Question for all protestants

[Porknpie]

You bring up a good point here. Yet it is my understanding that protestant seminaries do not necessarily teach from one specific viewpoint (other than maybe Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura). I got this impression while watching the program “the Journey Home” on EWTN and the host, Marcus Grodi" indicated that the seminary he attended graduated men who went to all sorts of ministries / churches who held all sorts of views.
He even mentioned that he and a classmate of his each cam out with very different opinions on Calvinist principles…

This would be quite different than a Catholic seminary.

Peace
James

You would think that while in seminary, they would all look at each other and ask “Is God the author of confusion?” And ask this question not on just one topic but really, many. Interesting be it though, having listened to every Journey Home episode in the last two years, many, many of the converts to Catholicism ask just that same question.

But my favorite Journey Home episode to date is the one with Kelly Nieto, former Ms Michigan and former aethiest. Link is here. We’ll worth the entire show, but particularly the first 30 minutes. I say no more.

PnP

 

[Porknpie]

As long as we keep away from translations of the “oldest and best” manuscripts, and stay with the “recieved text”, i’m all fine…

CET, we both agree that the bible in the inspired and inerrant Written Word of God. My question is: how do you know that it is? How do you know that all the books in the bible are indeed inspired and inerrant and that no writings are missing that should be included?

PnP

 

[Porknpie]

Well… God didn’t give us the church for discerning truth, He gave us the comforter for that task…

Not at all. Scripture is clear:

Timothy 3:15
15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth

And Christ promised to send the Holy Spirit, to lead this Church to all truth. Not “Us”. Christ was talking to his apostles, the first Bishops of the Catholic Church.

St Ignatius of Antioch, a disciple of St John the Apostle…is clear:

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

As was Cyprian

”Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church, which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another.” Cyprian, To Florentius, Epistle 66/67 (A.D. 254).

As was St Augustine who was writing at the same time the bibe was put together.

“We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is Catholic and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard.” Augustine, The True Religion, 7:12 (A.D. 390).

PnP

 

[JRKH]

It could apply to doctrinal differences, but not all of these problems where taken to the congregation in Jerusalem…

Perhaps not…But given that the Holy Spirit gives us both “instructions” in Mt 18:15-18 and the application of those instructions in Acts 15…We can see that this is how Christ our King wants us to resolve matters that are disturbing to the peace of the Church - If necessary we should take them to the Church in council.

Teaching a false gospel is a sin against God, for “thou shall not bear false witness”. I do believe that Jesus is talking about sins that are defined in the ten commandments. For the bible states that sin is the breaking of the law.

1.John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law:for sin is the transgression of the law.

Good - Glad you see what I am saying. Recognizing this may help you to see the Mt 18 reference in a somewhat deeper light.

So what you mean is that this loosing and binding pertains mostly to deciding which parts of the law is neccesary for the gentiles to keep or not?

The authority to bind and loose relates to “Whatever”.
This is a valid authority, given by Jesus to the Apostles and their successors - the leadership of the Church for the purpose of teaching and for protecting the truth of the Gospel.

As far as i can see, this kinda could be infringing on what the scriptures says about “not one jot or tittle shall pass”-thing, doesn’t it?

So - are you saying that the decision arrived at in Acts 15 was wrong?

I do agree that a healthy church with good principles about following the bible truth is a good place to start. But as we can see today, there are so many different opinions in -all- churches…

Amen -

I don’t believe the church was mainly given to be an authority in matters of truth, but a support-system, that would consist of people that we could reason with, and work together with to spread the gospel.

I agree totally that the Church is a support system. That is what it is described s by Paul…The Pillar and Bulwark of Truth.
But consider this…A Church without authority in matters of Truth can not support anything. It cannot be a bulwark if it cannot protect the Truth.
Likewise - we both know how easy it it to see Truth distorted when there is not pillar and bulwark to protect it.
So - Once the Truth is discerned - the Church protects it for all time - and teaches Truth universally.
This is just as Christ designed it and the Church fathers built it.

