Question for all protestants

[cet]

Your faith tradition, your church did not start until Ellen White came along. The Catholic Church can trace its founding in scripture by Christ to the apostles and from the apostles to their descendants.

Your pope can trace his roots back to the roman emperor, and even bear the same title as him pontifex maximus… Peter, bless his soul, was never a pope, he was a believer that became one of the leaders in the first jewish church. Remember, Petros means a piece of rock, not a large boulder (petra), like the one Jesus says he wil build His ‘church’.

Sure they were. History is clear. Again, St. Ignatius was a disciple of St. John.

There is no record of Ignatius in the scriptures, also there is no record of anything that we shall follow the bishop as Jesus does His Father. Jesus -never- stated such a thing… If that was true, shall we also follow the many catholic clergy who has molested small boys? I know that is a punch below the belt, but it is to illustrate a point… The catholic church claimes that the priest is a representative for christ, and should be followed like he was Jesus… Actions speak louder than words, but i do really believe that none of you would agree to follow the priest in such horrible acts like that…

CET, you are suffering from Sola Scriptura. :console:Kindly show me where in scripture that scripture says that the all of the Christian faith is only found in the bible. The was no bible until 400 ad…

No not really suffering from anything like that…

2Timothy 3:15-17
“And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”

And yes, there was scriptures that were good for teaching salvation long before the new testament was written, the old testament was the scriptures that Paul talked about in this passage. It contains everything you need to understand the salvation that God offers us… Especially in the temple service teachings… You should know these things, being a christian.

True, yes, so what? That was a theological word to describe the bread and wine becoming the body and blood of our Lord. John 6 is clear. The early Church, universally believed in the Eucharist as the bible so clearly states. It also states in John 6 the “this teaching is hard, who can take it”. So it is also true of many today. Christ let the crowds leave him and didn’t correct them. Nothing symbolic. ** also, the word “Trinity” is not found in the bible either…

Why add a cryptic word, and change the practice the Jesus started. Jesus never taught that he was going to be literally sacrificed every sunday for hundreds and thousands of years after his death and ressurection. That would be unbiblical, because he quite clearly states that he was to be sacrificed -once- for many. Not every sunday in the catholic church…

chapter and verse please!

How can i quote something i tell you that is not there? I said, it is nowhere to be found that we are supposed to follow the bishops like Jesus does the Father…

agreed. Very very Catholic. We follow his Church that he established, we receive the seven sacraments that he established, including receiving him in the Eucharist.

No not very catholic, very biblical. You follow a church that has changed a good deal of things found in scripture/the word of God. And a church that is disobedient to Christ is a church that is walking on -very- thin ice…

That’s a strawman. St Ignatius clearly followed Christ and he is consistent with later writers in the Church, usually Bishops who are writing. The better question is how can St. Ignatius’ words be in conflict with your theology? Perhaps your theology is in error.

No, not so… The scripture tell us to follow Christ, not Ignatius, or any bishop that condones changing the scriptures to their own liking.

A few bad Popes. Dante said a couple of him are in hell…but we are not to judge. Christ however, protects the Church in faith and morals, not in the personal conduct of its members.

Problems is that the same bad popes also can talk ex-cathedra, and change the official faith that the church holds… When there was a great debate about whether Mary was ascended to heaven or not, the current pope didn’t even know what to mean about it… Isn’t that a bit problematic for a person that is supposed to be the vicar of Christ? And that is in addition to the clear scriptures about the state of the dead.

Ecclesiastes 9:4-6, 10
“For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope:for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die:but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.”

There are several clear passages like this, the dead are dead, not conscious at all… Or does the church know better than the man Gods word states is the wisest man that ever lived?

I understand. FYI…I had an SDA roommate for a year…great guy…

Need to go to bed. Night night…
Kind Regards
-c-

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Again, I don’t accept that there’s Catholics, and then there’s “Catholics”, a subgroup of “Catholics” who have the freedom to oppose the chair of Peter.

