Old Testament usage of the terms listed in Colossians 2:16 (“festival,” “new moon,” and “Sabbath”) make clear beyond question that Paul is referring to the weekly Sabbath. In the Old Testament, Sabbath convocations—that is, the list of Sabbaths (days), new moons (months), and fixed festivals (seasons)—were listed in ascending or descending order. The ascending order of 1 Chronicles 23:31—". . . and whenever burnt offerings are offered to the Lord on Sabbaths, new moons, and feast days, according to the number required of them"—is echoed in 2 Chronicles 2:4, 8:12–13, and 31:3; whereas a descending order—“And it shall be the prince’s part to provide the burnt offerings, the grain offering, and the drink offerings, at the feasts, on the new moons, and on the Sabbaths, as all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel”—is used in 1 Chronicles 23:31. In Colossians 2:16–17 Paul uses the same structure as the Old Testament writers, allowing us to be sure that he is writing about not only the yearly and seasonal Sabbaths, but also about the weekly Sabbath. *
link dealing with the Sabbath itself.
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placido
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Referring to Col 2:16 you said:
Notice what is mentioned before Sabbath in the verse daily observance (“meat & drink”), yearly observance (“feasts”), and monthly observance (“new moon”). What observance is missing from this list? The answer is obvious to the unbiased mind: the weekly 7th day Sabbath. Even some SDA scholars admit that this is so. For example, two such honest SDA scholars are the late Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi and William E. Richardson.
Your belief that the Sabbath of Colossians 2:16 are ceremonial Sabbaths does not preclude the weekly 7th day Sabbath. The reason is that the 7th day Sabbath is a ceremonial feast. There is no such thing as a moral Sabbath in the Bible. This is an example of a church’s theology demanding something not found it the Bible be accepted precisely because it is that church’s theology. I would rather accept what Moses wrote under inspiration than accept any church or man’s interpretation. I would rather learn from Moses what Sabbath is meant in Colossians 2:16. Moses wrote an inspired list of God’s ceremonial feast days. Here is how that list begins: “The LORD spoke again to Moses, saying, ‘Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, The LORD’S appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocations–My appointed times are these: For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a Sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a Sabbath to the LORD in all your dwellings’” (Leviticus 23:1-3). The very first feast of the LORD is the 7th day Sabbath that is what Moses wrote under inspiration. Moses tells us that the Sabbath of Colossians 2:16 is the 7th day Sabbath which is a ceremonial feast of God."
Remember also that the Bible does not only call the Sabbath a shadow, it was said to be a SIGN. A sign of what? For the answer just read your Bible.
placido
I found the following answer elsewhere on the internet and I find this appropriate here too: “I find it interesting that the Greek word for Sabbath (Sabbaton) occurs 60 times in the New Testament and only in Colossians 2:16 do SDAs deny that Sabbaton refers to the 7th day Sabbath. Why does Sabbaton here not mean what it does everywhere else it appears? Everywhere else it means “day of weekly repose from secular avocations” (Strongs G4521). Perhaps it is because denominational considerations have replaced good biblical scholarship.
Notice what is mentioned before Sabbath in the verse daily observance (“meat & drink”), yearly observance (“feasts”), and monthly observance (“new moon”). What observance is missing from this list? The answer is obvious to the unbiased mind: the weekly 7th day Sabbath. Even some SDA scholars admit that this is so. For example, two such honest SDA scholars are the late Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi and William E. Richardson.
Your belief that the Sabbath of Colossians 2:16 are ceremonial Sabbaths does not preclude the weekly 7th day Sabbath. The reason is that the 7th day Sabbath is a ceremonial feast. There is no such thing as a moral Sabbath in the Bible. This is an example of a church’s theology demanding something not found it the Bible be accepted precisely because it is that church’s theology. I would rather accept what Moses wrote under inspiration than accept any church or man’s interpretation. I would rather learn from Moses what Sabbath is meant in Colossians 2:16. Moses wrote an inspired list of God’s ceremonial feast days. Here is how that list begins: “The LORD spoke again to Moses, saying, ‘Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, The LORD’S appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocations–My appointed times are these: For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a Sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a Sabbath to the LORD in all your dwellings’” (Leviticus 23:1-3). The very first feast of the LORD is the 7th day Sabbath that is what Moses wrote under inspiration. Moses tells us that the Sabbath of Colossians 2:16 is the 7th day Sabbath which is a ceremonial feast of God."
Remember also that the Bible does not only call the Sabbath a shadow, it was said to be a SIGN. A sign of what? For the answer just read your Bible.
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placido
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Uh! Holding “freedom and liberty in very high regard” and “being pro-choice” when it comes to the violation of one of the Ten Commandments (murder), yet allowing no freedom, no liberty and no choice at all when it comes to another one of the Ten Commandments (the Sabbath). Only SDAs cannot see the double standard!
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placido
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You really value freedom? Even the freedom to go against the will of God? Are all moral restrictions “hateful” and “repressive” or just the one dealing with the one favorite of the flesh, “birth control”?