Well… God didn’t give us the church for discerning truth, He gave us the comforter for that task…

But how do you know that it is the comforter that speaks to you?
We both know that the evil one can even distort the text of Scripture - - So how does one "test the Spirit?
The answer is in community…Christ gives us the Church to test the spirits among the brethren and if my thinking or your thinking has errors in it, our brothers and sisters may spot it and help us to weed it out. Again - the need for the Church is seen…
Scripture itself speaks to the necessity of the Church and calls us to unity.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

I belive Jesus have already answered that question quite clearly.

Matthew 7:13-27
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not:for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell:and great was the fall of it."

Not everyone that says “lord, lord” shall enter, but those who does the will of The Father. The will of the Father? Probably to recieve Christ as our saviour, and also His rightousness as our own. (If we are born of God, we cannot sin, because God does not sin). If we sin, our father is the devil, and we are on the wrong way… And also the little detail of bringing the gospel out to all the people you can possibly reach…

Kind Regards
-c-

I’m afraid that this does not actually answer the question. When both sides of a doctrinal argument are both convinced - by reference to Scripture - that they are right…How do they know who has the Truth and who doesn’t.
Each believes the other is the wolf in sheep’s clothing…
Each believes the other is teaching a false and dangerous doctrine that endangers souls…
How do they discern who is right and who is wrong?

Peace
James

 

[cet]

CET, we both agree that the bible in the inspired and inerrant Written Word of God. My question is: how do you know that it is? How do you know that all the books in the bible are indeed inspired and inerrant and that no writings are missing that should be included?
PnP

The bible can have no inner conflicts, because: Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand.

It is a principle of God, the only way we can know what is and what is not supposed to be in the scriptures is by the Holy Spirit’s guidance. And the only way you can make sure that you’re bible is correct, is by praying God for the Spirit of Truth and then read your bible. If the Lord impresses upon your mind what is correct and what is incorrect you’ll know… Your question tells me that you doubt that this is possible, but that is not right. It is possible, and God is -more- than willing to help -anyone- that prays about knowing the truth, to find it.
For He says: “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?” (Mat 7:7-11)

Trust in Him, He will not fail you.

Mat 7:24
“Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock”

God has never failed me, but I have failed Him many times. But it is not in Gods nature to leave people in need. He loves us humans, to the point where He sent His Son to take our death penalty, how can He not give us everything else in addition? That is the reason i love Him, because He gave EVERYTHING to us… THAT, my friend is true love.

Kind Regards
-c-

 

[Jon_S_1]

The bible can have no inner conflicts, because: Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand.

It is a principle of God, the only way we can know what is and what is not supposed to be in the scriptures is by the Holy Spirit’s guidance. And the only way you can make sure that you’re bible is correct, is by praying God for the Spirit of Truth and then read your bible. If the Lord impresses upon your mind what is correct and what is incorrect you’ll know… Your question tells me that you doubt that this is possible, but that is not right. It is possible, and God is -more- than willing to help -anyone- that prays about knowing the truth, to find it.
For He says: “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?” (Mat 7:7-11)

Trust in Him, He will not fail you.

Mat 7:24
“Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock”

God has never failed me, but I have failed Him many times. But it is not in Gods nature to leave people in need. He loves us humans, to the point where He sent His Son to take our death penalty, how can He not give us everything else in addition? That is the reason i love Him, because He gave EVERYTHING to us… THAT, my friend is true love.

Kind Regards
-c-

That’s how the Mormons convince there propose there false books are correct,

 

[Jon_S_1]

The bible can have no inner conflicts, because: Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand.

It is a principle of God, the only way we can know what is and what is not supposed to be in the scriptures is by the Holy Spirit’s guidance. And the only way you can make sure that you’re bible is correct, is by praying God for the Spirit of Truth and then read your bible. If the Lord impresses upon your mind what is correct and what is incorrect you’ll know… Your question tells me that you doubt that this is possible, but that is not right. It is possible, and God is -more- than willing to help -anyone- that prays about knowing the truth, to find it.
For He says: “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?” (Mat 7:7-11)

Trust in Him, He will not fail you.

