Question for all protestants

[believerdoc]

The problem with this believerdoc is it is unbiblical and man made.

You can show me no example explicit or implicit in the Bible advocating this laissez faire type attitude.

It is certainly not the case in the New Testament, and even clearer in the Old Testament.

Further, for issues such as marriage in my example, it creates a problem of relativism that results in non effective pastoral care.

It also creates the problem of what are essentials.

Gay marriage?
Remarriage?
Women Clergy?
Lesbian clergy ?
Abortion?
What is sin?
What does sin do to us?
What is salvation?
And on and on

Also your example of divergent Catholic views on contraception and Vatican 2 is a straw man since the people holding such views are as Protestant as a baptist. Even though the look catholic. They are not.

First of all it is absolutely biblical, God has always dealt with man on a one to one basis. The Catholic Church has placed so many created doctrine and dogma in place that were never commanded by Christ himself. They have established sacraments over the centuries that were not defined in scripture, made rules and regulation non-essential to salvation, and on and on and on. God is a God of simplicity. When Jesus ask what must I do to be saved how did He reply? That you will love the Lord your God with all of your heart and mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself. He did not give a list of 57,000 other things to do. You must accept the fact that the early church was not what you conceive it to be today; it was church in secret, meeting in homes, the catacombs, etc. led by the Holy Spirit and guided by the apostles in as much as possible. It was not the church that has been created over the centuries. It proclaimed the essentials of faith necessary for salvation. It was faith of simplicity, love, and commitment to the spreading the Good News of Jesus Christ

You ask what are the essentials of the church; it is really quite simple FAITH. Faith in the saving acts of Jesus Christ, accepting the mercy of God, loving each other, and following to the best of our ability the commandments that were given to us. This is the faith that was lived out in the early church and it wasn’t until theologians came along that things really became complicated because they assumed to know better than other the will of God. Talk to 10 theologians and get 10 different interpretations and that would only include Catholic theologians; add in Protestants and the matter gets even more confusing.

The other issues you listed are in most cases moral and political issues that if you following Christ are really not that confusing.

“Also your example of divergent Catholic views on contraception and Vatican 2 is a straw man since the people holding such views are as Protestant as a baptist. Even though the look catholic”. This statement really confuses me because you say if they don’t agree with you they are are Protestants but I am sure they would disagree. You have liberal and conservative voices in your own church that would not agree with your stated opinions. Even some of Pope Francis’ recent interviews show a more tolerant and less rigid and more loving view of your church.

Despite what you might think I consider you a Christian and follower of the Lord Jesus. What I think many have to learn on there forums is that there are Catholics that love the Lord and there are Protestants that love the Lord. Despite the way that humans have created all the confusion there is and always will be a loving God that says you are invited home through the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus.

 

[Amo_a_Jesus]

I realize something this morning, a lot of people take very serious what the pastor say, and even when they feel that the pastor is wrong, The pastor find the way to convince them that he is right, the church my girlfriend attend have a service but they don’t allow children to be on it, they have the kids on a room with volunteers take care of them, the pastor went around all these, saying if you go to a movies and you have a kid crying yo can watch the movie, the same here at church if a kid is crying and playing, you can’t pay attention to me, and you can’t learn my Bible study, well it sound logical and good, my girlfriend and her friend these morning where comment… You know what he is absolutely right, i never see it that way, at the beginning i was thinking that the kids should be at the service but now THE PASTOR make me see the truth… I’m not criticized just make the point that anyone run his “own church” any way they want, and people agree, even my friend girlfriend who used to be very nice with me, is not the same anymore i guess he think the same as my girlfriend(eX soon) Catholics are weird.

 

[JRKH]

Sorry to poke my nose in but - - well - - - that’s what I do sometimes…

First of all it is absolutely biblical, God has always dealt with man on a one to one basis.

This seems to me to be a rather broad comment that I am not sure will hold up in every situation…For instance - Sodom was dealt with “en-masse” and would have been spared en-masse if 10 good men could have been found…
However - I do agree that in matters of God’s Judgement of our soul - this is a very individual thing.

The Catholic Church has placed so many created doctrine and dogma in place that were never commanded by Christ himself.

Of course the Catholic would disagree with this since Christ did the following

1. Promised to guide His Church.
2. Gave the Church authority to bind and loose "whatever’
3. Gave the Church the mission to teach in His name
4. Commanded us to Listen to the Church.

