Question for all protestants

  • Thread starter Thread starter rinnie
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
EvangelCatholic said:
Sorry but I have produced several documents even co-authored by the Roman Catholic bishop representing the Vatican claiming Lutherans profess the Catholic faith.
Click to expand...
Again, you are having a different argument, it appears.

Lutherans and Catholics do profess the same credal beliefs. Salvation by grace. Belief in One God.

But I have stated that you cannot claim to be a Catholic, and no document of the Church has ever stated this.
Why don’t you produce a single document to the contrary?
Click to expand...
Here is my source:

lutheranworld.org/sites/default/files/From%20Conflict%20to%20Communion.pdf

Please note: each and every time the term “Lutheran” is referenced, it means your church.

Each and every time the term “Catholic” is referenced, it means my Church.

Never--not even once–ever, ever, ever, does this document imply when* Catholic* is used that it also means Lutheran.

QED.
 
PRmerger said:
Again, you are having a different argument, it appears.

Lutherans and Catholics do profess the same credal beliefs. Salvation by grace. Belief in One God.

But I have stated that you cannot claim to be a Catholic, and no document of the Church has ever stated this.

Here is my source:

lutheranworld.org/sites/default/files/From%20Conflict%20to%20Communion.pdf

Please note: each and every time the term “Lutheran” is referenced, it means your church.

Each and every time the term “Catholic” is referenced, it means my Church.

Never--not even once–ever, ever, ever, does this document imply when* Catholic* is used that it also means Lutheran.

QED.
Click to expand...
I suggest reading “From Conflict and Communion” rather than underlie two words. Please explain this statement:
This task is so urgent since
Catholics and Lutherans have never ceased to confess together the faith
in the »one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church
lutheranworld.org/sites/d…0Communion.pdf
Click to expand...
 
PRmerger said:
Again, you are having a different argument, it appears.

Lutherans and Catholics do profess the same credal beliefs. Salvation by grace. Belief in One God.

But I have stated that you cannot claim to be a Catholic, and no document of the Church has ever stated this.

Here is my source:

lutheranworld.org/sites/default/files/From%20Conflict%20to%20Communion.pdf

Please note: each and every time the term “Lutheran” is referenced, it means your church.

Each and every time the term “Catholic” is referenced, it means my Church.

Never--not even once–ever, ever, ever, does this document imply when* Catholic* is used that it also means Lutheran.

QED.
Click to expand...
Incidentally, not that I need to add any more to the above, as it is, quite simply, incontrovertible, I will say that in addition to batman, a Lutheran, stating that the Catholic Church has not declared that Lutheran = Catholic, here’s* another* affirmation from another Lutheran, JonNC, that the CC has never declared that Lutheran = Catholic:
JonNC said:
The honest answer is, while we** would** welcome that nod from the CC, we don’t actually need it. I don’t mean that to sound combative, just to express our understanding that we are both Catholic and evangelical ( in the historic sense ).
On the dialogue, however, **I don’t believe the issue would even come **up. The ha e far more important things to discuss.

Jon
Click to expand...
That is, Jon’s use of the word “would” indicates that it has not happened.

And that he believes that the issue hasn’t even been brought up.

Thus, no declaration from batman’s POV and JonNC’s POV, from the CC that Lutherans are another subcategory of Catholicism.
 
PRmerger said:
Incidentally, not that I need to add any more to the above, as it is, quite simply, incontrovertible, I will say that in addition to batman, a Lutheran, stating that the Catholic Church has not declared that Lutheran = Catholic, here’s* another* affirmation from another Lutheran, JonNC, that the CC has never declared that Lutheran = Catholic:

That is, Jon’s use of the word “would” indicates that it has not happened.

And that he believes that the issue hasn’t even been brought up, in his opinion.
Click to expand...
So you disagree with your Church’s position? 😃 Hey, that’s OK and liberating to some degree. I disagree with my own Synod on some things. I admire your passion as a Catholic.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
So you disagree with your Church’s position? 😃 Hey, that’s OK and liberating to some degree. I disagree with my own Synod on some things. I admire your passion as a Catholic.
Click to expand...
I will give you until tomorrow to rescind the above or you will be reported.

To intentionally misrepresent a members’ position is uncharitable.

It is quite clear that my views are quite consonant with my Church. And I have already told you that I find it offensive to be accused of saying something contrary to my Church.
 
Sorry to offend any Catholics since I consider you my brothers and sisters just like my Catholic daughter-in-laws, grandchildren, aunts/ uncles, cousins,
 
I don’t agree with everything the assistant pastor at my church teaches, but that doesn’t stop me from attending that church. Also, I listen to certain preachers who probably don’t agree with everything my pastor teaches, but it’s not a big deal to me. I don’t nitpick over minor doctrinal differences.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Sorry to offend any Catholics since I consider you my brothers and sisters just like my Catholic daughter-in-laws, grandchildren, aunts/ uncles, cousins,
Click to expand...
No problem. The fact that we come from different churches should not be a barrier for our love for each other as brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ. As there are differences in certain belief between us thereare also many that we share in common. It is a fact that the Christians split from the mother Church and form their own and we cannot deny that. Only when we accept the differences then we will see that there is a need to reconcile and communion as one and that has to be worked out. The Lord prays for all of us to be one; we can only hope that one day it will come to pass.
 