Then you don’t accept the official position of your own church

 

[PRmerger]

Then you don’t accept the official position of your own church

My Church has never declared that a subgroup of Catholics has the freedom to oppose the chair of Peter.

As if.

 

[PRmerger]

If that was true, shall we also follow the many catholic clergy who has molested small boys?

Ah. So here we have it. What I call the CAFs version of Godwin’s Law.

Godwin’s law (also known as Godwin’s Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin’s law of Nazi Analogies) is a humorous observation made by Mike Godwin in 1990 which has become an Internet adage. It states: “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.” In other words, Godwin put forth the sarcastic observation that, given enough time, all discussions —regardless of topic or scope —inevitably wind up being about Hitler and the Nazis. Also the poster who mentioned Nazis loses all debates/discussions they had in said topic, and their insults are nullified.

Here’s the CAF version of Godwin’s Law I’m proposing: “As an online discussion about the CC grows longer, the probability of a reference to sexual abuse by priests approaches 1”

However, the poster who mentions the abuse loses all debates/discussions said in topic, and his insults are nullified.

And with only 69 posts to your name, cet, you win the dubious honor of being a Godwin’s law referent for under 100 posts!

 

[EvangelCatholic]

My Church has never declared that a subgroup of Catholics has the freedom to oppose the chair of Peter.

As if.

I am countering your original statement about the word “Catholic”. The document is the most recent and official positions of both the Roman Catholic church and Lutherans.

 

[PRmerger]

I am countering your original statement about the word “Catholic”. The document is the most recent and official positions of both the Roman Catholic church and Lutherans.

Could you please quote the teaching from the CC to which you are referring? I am reading the document you referenced, and it appears that throughout the document, in its entirety, it has made a distinction between the Lutheran Church and the Catholic Church.

Please cite exactly where the CC’s teaching is referenced.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Again, I don’t accept that there’s Catholics, and then there’s “Catholics”, a subgroup of “Catholics” who have the freedom to oppose the chair of Peter.

216​

You may also want to read this:

1. Thus, Lutherans and Catholics are able jointly to conclude, »Therefore
   regarding Scripture and tradition, Lutherans and Catholics are in such
   an extensive agreement that their different emphases do not of them-
   selves require maintaining the present division of the churches. In thisarea, there is unity in reconciled diversity« (ApC 448).82

 

[JonNC]

=cet;11340654]

There is no record of Ignatius in the scriptures, also there is no record of anything that we shall follow the bishop as Jesus does His Father. Jesus -never- stated such a thing… If that was true, shall we also follow the many catholic clergy who has molested small boys?** I know that is a punch below the belt**, but it is to illustrate a point… The catholic church claimes that the priest is a representative for christ, and should be followed like he was Jesus… Actions speak louder than words, but i do really believe that none of you would agree to follow the priest in such horrible acts like that…

No, it isn’t a punch below the belt. It is an obnoxious comment to make, insensitive to the victims of abuse, and accusatory of the many thousands of Catholic priests are who are good Christian men who serve their flocks with dignity, and grace, and love.

There are several clear passages like this, the dead are dead, not conscious at all… Or does the church know better than the man Gods word states is the wisest man that ever lived?

Hmmm. How then do you explain Moses at the Transfiguration? Or Jesus parable of Lazarus and the Rich man?

Jon

 

[PRmerger]

216​

You may also want to read this:

??? ???

I think we are having 2 different conversations here.

You seem to be saying: “your Church has stated that Catholics and Lutherans have much in common, including a belief in salvation through grace alone.”

If this is your point, then I give that a hearty

However, I am taking issue with some Lutheran folks here calling themselves " ‘Catholic’, but not ‘Roman Catholic’ "

Now, if you can show me a teaching of the Catholic Church which states, “Lutherans are Catholics, just not Roman Catholics, then we can discuss.”