God is a God of simplicity. When Jesus ask what must I do to be saved how did He reply? That you will love the Lord your God with all of your heart and mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself. He did not give a list of 57,000 other things to do.

Agreed - God is a God of simplicity. However - man is not a man of simplicity.
Even in the example you give above, the man was not satisfied…He asked “what else must I do?” This speaks to what I call the “Yea but what if…” syndrome. It is this tendency that has lead to the “57,000 other things” that you refer to.
Just as Jesus summarized the Mosaic Law - with it’s hundreds of ordinances into the two great commandments…So too can the many teachings of the Catholic church be similarly summarized.

You must accept the fact that the early church was not what you conceive it to be today; it was church in secret, meeting in homes, the catacombs, etc. led by the Holy Spirit and guided by the apostles in as much as possible.

Very true…No great tree looks like the seed from which it sprung or the sapling from which it matured…Yet the essentials remain.

It was not the church that has been created over the centuries. It proclaimed the essentials of faith necessary for salvation. It was faith of simplicity, love, and commitment to the spreading the Good News of Jesus Christ

Amen - and it still is.

You ask what are the essentials of the church; it is really quite simple FAITH. Faith in the saving acts of Jesus Christ, accepting the mercy of God, loving each other, and following to the best of our ability the commandments that were given to us.

So - then why do the protestant communions - refuse to recognize the NT call to unity and Christ’s command to “tell it to the Church and listen to the Church”.
Take the RC out of the equation…
The Protestant who holds to SS is still faced with the fact that the Christ Himself and the evangelists called us to a profound and visible unity of mind. The protestant is confronted with the fact that the Holy Spiritcaused these calls to be written down and included in the NT Canon of Scripture.

Calls to be one as Jesus and the Father are one…to be of one mind, to praise with one voice…to bear things together…to avoid dissension…to take difficulties to “the church” and to listen to the church…

Forget the RC for the time being…What does Scripture say about “agreeing to disagree” and having conflicting teachings within church groups even in the same city and town.

What does Scripture say…

This is the faith that was lived out in the early church and it wasn’t until theologians came along that things really became complicated because they assumed to know better than other the will of God. Talk to 10 theologians and get 10 different interpretations and that would only include Catholic theologians; add in Protestants and the matter gets even more confusing.

Yup - and this is why we “tell it to the Church”…
Just as our King commands us to do.

Despite what you might think I consider you a Christian and follower of the Lord Jesus. What I think many have to learn on there forums is that there are Catholics that love the Lord and there are Protestants that love the Lord. Despite the way that humans have created all the confusion there is and always will be a loving God that says you are invited home through the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus.

Amen - We humans are a pesky bunch aren’t we…

Peace
James

 

[cheezey]

… there are Catholics that love the Lord and there are Protestants that love the Lord. Despite the way that humans have created all the confusion there is and always will be a loving God that says you are invited home through the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus.

 

[cet]

Yet - consider this. Where the “new ideas” entering your church may be of concern to you. The very foundational ideas of your SDA church were once “new” and of concern to others.
The SDA was not one of the original protestant churches…but came along later as the result of “new and strange ideas”.
I do not say this to be offensive or to attack you. Rather it is to suggest that, in a sense, the whole history of the protestant churches is one of “new and strange ideas”.
Take Sola Scriptura for example. It’s not contained in Scripture - nor was it a principle or practice of the Church(es) in existence before 1500 AD. Five hundred years ago, “Sola Scriptura” it was a “new and strange idea”.
James

Well, i wouldn’t say that it was a new and strange idea, because before the catholic church said that tradition was on par with scriptures, the scriptures was regarded as the authority on truth. Still “new and strange ideas” should be checked if it conforms with the truth we find in the bible, no matter what traditions says.

That said - I like that you have quoted the importance of faith and the commandments. Yet - Why are you limiting yourself to only the 10 commandments? Jesus gave us a new commandment in John 13:34-35 - that we Love one another as He has loved us.
Actually this one command summarizes the 10 quite nicely - something Jesus makes clear in Mt 22:36-40.