PRmerger said:
And with only 69 posts to your name, cet, you win the dubious honor of being a Godwin’s law referent for under 100 posts!
Click to expand...
It wasn’t mentioned as an insult, it was a valid question. I know the statement was absurd, because no-one in their right mind would follow a priest that does such things… But still people are willing to follow a church that has changed the law of God. Even protestant churches follow the laws that the catholic church changed, that is quite worrying in my opinion.

Kind regards
-c-
 
cet said:
It wasn’t mentioned as an insult, it was a valid question. I know the statement was absurd, because no-one in their right mind would follow a priest that does such things… But still people are willing to follow a church that has changed the law of God. Even protestant churches follow the laws that the catholic church changed, that is quite worrying in my opinion.

Kind regards
-c-
Click to expand...
It seems an insult when you refuse to cap a proper noun when referring to the Catholic Church. I will be careful if I were you with accusation like the Catholic Church changes the laws. 😦 What are the changes? (though admittedly that would be for a different thread).
 
cet said:
It wasn’t mentioned as an insult, it was a valid question. I know the statement was absurd, because no-one in their right mind would follow a priest that does such things… But still people are willing to follow a church that has changed the law of God. Even protestant churches follow the laws that the catholic church changed, that is quite worrying in my opinion.

Kind regards
-c-
Click to expand...
Can you please tell me why God is concerned over whether our “seventh day of rest” is assigned the arbitrary words of Saturday or Sunday.

God said to keep the sabbath as a day of rest and worship. Why is God concerned over which day if the week this sabbath is?

Please not I am not looking for a text describing the sabbath, I am looking for something saying the day of rest and worship HAS to be Saturday and not Sunday or Tuesday or Friday.

Did the Jews have the same calendar as us?

Where does the Bible say our week must start with Sunday? Perhaps Monday is the first day and Sunday the seventh?

Mark 2:27

And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
 
Remember_Me said:
I don’t agree with everything the assistant pastor at my church teaches, but that doesn’t stop me from attending that church. Also, I listen to certain preachers who probably don’t agree with everything my pastor teaches, but it’s not a big deal to me. I don’t nitpick over minor doctrinal differences.
Click to expand...
What about major doctrinal differences - - - by that I mean issues that effect salvation?

Peace
James
 
Jon_S said:
Can you please tell me why God is concerned over whether our “seventh day of rest” is assigned the arbitrary words of Saturday or Sunday.

God said to keep the sabbath as a day of rest and worship. Why is God concerned over which day if the week this sabbath is?

Please not I am not looking for a text describing the sabbath, I am looking for something saying the day of rest and worship HAS to be Saturday and not Sunday or Tuesday or Friday.

Did the Jews have the same calendar as us?

Where does the Bible say our week must start with Sunday? Perhaps Monday is the first day and Sunday the seventh?

Mark 2:27

And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Click to expand...
Jon - The bolded is, to me, the crux of this particular argument.
One of the things that Jesus complained to the Pharisees about was their obsession with “jot and tittle” while ignoring the weightier issues of mercy and justice.

Now - will say that I have no problem with the SDA on the matter of which day to worship. Saturday is fine.
But so is Sunday. The important point is praising God.

For myself I rather like that it is Sunday and the First day of the week (as we reckon it) for this reason. Under the Old covenant rest and praise of God comes last (that is, on the last day). Under the new covenant - directed by the Holy Spirit, the day of rest and praise come first. It is the first thing we do in the new week…I Rather like this.

Just some thoughts…

Peace
James
 
PRmerger said:
It is quite clear to me that I have NOT said anything contrary to my Church. There is nothing in my Church’s teachings which have stated that there is a subgroup of Catholics that can offer any **desuetude **from the Chair of Peter.

Nothing.
Click to expand...
PR,

This one is not in your “Top 10”

For those who wondered.

Definition of DESUETUDE (ˈde-swi-ˌtüd, -ˌtyüd, )
: discontinuance from use or exercise :

🙂
 
Let’s get back to the topic guys,
and uh…lets go easy on the pictures, okay?
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Sorry to offend any Catholics since I consider you my brothers and sisters just like my Catholic daughter-in-laws, grandchildren, aunts/ uncles, cousins,
Click to expand...
Forgiven.

Suffice it to say that there is nothing I have said that is in contradiction to my Church.
 
Remember_Me said:
I don’t agree with everything the assistant pastor at my church teaches, but that doesn’t stop me from attending that church. Also, I listen to certain preachers who probably don’t agree with everything my pastor teaches, but it’s not a big deal to me. I don’t nitpick over minor doctrinal differences.
Click to expand...
Which are the major doctrinal issues, and which are the minor ones? And how do you know?
 
Here’s a Catholic.com Tract on the Sabbath or Sunday. The first Christians met on Sunday, broke bread (The Eucharistic) on Sunday and gathered contributions on Sunday. Colossians below evens addresses the new Christians and tells them not to have anyone pass judgment on them for not observing the sabbath.

Colossians 2
16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. 17 These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

1 Corinthians 16
2 On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that contributions need not be made when I come.

Acts 20
7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread,[a] Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the morrow; and he prolonged his speech until midnight.

The early Christians, those who the apostles taught, recorded that Sunday is the new day of worship for Christians.

“We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead” (Letter of Barnabas 15:6–8 [A.D. 74]).

“[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things * have come to the possession of a new hope, **no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, **on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death” (St. Ignatius, Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).

“But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead” (Justin Martyr, First Apology 67 [A.D. 155])

PnP*
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top