Mat 7:24
“Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock”

God has never failed me, but I have failed Him many times. But it is not in Gods nature to leave people in need. He loves us humans, to the point where He sent His Son to take our death penalty, how can He not give us everything else in addition? That is the reason i love Him, because He gave EVERYTHING to us… THAT, my friend is true love.

Kind Regards
-c-

You don’t find it odd that someone handed you a collection of books called The Bible, and then you are to I guess confirm they are scripture.

I am quite confident if you had been raised using a Catholic Bible you would be confident that it was the complete Bible.

Or if you were raised a Mormon, that the Book of Mormon was scripture. They use that same feel good tactic. Read it and pray and feel the “burning in your bosom” that it is true.

If the Holy Spirit operated this way, shouldn’t someone hand each individual, every ancient Christian writing so that each person could compile their own Bible as “the Holy Spirit guides them?”

But it’s not how God worked in the Old Testament and it’s not how he worked after Christ either.

God was clear to leave us a guide and a protector of His truth. It’s called the church.

 

[cet]

Not at all. Scripture is clear:

Timothy 3:15
15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth

Yes, but don’t get to hung up in the word church, because although ‘ekklēsia’ which is the word used, does mean church, it also means congregation, synagogue, christian community and a gathering of people (usually religious). I mean, it is the people that eventually is the church of God, not the buildings. And if the church consist of people, it is the people that is given the spirit of truth, not the buildings. And it also, just to point that out, mean that the Holy Spirit is given to ALL the church, not only the leaders in the church, because God does noe see any difference between men, we are all fragile, like smoke that exists in one moment and are gone in the next.

And Christ promised to send the Holy Spirit, to lead this Church to all truth. Not “Us”. Christ was talking to his apostles, the first Bishops of the Catholic Church.

Jud 1:18-19
“How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.”

Here’s a good pointer to why God gives the Holy Spirit to all who ask, because those who do not have the Spirit of the Lord, are the ones who follow their ungodly lust, are mockers and separate themselves and are sensual. The apostles where the leaders of the first chritian congregations, who consisted of jewish men who had recieved Christ. They where not the first bishops of the catholic church. That you cannot prove, and is therefore just a presumption. Besides, you would never get a jew, nor a christian jew to keep sunday holy when the bible teaches that Sabbath is the holy day of God.

St Ignatius of Antioch, a disciple of St John the Apostle…is clear:
“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

Yes, here Ignatius lists up a whole bunch of things not found in the bible, and you quote it as the thruth that are to be followed. This is where i would ask you: “show me from the scriptures”. The word eucharist isn’t even found in the bible? In the bible we are not told to follow the bishop as Jesus does the Father. We are told to follow Christ… How did it come to this, that Ignatius could reverse the words of scripture to make a system that replaces Christ?

As was Cyprian

”Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church, which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another.” Cyprian, To Florentius, Epistle 66/67 (A.D. 254).

The problem is, the catholic church -has- been cut, -and- been divided… So this isn’t right? There have been many disputes in the catholic church, even between popes that killed and did whore in the vatican? I mean, read the historybooks about the popes, it’s crazy how much madness have been done in the name of God, by the popes… I really don’t understand how at all someone can say that it is not cut and not divided, it kinda silly…?

As was St Augustine who was writing at the same time the bibe was put together.
“We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is Catholic and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard.” Augustine, The True Religion, 7:12 (A.D. 390).

Okay, i hereby will stop calling the catholic church by that name… Thanks for letting me read this quote… I’ll call it the roman church instead.
I am not an enemy of the people in your church, but i kinda tend to believe that the theology is a ‘bit off target’…
Just my honest opinion.