I’m kinda limiting it to that, because the bible tells us we are judged according to the commandments, so our salvation kinda depends on what stance we take on this…

Rom. 2:12-13
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law:and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Then there is the command from Jesus about resolving problems within the Church. He tells us to “tell it to the Church” and to “Listen…to the Church” for it is the Church that has the authority to bind and loose. (Mt 18:15-18) Later we see this command in action in Acts 15.

There is a little problem with this… Mainly because it’s meant to resolve problems between two believers… And you kinda forgot to mention two steps -before- the step with mixing in the congregation/church/synagogue… And that is 1. Going personally to try to straighten out the matter. and - 2. Bringing one or two more witnessess. He does not firstly tell us to bring it to the church. And the only one that has the oppertunity to bind and to loosen, is the one that has been trespassed upon… If I sin against you, then you are the only one that can forgive me, not the church. That is why you are the one that can hold my sin against me when in court. If you didn’t do that, the church would have no case in a court of law…

Add to this the many calls to unity - profound visible unity - that we find in the NT starting with Jesus prayer that we be one (John 17:20-21) followed by Peter’s and Paul’s exhortations to unity in their letters.

I agree that Christ calls us to unity, but not on accord with truth. It is better to stand alone with God than to make compromises with a crowd that sides with the father of lies…

When we ask about “authority” in the protestant world…These are the things that we are looking at. When we see the many “Sola Scriptura” Churches being so dis-unified we have to wonder…how can they claim to follow the bible when they refuse to come together and resolve their differences - as commanded by Christ in the NT?

The reason that many churches are dis-unified, including the catholic church, we can clearly see, if scrutinized, that it is actually man’s pride that is in the way of truth blossoming up. It’s because the way of life that Christ calls us to is so fundamentally different from what we would like it to be. That’s why many christians disregard the clear spoken truth in the bible, and interpret the scriptures to their own destruction…
2.Pet. 3:16

I really would like for all Christians to have the unity that Jesus prays about to His father. But the father of lies is a cunning foe, and can easily sway the heart of those that are not well grounded in the truth of God, of the ones that do not use much time in examining their souls in the light of truth.
Because of recent happenings in my life, i see how easily people can lie just like that, without giving it second thoughts… It is so easy to use the bible to defend one’s own vile ideas, that it is quite scary…


Kind Regards
-c-

 

[adf417]

Well, i wouldn’t say that it was a new and strange idea, because before the catholic church said that tradition was on par with scriptures, the scriptures was regarded as the authority on truth. Still “new and strange ideas” should be checked if it conforms with the truth we find in the bible, no matter what traditions says.

I’m kinda limiting it to that, because the bible tells us we are judged according to the commandments, so our salvation kinda depends on what stance we take on this…

Rom. 2:12-13
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law:and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

There is a little problem with this… Mainly because it’s meant to resolve problems between two believers… And you kinda forgot to mention two steps -before- the step with mixing in the congregation/church/synagogue… And that is 1. Going personally to try to straighten out the matter. and - 2. Bringing one or two more witnessess. He does not firstly tell us to bring it to the church. And the only one that has the oppertunity to bind and to loosen, is the one that has been trespassed upon… If I sin against you, then you are the only one that can forgive me, not the church. That is why you are the one that can hold my sin against me when in court. If you didn’t do that, the church would have no case in a court of law…

I agree that Christ calls us to unity, but not on accord with truth. It is better to stand alone with God than to make compromises with a crowd that sides with the father of lies…

The reason that many churches are dis-unified, including the catholic church, we can clearly see, if scrutinized, that it is actually man’s pride that is in the way of truth blossoming up. It’s because the way of life that Christ calls us to is so fundamentally different from what we would like it to be. That’s why many christians disregard the clear spoken truth in the bible, and interpret the scriptures to their own destruction…
2.Pet. 3:16

I really would like for all Christians to have the unity that Jesus prays about to His father. But the father of lies is a cunning foe, and can easily sway the heart of those that are not well grounded in the truth of God, of the ones that do not use much time in examining their souls in the light of truth.
Because of recent happenings in my life, i see how easily people can lie just like that, without giving it second thoughts… It is so easy to use the bible to defend one’s own vile ideas, that it is quite scary…


Kind Regards
-c-

So what’s your opinion of the OP -

What makes one Protestant Preachers version of the Truth correct or incorrect over another Protestant Preachers version.

And how do you know which one is right?