 

[batman1973]

My respect for JonNC, notwithstanding…

There is no such thing as “Roman Catholics”, and then a subgroup of Catholics who are not subject to the Roman Pontiff.

I agree with St. Augustine who states (paraphrasing) that everyone wants to claim the name “Catholic”, but when a stranger comes to your town and asks where is the local Catholic Church, we all know which church you would direct him to.

Yes, there is. You have it listed in your profile. There’s Roman Catholics, Evangelical Catholics, Eastern Catholics and your listed subgroups.

 

[esieffe]

I asked this on another site and its got me thinking!:newidea: Oh NO!

Okay here it is. What makes one Protestant Preachers version of the Truth correct or incorrect over another Protestant Preachers version.

Lets say I go to one Protestant Church and the Preacher teaches me that this is what the word of God is saying, and then the next says this, and so on and I go to 10 different Protestant Preachers and get ten meanings. Who do you feel is right?

And how do you know which one is right?

I was an Episcopalian. There is a saying, Episcopalians are nothing but good Catholics gone astray. Nothing wrong with the Episcopalians I say, I just needed more. [My Dad is a retired Episcopal Priest. I have his blessings to convert.]

There are several Protestant denominations that terrify me. However, I think any Protestant denomination that preaches love and salvation is much better than nothing at all, there is hope that they will make it. Don’t give up hope until they throw dirt on the lid I say!

I did a lot of exploration. I started when I was a kid, and here I am. I can’t wait till Easter and my first Sacrament in the RCC! All I can say is read the fine print, that and meditate and pray about this. Read what others here have to say.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, there is. You have it listed in your profile. There’s Roman Catholics, Evangelical Catholics, Eastern Catholics and your listed subgroups.

Evangelical Catholics are subject to the chair of Peter.

Lutherans who call themselves Evangelical Catholics but who are not submissive to this office…are not Evangelical Catholics.

Again…

[SIGN1]There is no such thing as a group of Catholics who are permitted to be divorced from the See of Rome.[/SIGN1]

 

[EvangelCatholic]

??? ???

I think we are having 2 different conversations here.

You seem to be saying: “your Church has stated that Catholics and Lutherans have much in common, including a belief in salvation through grace alone.”

If this is your point, then I give that a hearty

However, I am taking issue with some Lutheran folks here calling themselves " ‘Catholic’, but not ‘Roman Catholic’ "

Now, if you can show me a teaching of the Catholic Church which states, “Lutherans are Catholics, just not Roman Catholics, then we can discuss.”

I referred you to the official summary of relationships between Roman Catholics and Lutherans signed by Roman Catholic, Rt Rev Karlheinz Diez, Auxiliary Bishop of Fulda and Lutheran, Rt Rev Eero Huovinen Emeritus Bishop of Helsinki. Co-chairs on the ecumenical commission presenting plans for the 2017 commemoration of the 500th anniversary of the Reformation.

You might want to familiarize yourself with the Catholic-Lutheran Dialogues.

 

[PRmerger]

I referred you to the official summary of relationships between Roman Catholics and Lutherans signed by Roman Catholic, Rt Rev Karlheinz Diez, Auxiliary Bishop of Fulda and Lutheran, Rt Rev Eero Huovinen Emeritus Bishop of Helsinki. Co-chairs on the ecumenical commission presenting plans for the 2017 commemoration of the 500th anniversary of the Reformation.

You might want to familiarize yourself with the Catholic-Lutheran Dialogues.

Again, there is nothing in there that I read that declares that Lutherans are Catholics who are not subject to the chair of Peter.

Could you please give me a text/quote/teaching from the Catholic Church that professes, “We proclaim that Lutherans are Catholics who may defer from submission to the Holy Father.”.

As far as Luther/Catholic Ecumenical dialogue, that’s cool. I give it a

Now, for the quote from my Church, please.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Again, there is nothing in there that I read that declares that Lutherans are Catholics who are not subject to the chair of Peter.