Kind Regards
-c-

 

[cet]

I’m afraid that this does not actually answer the question. When both sides of a doctrinal argument are both convinced - by reference to Scripture - that they are right…How do they know who has the Truth and who doesn’t.
Each believes the other is the wolf in sheep’s clothing…
Each believes the other is teaching a false and dangerous doctrine that endangers souls…
How do they discern who is right and who is wrong?

Peace
James

The only one you can ask to confirm if what you read in the bible is true or not, is to pray our Father in Heaven for Guidance, and He will give you that, The Holy Spirit… You need to trust in your God, not doubt if He is able, for that He is…

There is a story told about a man that was telling people how to discern truth from falsehood… Study the genuine article he said… The only way to see if something does not fit in, is to know what the true thing is beforehand… And if God does not give us His Spirit, so that we can learn His truth, then we are truly lost, no matter what denomination we belong to… Without truth, we don’t stand a chance…

Kind Regards
-c-

 

[cet]

You don’t find it odd that someone handed you a collection of books called The Bible, and then you are to I guess confirm they are scripture.

If God is interested in saving people, like He says he is in the scriptures, then if He did not answer to prayers, and didn’t help me verify if His words are truth, what kind of God would that make Him?

I am quite confident if you had been raised using a Catholic Bible you would be confident that it was the complete Bible.

Or if you were raised a Mormon, that the Book of Mormon was scripture. They use that same feel good tactic. Read it and pray and feel the “burning in your bosom” that it is true.

That might well be, but then again, God has His people all over, not only in one spesific church/denomination. If people are honestly seeking His truth, then He will show them, that is the God i’ve learned to trust in. Just because of that, He CAN be trusted, and he WONT let you down…

If the Holy Spirit operated this way, shouldn’t someone hand each individual, every ancient Christian writing so that each person could compile their own Bible as “the Holy Spirit guides them?”

If they are guided by the Spirit of God, it would end up being the same bible we have today, the canon with the 66 books. I’m confident that He knows what He’s doing.

But it’s not how God worked in the Old Testament and it’s not how he worked after Christ either.
God was clear to leave us a guide and a protector of His truth. It’s called the church.

And before the church? What did God have? That’s about 4000 years without a church, leading people individually, and in smaller groups… You know the first time people gathered in large numbers, when they started building the tower of Babel, God spread them all over the earth, because men got overconfident with themselves… For us to be truly happy, we need a personal up-close relationship with our Saviour, He needs to lead us, each and every one of us, because He wants us to experience His love firsthand… Otherwise it will be someone elses experiences… And in the long run, that does not cut it… He wants to put His seal on us, and to write His law in our forehead, and our hearts… His law, not the laws of men, but His own law, the law that teaches us to love Him and our neighbor. Knowing how easily people twist stories, even the ones that they want to keep original, isn’t it logical that God wants us to hear the truth from Him? Yes, the church has it’s function, but only as long as it does the will of God, if the church changes the truth/will of God, then the church is in trouble. God was even willing to let the enemy destroy the temple in Jerusalem -twice- to prove that point… His dwelling was utterly and completely destroyed, because people are more important than buildings and systems.

Kind Regards
-c-

 

[cet]

The authority to bind and loose relates to “Whatever”.
This is a valid authority, given by Jesus to the Apostles and their successors - the leadership of the Church for the purpose of teaching and for protecting the truth of the Gospel.

Okay, truth is that you believe that the roman church is the continuation of Christ’s church as it was established by his disciples, right? If your church defends the gospel, howcome the pope, the vicar of Christ, open up for darwinistic evolution? Even Christ believes that the earth and everything on it was made in seven days. I mean, he is the creator and all… If your church is defending Christ’s gospel, how is that possible to give in to the utter rubbish theory of evolution? Also, why, when God says that not one jot or tittle is going to go away from the law, until it is all fulfilled, why do the roman church change the law of God? The second commandment removed, the forth is changed, and the tenth divided into two commandments for making up for removing the second. God says himself that with Him there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Jam. 1:17. It seems to me that the roman church is willing to ‘change the will of God’ so to speak. Wasn’t it supposed to -protect truth-? (My voice is not angry, just eager… )

So - are you saying that the decision arrived at in Acts 15 was wrong?