 

[josigirl]

That’s a fair answer and you are correct. The reason I bring Catholicism into it is that I don’t understand why Protestants can be compared to each other and yet Catholics can’t. Either way the answer eventually ends up with, “Well, we have Scripture and we haven’t made an infallible proclamation so we can assume but can’t say for sure”

I would say that most Protestant Churches believe that a baby who dies before Baptism will still go to Heaven. I know this is what my Church teaches and I believe all Evangelical Churches teach the same. We’ll quote passages like:

Matthew 19:14Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

Matthew 18:3And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Protestants could say, “Well we can’t say for sure because we’re not God and we can’t judge” but that comes across as a much more insensitive answer to a sincere inquirer. All such an answer does is leave the possibility of original sin leaving them damned to hell for all of eternity or in some type of limbo through no fault of their own. I think Catholics and Protestants equally agree that this is unlikely; but nothing has been defined.

I do believe it makes sense that a baby who dies without being able to choose Baptism because they either didn’t have time, or didn’t understand it will go to Heaven. It makes sense, but sure I can’t judge. The Catholic response is similar, “We can’t judge and we leave it up to God.” So what’s the difference?

I have always been taught that babies and children are souls entrusted to us by God. Our job is to guide them back to the Lord. As they are unable to make decisions in their young infant lives, the parents become responsible for the child’s soul. When we are baptised, the original sin is removed. The baby is in Grace. When the baby dies, it enters heaven and gets to see the face of God because it has no sin, white and pure.

When a baby dies without the removal of the original sin, I have been taught that it goes to heaven and lives quite happy but can never see the Face of God as it still wears the original sin upon its soul.

 

[cheezey]

I have always been taught that babies and children are souls entrusted to us by God. Our job is to guide them back to the Lord. As they are unable to make decisions in their young infant lives, the parents become responsible for the child’s soul. When we are baptised, the original sin is removed. The baby is in Grace. When the baby dies, it enters heaven and gets to see the face of God because it has no sin, white and pure.

When a baby dies without the removal of the original sin, I have been taught that it goes to heaven and lives quite happy but can never see the Face of God as it still wears the original sin upon its soul.

and I have been taught that that Face of God can be seen in the eyes of a baby.

 

[Amo_a_Jesus]

I don’t know if you agree with me, but one of the main reason if not the most important fact, why Catholic is divided or many Catholics leave the church is in part of the creation of new churches, who many times based on lies and traps, trying to sell their church, I have been attack many times, you are going to hell for love Mary, you are going to hell because your baptized your infants, all your priests abused children, the Vatican is full of money, the pope is the antichrist, and i can go on and on… how many ignorant Catholics leave the church because of these theories without even have the time to Study, Yes a lot of churches are good, but many use dirty tactics, I don’t see why so many protestants are so intense to invite people to their church, even when they know you are catholic, why is the hurry to make you? I listen my girlfriend saying many times that Catholics go to mass and then they are going to get drunk… or you going to mass and you don’t even read the Bible, that is a reason for many for not be Catholic.

 

[cet]

So what’s your opinion of the OP -

Well, my take on the question would rather be about people than denominations. I suppose that even in the catholic church people disagree on theology… I mean, even the church fathers don’t seem to agree on very much, maybe exept for agreeing on disagreeing. So my opinion is that we humans tend to lean our ears to what sounds comfortable, even to the point where we are willing to listen to teachings of demons… This is also what the scriptures teach, that even Satan is willing to dress up as a bright shining angel, proclaiming very credible lies, and are in fact also able to seduce even the elect, if they are not grounded in the truth… This makes the question of denominations really superficial, since what satan is out to do is to drag as many as possible away from God, and he is not dependent on some orginisation to do that… Surely he has an army of fallen angels to help him… He can infiltrate every church on this planet, without problems…

The bible tells us to look at the fruits to tell who is the real christian/believer. If we don’t bear fruits, it is pointless. Then we are on our way to be broken off the tree, and cast out to be burnt/destroyed…

That is also why it is so important to stick with the bible when it comes to revealing the truth, because when we ask humans/churches, their opinions on theology are prone to changes, misunderstandings and pure selfishness. But the word of God makes no difference between men, to God all men are the same. That is why HE never changes His truth, so that all men have the same guide, The word of God, the Holy Spirit and the faith of Jesus.