Could you please give me a text/quote/teaching from the Catholic Church that professes, “We proclaim that Lutherans are Catholics who may defer from submission to the Holy Father.”.

As far as Luther/Catholic Ecumenical dialogue, that’s cool. I give it a

Now, for the quote from my Church, please.

What don’t you understand about # 216?

This task is so urgent since
Catholics and Lutherans have never ceased to confess together the faith
in the »one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church
lutheranworld.org/sites/d…0Communion.pdf

 

[PRmerger]

What don’t you understand about # 216?

This: This task is so urgent since
Catholics and Lutherans have never ceased to confess together the faith
in the »one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church

I give a hearty high five!

Lutherans = Catholics (at least, a special kind of Catholic who doesn’t have to follow the pope)

I say:



And there is nothing in that document which declares Lutherans can call themselves Catholic.

In fact, there is a distinction in the ENTIRE document between Lutherans and Catholics.

That you confess to the same credal faith as my Church, sure.

That this document declares you can say, “I am a Catholic!” Nope.

Do you have some text from my Church that declares this, Evangel?

 

[Jon_S_1]

 

[EvangelCatholic]

This: This task is so urgent since
Catholics and Lutherans have never ceased to confess together the faith
in the »one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church

I give a hearty high five!

Lutherans = Catholics (at least, a special kind of Catholic who doesn’t have to follow the pope)

I say:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lq4dxeIiuE1qht847.gif

And there is nothing in that document which declares Lutherans can call themselves Catholic.

In fact, there is a distinction in the ENTIRE document between Lutherans and Catholics.

That you confess to the same credal faith as my Church, sure.

That this document declares you can say, “I am a Catholic!” Nope.

Do you have some text from my Church that declares this, Evangel?

I don’t think you understand the word "Catholic:. Here’s some information:

The term has been incorporated into the name of the largest Christian communion, the Catholic Church (also called the Roman Catholic Church). However, many other Christians use the term “Catholic” (sometimes with a lower-case letter “c”) to refer more broadly to the whole Christian Church or to all believers in Jesus Christ regardless of denominational affiliation.[7][8] Theologians writing in English will sometimes use the term “Church Catholic” or “Church catholic” to avoid confusion between this concept and the Catholic Church.[citation needed]

The Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, and some Methodists believe that their churches are “Catholic” in the sense that they are in continuity with the original universal church founded by the Apostles. However, each church defines the scope of the “Catholic Church” differently. For instance, the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox churches each maintain that their own denomination is identical with the original universal church, from which all other denominations broke away.

Almost all Christians who call themselves “Catholic” believe that bishops are considered the highest order of ministers within the Christian religion.[9] Along with unity, sanctity, and apostolicity, catholicity is considered one of Four Marks of the Church,[10] in line with the Nicene Creed of 381: “I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_term_%22Catholic%22

 

[batman1973]

Evangelical Catholics are subject to the chair of Peter.

Lutherans who call themselves Evangelical Catholics but who are not submissive to this office…are not Evangelical Catholics.

Again…

[SIGN1]There is no such thing as a group of Catholics who are permitted to be divorced from the See of Rome.[/SIGN1]

That’s your opinion, and the opinion of the Roman Catholic church. I don’t lose any sleep if they don’t consider me a Catholic. But, I am. I belong to the ONE HOLY CATHOLIC and APOSTOLIC Church. No, ifs ands or buts. If that makes you mad, that’s on you.

 

[esieffe]

Another one, you guys teach once saved always saved, that goes against scripture.

Thank you for that post. This is my primary disagreement with Protestants. In my mind you just can’t go out Monday through Friday and be evil incarnate, walk into a church and get it all forgiven while kneeling on a padded piece of wood at the back of the building, only to repeat it all over again while sporting a fish on your SUV.

I am SURE this does not describe the vast majority of Protestants. Most are good people. But I think it is important to illustrate that there are no free rides with impunity.