No, they did the right thing, but methinks that you conclusion that your church has absolute authority, no matter what the case is, is wrong…

I agree totally that the Church is a support system. That is what it is described s by Paul…The Pillar and Bulwark of Truth.
But consider this…A Church without authority in matters of Truth can not support anything. It cannot be a bulwark if it cannot protect the Truth.

I have in the text above challenged your statement here, I don’t believe that the roman church is protecting the truth, because it as been actively changing what God has said, into what the church wanted Him to say…

Likewise - we both know how easy it it to see Truth distorted when there is not pillar and bulwark to protect it.
So - Once the Truth is discerned - the Church protects it for all time - and teaches Truth universally.
This is just as Christ designed it and the Church fathers built it.

Howcome the church fathers of the roman church disagree on so many things then? I don’t believe Christ designed it like that?

But how do you know that it is the comforter that speaks to you?
We both know that the evil one can even distort the text of Scripture - - So how does one "test the Spirit?

1John 4:1-3
“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God:because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God:Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.”

The apostle John says:
“We are of God:he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.” (1John 4:6)

Nothing here about the church. He is referring to the truth that him and His fellow believers had told them, as first hand witnessess… This was written down, and that is the truth we should believe…

The answer is in community…Christ gives us the Church to test the spirits among the brethren and if my thinking or your thinking has errors in it, our brothers and sisters may spot it and help us to weed it out. Again - the need for the Church is seen…
Scripture itself speaks to the necessity of the Church and calls us to unity.

This actually is not possible to find in the scriptures. If you search for “try the spirits” in the bible you only find one scripture, and that’s in 1John 4:1… It does not mention church at all… The bible on the other hand teaches us that it is our own responsibility to learn the truth… And the truth can be found with God, in the word of God… That’s what i firmly believe…

Also there is this little quote that i like…
Book of Carl. 1:1
“A church that wants it’s members to believe that they are the only authority on truth, has something to hide.”

Kind Regards
-c-

 

[Porknpie]

The bible can have no inner conflicts, because: Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand.

ok but where in the bible does it say that the bible is a kingdom?

It is a principle of God, the only way we can know what is and what is not supposed to be in the scriptures is by the Holy Spirit’s guidance. And the only way you can make sure that you’re bible is correct, is by praying God for the Spirit of Truth and then read your bible.

the Mormons say the same exact thing yet the Spirit of Truth leads them to different beliefs than you on the same bible. Is this how you believe the books of the OT and NT were selected, the NT compiled to 27 books out of a couple of hundred writings? Who was the “we” that the Holy Spirit guided in 382, 393 and 397ad? Answer: the Catholic Church synods at Rome, Hippo and Assisi. You implicitly trust that the Catholic Church was infallible in compiling the canon of scripture, led by the Holy Spirit (certainly) to know which books contained the apostolic faith guarded and protected by the Church for nearly 400 years.

Trust in Him, He will not fail you.

But it is not in Gods nature to leave people in need.

He loves us humans, to the point where He sent His Son to take our death penalty, how can He not give us everything else in addition? That is the reason i love Him, because He gave EVERYTHING to us… THAT, my friend is true love.

agree, very Catholic to say

PnP

 

[cet]

ok but where in the bible does it say that the bible is a kingdom?

It doesn’t say that, but the scripture itself states that it is the word of God and also that it is trustworthy, if the words from our God contradicts the other words from our God that is written in the same document, then we have a problem. wouldn’t you agree?

the Mormons say the same exact thing yet the Spirit of Truth leads them to different beliefs than you on the same bible. Is this how you believe the books of the OT and NT were selected, the NT compiled to 27 books out of a couple of hundred writings?