Kind Regards
-c-

 

[rinnie]

Yes, but being a woman was never against the Torah either! My point is this: if priests must conform to the model of the Apostles, why is their maleness important and their Jewishness not? Likewise with regard to being an icon of Christ; if Christ’s maleness must be represented in the priest, why not his Jewishness, or his brown skin? What is it that makes maleness more important than these things?

I don’t mean this to be a hostile question at all, I’ve just never seen anyone explain this in a satisfactory way before…

I don’t think any of us can ever have the mind of Christ for why he did what he did, or why he does what he does.

He never promised us that he would reveal to us the mind of God.

He only promised us he would reveal his truth by the Power of the Holy Spirit in the CC so we could all be united in one truth.

Why God chose all men for Apostles is a question not even the Church can answer because it has not been given to the Church.

All the Church can teach is the truth that was revealed to it by the H.S.

And the truth we have is Christ compares marriage to his oneness with the Church.The Church is the bride of Christ.

So to think of this another way, how could you use this teaching and use a woman and the Church? Do you see what I am saying? Just my persomal opinion, but I believe ome valid to think about.

 

[JRKH]

Thank you for your kind responses…Nicely expressed…I hope I can do as well in reply.

Well, i wouldn’t say that it was a new and strange idea, because before the catholic church said that tradition was on par with scriptures, the scriptures was regarded as the authority on truth. Still “new and strange ideas” should be checked if it conforms with the truth we find in the bible, no matter what traditions says.

Actually - the Canon of Scripture that we hold to today comes from oral traditions that existed for 400 years prior to the assembling of the 27 book NT.
And - this 27 book canon was codified, assembled, copied, translated, promulgated and taught from by the Catholic Church for 1000 years before the idea of “Sola Scriptura” ever came about.

Yes - Jesus warned about “traditions of men”…Yet Paul in 2 Thess exhorts the faithful to hold the the “traditions” they received (mostly orally) from him.

There is a little problem with this… Mainly because it’s meant to resolve problems between two believers… And you kinda forgot to mention two steps -before- the step with mixing in the congregation/church/synagogue… And that is 1. Going personally to try to straighten out the matter. and - 2. Bringing one or two more witnesses. He does not firstly tell us to bring it to the church. And the only one that has the opportunity to bind and to loosen, is the one that has been trespassed upon… If I sin against you, then you are the only one that can forgive me, not the church. That is why you are the one that can hold my sin against me when in court. If you didn’t do that, the church would have no case in a court of law…

Actually I did not forget the other verses as should be apparent since I included those verses in my reference.
I see things in your comment above that I agree with and things that I don’t - or more accurately - I think you have not rightly included.
Indeed the passage speaks of sins of one against another. But should we limit this too narrowly? Is is not possible for one to sin against many? Is is not possible for many to sin against one?
And most importantly to the point I wish to make…Is teaching a false Gospel a sin and is that sin committed against the brethren?
I’m sure you will agree that teaching a false doctrine is a sin. I’m also sure that you will agree that one can sin against many…and that being the case…Mt 18:15-18 would apply to doctrinal differences.

As to the matter of binding and loosing. I do not see how you can equate this with the issue of forgiveness.
Note that this phrase is used only twice in the whole of the NT. Both times in Matthew and both times associated with the Church and the granting of authority.
Note also that the phrase is not used in Mt 18:15-18 until the end of that passage - Until the Church has become involved.

Now - to more fully understand this - and how it works in the matter of doctrinal differences…take a look at Acts 15:1-2. Put yourself into the scene here…Some Christians come up from Jerusalem to Antioch. They meet up with some local Christians and begin discussing the faith and the dispute arises over the matter of circumcision (and Mosaic Law in general). Here you have steps one and two in full force…
Even the great evangelist Paul is brought into the argument but to no avail.
In the protestant mode of operation, each group would deny that the other had any authority over the other and eventually two separate communions would be set-up in the same city.

But of course we see this is not what happened. Paul and others were sent to Jerusalem to have the issue settled…The Church in council, guided by the Spirit, “loosed” the majority of the requirements of the Mosaic Law.
This was about - "… whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. - (Matthew 18:18)

I agree that Christ calls us to unity, but not on accord with truth.

Do you mean “Only in accord with truth”?