I fear you may have chosen the freeway leading to destruction instead of the narrow way that leads to eternal life.
placido
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johnshark
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i guess i dont understand your meaning
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phummel
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Hello placido, yes this was a worldly answer that I provided. As I said, it will never be my choice to abort a fetus. So on a personal level, I feel that I am very consistent.
As far as freedom, God provides us with freedom to sin and only He has the right to judge us. I do not judge anyone for breaking any of the Ten Commandments. I am merely here to provide testimony.
I agree with you and fully respect the Roman Catholic Church for taking such a firm stand against abortion. Thank you for your convictions.
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phummel
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Thank you placido for your comment, “freeway leading to destruction”, I will ponder and pray over this. I believe the story of Onan can be interpreted as a commentary on extra-marital affairs as well. To me it wasn’t the act of spilling seed that was so offensive but rather that this woman was used for sex without the fulfillment of love.
I believe a married couple who love each other can participate in sexual intercourse for mutual pleasure without the plan of procreation.
In the end, I just simply disagree with your viewpoint but I will consider your words.
johnshark, I really had no point. Thank you for allowing me to indulge.
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phummel
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Hello Des this is a repeat of a response to placido-
yes this was a worldly answer that I provided. As I said, it will never be my choice to abort a fetus. So on a personal level, I feel that I am very consistent.
As far as freedom, God provides us with freedom to sin and only He has the right to judge us. I do not judge anyone for breaking any of the Ten Commandments. I am merely here to provide testimony.
I agree with you and fully respect the Roman Catholic Church for taking such a firm stand against abortion. Thank you for your convictions.
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phummel
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That is ok. I just wanted to share the joy that I find in it. I think there was wisdom in God’s words that still apply today.
True, I cannot find the word Sabbath in Genesis but on the 7th day He rested. Why would God need to rest? He is providing us with an example.
I trust Jesus when he said these things in Matthew 5:17-30.
Absolutely, there is nothing wrong; I hope you do have the time you need and desire to spend with God.
I disagree with your second sentence, I don’t make distinctions between what God told the Isrealites and mankind. I believe they were meant to provide a testimony to the rest of the nations for God.
No, but I also find meaning in Romans 3:31.
I think when ministering to new or perspective converts you cast a wide net and then once the love and message have taken hold, you can expand their hearts with what it means to reciprocate that love.
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placido
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"placido:
"placido:
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placido
I am interested in seeing you equate all of God’s actions in Genesis as an example for mankind. If not, why single this one out?
"placido:
So, you have a wrong understanding of Matt 5:17-30 as well. a) Jesus did not come to destroy but to fulfill the law; b) the law shall not change until it is fulfilled; c) Jesus fulfilled the law, THEREFORE the law has changed. If the law did not change then Jesus failed in Him mission of fulfilling the law so that the law would change.
"placido:
Regrettably, you are wrong. If you don’t make distinctions between what God told the Israelites and mankind, why don’t you sacrifice animals as God told Israelites? Where is your Passover? Where is your feast of booths? Ah, you make distinctions after all!
"placido:
And when your meaning contradicts the rest of the Bible, then, yours is a false meaning. St. Paul mentions law and you follow the SDA assumption he meant the Ten Commandments. If that is what he meant then he is contradicting himself when he says elsewhere that the Old Covenant, with its laws engraved in letters on stone, has passed away. Can you remember that the Ten Commandments were the only Old Covenant document engraved in letters on stone? That, says Paul, has passed away.
placido
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phummel
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God singled this out by putting it in the Ten Commandments.
I’m trying to read the Bible and understand what is God telling me, Isrealites, and humanity - sometimes the Holy Spirit is with me and I blessed to learn something. Other times I am just reading.
I agree that the law has changed. It has been enhanced.
As a Christian with love in my heart, I want people to see the righteousness of God in me.
We are not slaves to rules and regulations but rather we do these things because they just make sense in the context of love and the commandments Jesus gave us.
Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul. Love thy neighbor as thyself.
You cannot command someone to love, but once they have love in their heart, they truly are changed. Keeping these commandments are just one of the ways I can express my love. The power of the Holy Spirit makes this easier.
You are correct! I do make distinctions. I will pray and ponder some more.
In general, I’m not trying to approach the Old Testament, Old Convenant, ceremonial laws, and Levitical laws as a legalist.
I read these things and try to find the wisdom of what God was telling the Isrealites and why. The Ten Commandments just make good sense to me. They can be summed up by the commandments that Jesus gave us.
I was a vegetarian before attending the SDA church, so I also find wisdom in the health message of SDA and eating restrictions found in the OT.
In fact it was you and johnshark who shared the story of Onan with me and how that leads you to believe that “spilling seed” is sinful. I will pray about that some more too.
I think 2Corinthians 3 supports your position nicely and is on target. Let me know if you had other books and verses in mind.
I don’t want to live by rules and regulations out of fear, obedience, or tradition. These things are written on the tablets of my heart.
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phummel
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I’ve heard this too and don’t know where it comes from. You probably already saw this in wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments
If you can’t find it in the Bible, wikipedia the next best thing
I like the little chart Jewish, Protestant, Orthodox, Catholic. I don’t see any real differences - correct me if I am wrong.
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