I don’t trust feelings like the mormons do, they sense a warm feeling in their stomach when they believe something is truth… I wonder how that goes when someone flatters them with slick lies… The Spirit of God is as real, and can also lead us to the truth, just like the scriptures say.

Who was the “we” that the Holy Spirit guided in 382, 393 and 397ad? Answer: the Catholic Church synods at Rome, Hippo and Assisi. You implicitly trust that the Catholic Church was infallible in compiling the canon of scripture, led by the Holy Spirit (certainly) to know which books contained the apostolic faith guarded and protected by the Church for nearly 400 years.

No matter who put the scriptures together, they are supposed to harmonize. My point is that i believe that God is able to let us see the truth as He has revealed it to us… I know there are several bibles that are no good out there, because someone mixed in the “oldest and best” manuscripts, that actually aren’t all that fine and dandy at all… But Gud lets us discern what is His word and what is not. I trust Him to do just that for us, otherwise it would be a very strange God indeed. Would He really give us a snake when we ask for bread? The question you ask me, is exactly that, you ask me how i can be sure that God doesn’t give me a snake instead of bread, and that the only one that can decide that is not God Himself, but the church…? Hmm… these are strange times indeed… I think i’ll stick to my trust in the Father and His Son, They haven’t let me down yet, and i’m 100% sure they will never do that anytime soon also…

agree, very Catholic to say

It’s not very catholic, but very biblical… Many catholics may say the same thing, but the source is not catholisism, but scripture…

Kind Regards
-c-

 

[Porknpie]

It doesn’t say that, but the scripture itself states that it is the word of God and also that it is trustworthy, if the words from our God contradicts the other words from our God that is written in the same document, then we have a problem. wouldn’t you agree?

CET, what is your bible verse that says scripture is the Word of God? And in that bible verse, what was scripture at the time of the writing? In the NT, St. Peter refers to only Paul’s writings as scripture. So you have to know what is scripture, in its entirety and how did the Church decide what was scripture.

The Spirit of God is as real, and can also lead us to the truth, just like the scriptures say.

No, not “us”. Christ was speaking to his apostles as this time, not to the crowds. “You” = the apostles = the first bishops. He was instructing his first Catholic Bishops, telling them that he would lead them to all truth on faith and morals.

12 “I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

No matter who put the scriptures together, they are supposed to harmonize.

No it does matter. Christ himself set up this Church with seven sacraments, including the Eucharist to give us the grace needed for our salvation. Christ is clear that we need to listen to the Church. Again, the “you” that he is speaking to is his first Catholic bishops, the apostles. You are not hearing those who Christ himself sent.

16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

My point is that i believe that God is able to let us see the truth as He has revealed it to us…

No easily. The Eithiopian eunuch needed help and St Peter said Paul’s writings were difficult … and there are 40,000 Christian denominations all believing differently on faith and morals using the same bible as you. So no, not really.

CET, take no offense at this personally, but it is a fact that Adventists allow abortions in their hospitals. This is opposite to the commandments and Christ’s words below. This is what happens when one reads the bible, removed from the Church from which it was written by, for and about. So are you saying that someone in the Adventist Church, read the scripture below, prayed about it and believed that the Holy Spirit guided the Adventist Church to have such a policy?

14 but Jesus said, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

PnP

 

[Porknpie]

Yes, but don’t get to hung up in the word church, because although ‘ekklēsia’ which is the word used, does mean church, it also means congregation, synagogue, christian community and a gathering of people (usually religious). I mean, it is the people that eventually is the church of God, not the buildings. And if the church consist of people, it is the people that is given the spirit of truth, not the buildings. And it also, just to point that out, mean that the Holy Spirit is given to ALL the church, not only the leaders in the church, because God does noe see any difference between men, we are all fragile, like smoke that exists in one moment and are gone in the next.