It is better to stand alone with God than to make compromises with a crowd that sides with the father of lies…

Agreed…Thankfully God also saw the danger of standing alone - and gave us a Church to commune and check ourselves with so that we - as individuals - not fall into error.

The reason that many churches are dis-unified, including the catholic church, we can clearly see, if scrutinized, that it is actually man’s pride that is in the way of truth blossoming up. It’s because the way of life that Christ calls us to is so fundamentally different from what we would like it to be. That’s why many christians disregard the clear spoken truth in the bible, and interpret the scriptures to their own destruction…
2.Pet. 3:16

Amen - No argument on this…

I really would like for all Christians to have the unity that Jesus prays about to His father. But the father of lies is a cunning foe, and can easily sway the heart of those that are not well grounded in the truth of God, of the ones that do not use much time in examining their souls in the light of truth.

Amen - and again - God, through the blessing of His Church - has given us an invaluable resource in discerning Truth.

I too wish for greater unity among Christians. Let us both work and pray toward this goal.

Peace
James

 

[rinnie]

I don’t know if you agree with me, but one of the main reason if not the most important fact, why Catholic is divided or many Catholics leave the church is in part of the creation of new churches, who many times based on lies and traps, trying to sell their church, I have been attack many times, you are going to hell for love Mary, you are going to hell because your baptized your infants, all your priests abused children, the Vatican is full of money, the pope is the antichrist, and i can go on and on… how many ignorant Catholics leave the church because of these theories without even have the time to Study, Yes a lot of churches are good, but many use dirty tactics, I don’t see why so many protestants are so intense to invite people to their church, even when they know you are catholic, why is the hurry to make you? I listen my girlfriend saying many times that Catholics go to mass and then they are going to get drunk… or you going to mass and you don’t even read the Bible, that is a reason for many for not be Catholic.

What really amazes me about this, is they deny the truth of the RCC, but yet seem to hold us to higher standards then other Church’s.

Wonder why? ITs like because we are Catholic, and have the fullness of the truth, we should be void to temptation of sin or something. Actually the bible tells us quite the opposite is true.

Peter was the one that Loved Jesus so much, and yet as Christ told him, Peter the devil wants you. Why? Simple, as we are taught, its the ones who love Christ the most, and are the closest to him, that the devil wants the most.

The Pope has been called the devil, and yet he is the greatest example we have had in our lifetime,. He gets up, he prays, confesses everyday, etc. Wonder why they don’t want to talk about that.

 

[Peebo]

THE Catholic Church. through the early church fathers and guided by the Holy Spirit bought together the books of the bible…the sacred canon…the Protestant reformers under their own authority decided that seven of those books were not worthy of being sacred scripture…Protestants claim they believe the bible as the word of God and the only authority needed to understand Gods word…so how can they claim to believe the word of God if under their own authority they denied seven books of the bible as being worthy…wouldn’t that logically follow then… that under their own authority they would have to deny that the bible was guided by the Holy Spirit…given that…no wonder they can’t agree from one verse of scripture to the next…that is why there are over thirty thousand Protestant churches…and growing daily…it’s like the protesters are still protesting the protesters

 

[rinnie]

Well, my take on the question would rather be about people than denominations. I suppose that even in the catholic church people disagree on theology… I mean, even the church fathers don’t seem to agree on very much, maybe exept for agreeing on disagreeing. So my opinion is that we humans tend to lean our ears to what sounds comfortable, even to the point where we are willing to listen to teachings of demons… This is also what the scriptures teach, that even Satan is willing to dress up as a bright shining angel, proclaiming very credible lies, and are in fact also able to seduce even the elect, if they are not grounded in the truth… This makes the question of denominations really superficial, since what satan is out to do is to drag as many as possible away from God, and he is not dependent on some orginisation to do that… Surely he has an army of fallen angels to help him… He can infiltrate every church on this planet, without problems…

The bible tells us to look at the fruits to tell who is the real christian/believer. If we don’t bear fruits, it is pointless. Then we are on our way to be broken off the tree, and cast out to be burnt/destroyed…

That is also why it is so important to stick with the bible when it comes to revealing the truth, because when we ask humans/churches, their opinions on theology are prone to changes, misunderstandings and pure selfishness. But the word of God makes no difference between men, to God all men are the same. That is why HE never changes His truth, so that all men have the same guide, The word of God, the Holy Spirit and the faith of Jesus.