Your faith tradition, your church did not start until Ellen White came along. The Catholic Church can trace its founding in scripture by Christ to the apostles and from the apostles to their descendants. Christ did not leave us with a bible. He left us with a Church, with all authority as the Father gave Christ, a structure built upon Bishops and a Pope (preshadowed by the Prime Minister in the OT) and seven sacraments including the Eucharist.

The apostles where the leaders of the first chritian congregations, who consisted of jewish men who had recieved Christ. They where not the first bishops of the catholic church

Sure they were. History is clear. Again, St. Ignatius was a disciple of St. John.

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

Yes, here Ignatius lists up a whole bunch of things not found in the bible, and you quote it as the thruth that are to be followed. This is where i would ask you: “show me from the scriptures”.

CET, you are suffering from Sola Scriptura. :console:Kindly show me where in scripture that scripture says that the all of the Christian faith is only found in the bible. The was no bible until 400 ad… so what did those Christians do in 40 ad, 50ad, 60ad, 100ad, 200ad, 300ad etc??

The word eucharist isn’t even found in the bible?

True, yes, so what? That was a theological word to describe the bread and wine becoming the body and blood of our Lord. John 6 is clear. The early Church, universally believed in the Eucharist as the bible so clearly states. It also states in John 6 the “this teaching is hard, who can take it”. So it is also true of many today. Christ let the crowds leave him and didn’t correct them. Nothing symbolic. ** also, the word “Trinity” is not found in the bible either…

in the bible we are not told to follow the bishop as Jesus does the Father

chapter and verse please!

We are told to follow Christ

agreed. Very very Catholic. We follow his Church that he established, we receive the seven sacraments that he established, including receiving him in the Eucharist.

How did it come to this, that Ignatius could reverse the words of scripture to make a system that replaces Christ?

That’s a strawman. St Ignatius clearly followed Christ and he is consistent with later writers in the Church, usually Bishops who are writing. The better question is how can St. Ignatius’ words be in conflict with your theology? Perhaps your theology is in error.

The problem is, the catholic church -has- been cut, -and- been divided… So this isn’t right? There have been many disputes in the catholic church, even between popes that killed and did whore in the vatican? I mean, read the historybooks about the popes, it’s crazy how much madness have been done in the name of God, by the popes… I really don’t understand how at all someone can say that it is not cut and not divided, it kinda silly…?

A few bad Popes. Dante said a couple of him are in hell…but we are not to judge. Christ however, protects the Church in faith and morals, not in the personal conduct of its members.

Okay, i hereby will stop calling the catholic church by that name… Thanks for letting me read this quote… I’ll call it the roman church instead.
I am not an enemy of the people in your church, but i kinda tend to believe that the theology is a ‘bit off target’… Just my honest opinion.

I understand. FYI…I had an SDA roommate for a year…great guy…

PnP

 

[PRmerger]

Okay, truth is that you believe that the roman church is the continuation of Christ’s church as it was established by his disciples, right? If your church defends the gospel, howcome the pope, the vicar of Christ, open up for darwinistic evolution?

If by Darwinistic evolution you mean: random evolution of creatures, then no, the Holy Father has not declared this theory to be a viable explanation.

If by evolution you mean: God’s hand is in the creation of the world, and we started out as one creature and evolved into another creature, then what is wrong with that? There is nothing in this theory which contradicts the Bible.

 

[JRKH]

The only one you can ask to confirm if what you read in the bible is true or not, is to pray our Father in Heaven for Guidance, and He will give you that, The Holy Spirit… You need to trust in your God, not doubt if He is able, for that He is…

And when both sides have sincerely don this…Prayed to God for guidance…and are still unable to resolve their differences on doctrinal matters…Then what??

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Okay, truth is that you believe that the roman church is the continuation of Christ’s church as it was established by his disciples, right?

Yes I do - - - but that is beside the point that I am trying to establish here with you.
For the purposes of discussion - we can set aside the Catholic Church structure and “play in your yard” of Sola Scriptura and the protestant reformation churches.
My point is more about what Scripture tells one to do when there is doctrinal conflict.

If your church defends the gospel, howcome the pope, the vicar of Christ, open up for darwinistic evolution? Even Christ believes that the earth and everything on it was made in seven days. I mean, he is the creator and all… If your church is defending Christ’s gospel, how is that possible to give in to the utter rubbish theory of evolution? Also, why, when God says that not one jot or tittle is going to go away from the law, until it is all fulfilled, why do the roman church change the law of God? The second commandment removed, the forth is changed, and the tenth divided into two commandments for making up for removing the second. God says himself that with Him there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Jam. 1:17. It seems to me that the roman church is willing to ‘change the will of God’ so to speak. Wasn’t it supposed to -protect truth-? (My voice is not angry, just eager… )

OK my friend - you have established that you have issues with our view. I’m sure you have similar complaints about other church communities - Lutherans - Episcopalians etc.
Each of us believe as we do because we have prayed, studied, read, prayed some more and come to our present positions because we believe that God has guided us here.
Now - these differences obviously disturb the peace of the body of Christ…These differences are, in essence, similar to what we read happened in Antioch in Acts 15:1-2. So - for the Sola Scripturist - how does Scripture tell us to proceed?

No, they did the right thing, but methinks that you conclusion that your church has absolute authority, no matter what the case is, is wrong…

So you claim here that the decision in Acts 15 - where they changed jot and tittle - was right yet in your comments above you again reference changing “jot and tittle” as a bad thing…you are contradicting yourself.

Howcome the church fathers of the roman church disagree on so many things then? I don’t believe Christ designed it like that?

See this is where people so often misunderstand the Catholic Church. The Church fathers disagreed on things that had not been settled. They were writing and arguing in the “stage two” portion of the instructions of Mt 18:15-18.
There is no problem in this.

1John 4:1-3
“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God:because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God:Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.”

The apostle John says:
“We are of God:he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.” (1John 4:6)

Nothing here about the church. He is referring to the truth that him and His fellow believers had told them, as first hand witnessess… This was written down, and that is the truth we should believe…

This actually is not possible to find in the scriptures. If you search for “try the spirits” in the bible you only find one scripture, and that’s in 1John 4:1… It does not mention church at all… The bible on the other hand teaches us that it is our own responsibility to learn the truth… And the truth can be found with God, in the word of God… That’s what i firmly believe…

Church is not mentioned for one simple reason…The audience for this letter IS the Church - the members therein who - it can be assumed will read John’s letter, and discuss it…in community…Likewise when some member of the community has something to offer…they will share it in community and it will be by the community (the Church) that the “spirit” of this thing will be tested.
By such testing - an idea is purified…Truths revealed, errors removed…like the purification of metal in a forge.

Peace
james

 

[JonNC]

=cet;11335501]Okay, truth is that you believe that the roman church is the continuation of Christ’s church as it was established by his disciples, right? If your church defends the gospel, howcome the pope, the vicar of Christ, open up for darwinistic evolution? Even Christ believes that the earth and everything on it was made in seven days. I mean, he is the creator and all

When did Christ go into a scientific explanation on this subject?

Also, why, when God says that not one jot or tittle is going to go away from the law, until it is all fulfilled, why do the roman church change the law of God? The second commandment removed, the forth is changed, and the tenth divided into two commandments for making up for removing the second. God says himself that with Him there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Jam. 1:17. It seems to me that the roman church is willing to ‘change the will of God’ so to speak. Wasn’t it supposed to -protect truth-? (My voice is not angry, just eager… )

Time out. Where is the second commandment removed, and the tenth divided? I was not aware that the commandments were specifically numbered in scripture.

Howcome the church fathers of the** roman church **disagree on so many things then? I don’t believe Christ designed it like that?

How come you’re not capitalizing “Roman Church” when it is used as a proper noun? I don’t think the English language is designed like that.

Jon