Kind Regards
-c-

If I can add something brief, this is kind of what I am talking about. As you stated, and rightfull so, even in the Catholic Church PEOPLE disagree on theology.

But that is the main difference. Truth can be found. If they want it. See if one Catholic disagrees with another they find truth, exactly where the bible tells them. Go to the Church the Church is the fullness of the truth.

Now will they accept it? If they are a true Catholic as they say, and truly believe the Church is the Pilar of all truth, and God kept his word and the HS is leading it, They will indeed accept it.

 

[JRKH]

…
(Snip)

So my opinion is that we humans tend to lean our ears to what sounds comfortable, even to the point where we are willing to listen to teachings of demons… This is also what the scriptures teach, that even Satan is willing to dress up as a bright shining angel, proclaiming very credible lies, and are in fact also able to seduce even the elect, if they are not grounded in the truth…

So - then the question becomes - and this gets back to the OP - how does one discern that their “bright shining angel” is true while the other guy’s "bright shining angel is false?

Being firmly grounded in “Truth” is a wonderful expression - but what does it mean? Each side believes themselves “firmly grounded in Truth”…and most use Scripture to back them up.

Peace
James

 

[adf417]

Well, my take on the question would rather be about people than denominations. I suppose that even in the catholic church people disagree on theology… I mean, even the church fathers don’t seem to agree on very much, maybe exept for agreeing on disagreeing.

Sure and my wife and I don’t agree in everything, except the part that she is always right, but our marriage being one in Christ makes our unified decisions one decision.

The fathers do not have to agree on everything but they did agree to submit to the authority of the church and remain as one.

So my opinion is that we humans tend to lean our ears to what sounds comfortable, even to the point where we are willing to listen to teachings of demons… This is also what the scriptures teach, that even Satan is willing to dress up as a bright shining angel, proclaiming very credible lies, and are in fact also able to seduce even the elect, if they are not grounded in the truth… This makes the question of denominations really superficial, since what satan is out to do is to drag as many as possible away from God, and he is not dependent on some orginisation to do that… Surely he has an army of fallen angels to help him… He can infiltrate every church on this planet, without problems…

OK. So now can you answer the OP?

The bible tells us to look at the fruits to tell who is the real christian/believer. If we don’t bear fruits, it is pointless. Then we are on our way to be broken off the tree, and cast out to be burnt/destroyed…

That is also why it is so important to stick with the bible when it comes to revealing the truth, because when we ask humans/churches, their opinions on theology are prone to changes, misunderstandings and pure selfishness. But the word of God makes no difference between men, to God all men are the same. That is why HE never changes His truth, so that all men have the same guide, The word of God, the Holy Spirit and the faith of Jesus.

Yep and even JW’s use this formula to prove their perverted religion.

Peace!!!

 

[rinnie]

So - then the question becomes - and this gets back to the OP - how does one discern that their “bright shining angel” is true while the other guy’s "bright shining angel is false?

Being firmly grounded in “Truth” is a wonderful expression - but what does it mean? Each side believes themselves “firmly grounded in Truth”…and most use Scripture to back them up.

Peace
James

And if I may add, what happens when the scripture they use to back themself up contradicts scripture?

I guess if I could add a portion to my own thread would be, how can a Protestant Preacher claim authority over a Protestant member, when they both seem to claim to have the ability to be firmly grounded in truth.

 

[cet]

Actually - the Canon of Scripture that we hold to today comes from oral traditions that existed for 400 years prior to the assembling of the 27 book NT.
And - this 27 book canon was codified, assembled, copied, translated, promulgated and taught from by the Catholic Church for 1000 years before the idea of “Sola Scriptura” ever came about.

As long as we keep away from translations of the “oldest and best” manuscripts, and stay with the “recieved text”, i’m all fine…

Yes - Jesus warned about “traditions of men”…Yet Paul in 2 Thess exhorts the faithful to hold the the “traditions” they received (mostly orally) from him.

Paul had a really close relationship with both the congregation in Jerusalem and his Savior, as he had a very up-close meeting with him… His traditions are better than traditions coming into play several hundred years later. I would rather trust Paul, than clergy of today…

And most importantly to the point I wish to make…Is teaching a false Gospel a sin and is that sin committed against the brethren?

It could apply to doctrinal differences, but not all of these problems where taken to the congregation in Jerusalem… Teaching a false gospel is a sin against God, for “thou shall not bear false witness”. I do believe that Jesus is talking about sins that are defined in the ten commandments. For the bible states that sin is the breaking of the law.

1.John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law:for sin is the transgression of the law.

As to the matter of binding and loosing. I do not see how you can equate this with the issue of forgiveness.

What else would be the reason for binding or loosing? If there is anything other than sin that can keep people in the manner mentioned in the scriptures here, you have to show me… There would be no reason to take anything but unrepentive sinners to the leadership in Jerusalem for solving the problem. That would be kinda abusive, don’t you think?

Now - to more fully understand this - and how it works in the matter of doctrinal differences…take a look at Acts 15:1-2.
------------cut-----------------
.The Church in council, guided by the Spirit, “loosed” the majority of the requirements of the Mosaic Law.
This was about - "… whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. - (Matthew 18:18)

So what you mean is that this loosing and binding pertains mostly to deciding which parts of the law is neccesary for the gentiles to keep or not? As far as i can see, this kinda could be infringing on what the scriptures says about “not one jot or tittle shall pass”-thing, doesn’t it?

Do you mean “Only in accord with truth”?

Yes, i suppose i do… sorry 'bout that…

Agreed…Thankfully God also saw the danger of standing alone - and gave us a Church to commune and check ourselves with so that we - as individuals - not fall into error.

I do agree that a healthy church with good principles about following the bible truth is a good place to start. But as we can see today, there are so many different opinions in -all- churches… Even the catholic church, which is also the reason the reformers tried to reform the catholic faith, because the saw serious flaws in the theology of the system. I don’t believe the church was mainly given to be an authority in matters of truth, but a support-system, that would consist of people that we could reaon with, and work together with to spread the gospel.

Amen - and again - God, through the blessing of His Church - has given us an invaluable resource in discerning Truth.

Well… God didn’t give us the church for discerning truth, He gave us the comforter for that task… As long as leaders follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit, that’s all fine and dandy. But if it doesn’t, the church ain’t even worth the buildings that they reside in… Jesus demonstrated that point when He prophecied that in Jerusalem there would not be stone upon stone left of the temple, the pride of the Israelites… And that goes for all of us, whether it be the General Conference in the SDA-church, or it be the Vatican… It doesn’t matter to God. What matters is if we follow His lead or not, and again: By the fruits ye shall know them…

I too wish for greater unity among Christians. Let us both work and pray toward this goal.

Unity is wanted, but praying alone does not help, unless we are willing to let go of the false teachings that God doesn’t want to have there, and He also needs His people to have Christ’ image in our hearts, and being clad in His rightousness… And also if we look at the prophetic forsight of Christ in Revelation, we can also see that there are two types of congregations, the virgin and the whore. So there are christian systems in the world today that fits those descriptions. And God calls His people to come out of the church that fits the description of the whore, and also her daughters, meaning the churches that sides with the whore in teachings… Her allies so to speak… I don’t think God sees that there can be unity between those two groups, the only thing that God advises His people to do, is to leave that particular church/group of worshippers… And also to top the whole thing, he says to that group of people, that obviously thinks that they are doing Gods will, healing, driving out demons and other things, that He does not know them…
Unity? Yes, by all means possible, exept for compromise… No compromises can be done with the fallen foe, without suffering dire consequences…

Kind Regards
-c-

 

[cet]

So - then the question becomes - and this gets back to the OP - how does one discern that their “bright shining angel” is true while the other guy’s "bright shining angel is false?

Being firmly grounded in “Truth” is a wonderful expression - but what does it mean? Each side believes themselves “firmly grounded in Truth”…and most use Scripture to back them up.

Peace
James

I belive Jesus have already answered that question quite clearly.

Matthew 7:13-27
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not:for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell:and great was the fall of it."

Not everyone that says “lord, lord” shall enter, but those who does the will of The Father. The will of the Father? Probably to recieve Christ as our saviour, and also His rightousness as our own. (If we are born of God, we cannot sin, because God does not sin). If we sin, our father is the devil, and we are on the wrong way… And also the little detail of bringing the gospel out to all the people you can possibly reach…

Kind Regards
-c-