Question for All Scholars Concerning Sabbath

[jmcrae]

The thing is that Yehoshua bar Yosef wasn’t born on December
25th but that day turned into Christmas because it was a pagan holiday.

The pagan holiday was actually on December 20/21; not December 25. Are you seriously suggesting that the early Christians misplaced it by five days? Just how drunk/high/stupid do you think they were?

December 25 is exactly nine months after March 25th, which the Tradition tells us is the date that Mary conceived Him in her womb.

By an interesting coincidence, a woman who gets pregnant for the first time (never been pregnant before) on March 25th will normally give birth on December 24 or 25, depending on how long her labour lasts.

For a discussion of the pagan origin of christmas see:
sabbatarian.com/Paganism/XmasHistory.html

Yeah, I’ve been around that merry-go-round several times already. I actually used to believe that stuff was true, but I’ve since done a bit more research, and I’ve realized that the Fathers of the Early Church weren’t as dumb as some people seem to assume.

 

[chosen_people]

The pagan holiday was actually on December 20/21; not December 25. Are you seriously suggesting that the early Christians misplaced it by five days? Just how drunk/high/stupid do you think they were?

December 25 is exactly nine months after March 25th, which the Tradition tells us is the date that Mary conceived Him in her womb.

By an interesting coincidence, a woman who gets pregnant for the first time (never been pregnant before) on March 25th will normally give birth on December 24 or 25, depending on how long her labour lasts.

Yeah, I’ve been around that merry-go-round several times already. I actually used to believe that stuff was true, but I’ve since done a bit more research, and I’ve realized that the Fathers of the Early Church weren’t as dumb as some people seem to assume.

Christianity is not just a bunch of confused Jews. It indeed started out as a sect of Judaism but unforunately regressed away from absolute monotheism due to Roman paganistic influences making Yehoshua bar Yosef into a god-man, adopting Roman pagan rituals (baptism, drinking the blood and eating the body, kneeling, staues in the place of worship etc.) as well as adopting the pagan holidays (christmas for instance) . Christianity’s growth was the result of bringing the pagan majority closer to monotheism. However that same regression seperated it forever from the Jewish people and true absolute monotheism, a concept which was too difficult for the masses to comprehend and accept. The irony (or perhaps God’s plan?) was that Christian antisemitic persecution of the Jews made the Jews virtually autonomous and outside the realm of Christian society. On the one hand this inured the Jews to outside non Jewish influences. On the other hand it allowed the Jews as a small well educated intelligent homogenous group to further intellectual religious development of talmud, Kaballah, halachah, philsophy etc

 

[chosen_people]

This poses no problem to me whatsoever. What is your concern if I may ask?

see post #102

 

[Hellisreal]

I take it you are a messianic jew?

Christianity is not just a bunch of confused Jews. It indeed started out as a sect of Judaism but unforunately regressed away from absolute monotheism due to Roman paganistic influences making Yehoshua bar Yosef into a god-man, adopting Roman pagan rituals (baptism, drinking the blood and eating the body, kneeling, staues in the place of worship etc.) as well as adopting the pagan holidays (christmas for instance) . Christianity’s growth was the result of bringing the pagan majority closer to monotheism. However that same regression seperated it forever from the Jewish people and true absolute monotheism, a concept which was too difficult for the masses to comprehend and accept. The irony (or perhaps God’s plan?) was that Christian antisemitic persecution of the Jews made the Jews virtually autonomous and outside the realm of Christian society. On the one hand this inured the Jews to outside non Jewish influences. On the other hand it allowed the Jews as a small well educated intelligent homogenous group to further intellectual religious development of talmud, Kaballah, halachah, philsophy etc

 

[Morning_Star15]

Christianity is not just a bunch of confused Jews. It indeed started out as a sect of Judaism but unforunately regressed away from absolute monotheism due to Roman paganistic influences making Yehoshua bar Yosef into a god-man, adopting Roman pagan rituals (baptism, drinking the blood and eating the body, kneeling, staues in the place of worship etc.) as well as adopting the pagan holidays (christmas for instance) . Christianity’s growth was the result of bringing the pagan majority closer to monotheism. However that same regression seperated it forever from the Jewish people and true absolute monotheism, a concept which was too difficult for the masses to comprehend and accept. The irony (or perhaps God’s plan?) was that Christian antisemitic persecution of the Jews made the Jews virtually autonomous and outside the realm of Christian society. On the one hand this inured the Jews to outside non Jewish influences. On the other hand it allowed the Jews as a small well educated intelligent homogenous group to further intellectual religious development of talmud, Kaballah, halachah, philsophy etc

Christianity was monotheistic the last time I checked.

 

[Hellisreal]

Christianity was monotheistic the last time I checked.

Messianic Jews hold the views that chosen people’s post echo’s.

I could be wrong, but Chosen people has not stated their denomination.

This is why I over and over again stated Protestant saturday sabbath believers.

 

[chosen_people]

Messianic Jews hold the views that chosen people’s post echo’s.

I could be wrong, but Chosen people has not stated their denomination.

This is why I over and over again stated Protestant saturday sabbath believers.

I am a Jew, an Israeli and a Zionist however I am not a “messianic Jew” in any sense of the word.

 

[Hellisreal]

I am a Jew, an Israeli and a Zionist however I am not a “messianic Jew” in any sense of the word.

Thanks, I really have a hard time understanding other positions here when its not clear what denomination a person holds.

Can I ask why you think your argument should hold any weight with a Christian?

 

[chosen_people]

Christianity was monotheistic the last time I checked.

Well it definitely advanced the pagans of the Roman empire towards monotheism.

 

[Morning_Star15]

Well it definitely advanced the pagans of the Roman empire towards monotheism.

Yes, by converting them to Christianity, which is a monotheistic religion. Are you trying to say that Christianity is polytheistic?

 

[jmcrae]

Christianity is not just a bunch of confused Jews.

Nobody is suggesting that it is. The Apostles were Jews, but they weren’t confused.

It indeed started out as a sect of Judaism but unforunately regressed away from absolute monotheism due to Roman paganistic influences making Yehoshua bar Yosef into a god-man, adopting Roman pagan rituals (baptism, drinking the blood and eating the body, kneeling, staues in the place of worship etc.) as well as adopting the pagan holidays (christmas for instance) .

They thought He was God long before the Gentiles were brought into the picture - I think they suspected it from the time that He turned the water into wine at Cana. The clincher was the Resurrection.

Christianity’s growth was the result of bringing the pagan majority closer to monotheism. However that same regression seperated it forever from the Jewish people and true absolute monotheism, a concept which was too difficult for the masses to comprehend and accept. The irony (or perhaps God’s plan?) was that Christian antisemitic persecution of the Jews made the Jews virtually autonomous and outside the realm of Christian society. On the one hand this inured the Jews to outside non Jewish influences. On the other hand it allowed the Jews as a small well educated intelligent homogenous group to further intellectual religious development of talmud, Kaballah, halachah, philsophy etc

Of course, there was also that thing with the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, which if I recall correctly, was done by the same people who were throwing the Christians to the lions at around the same period of time - if there was some kind of “pro-pagan” slant to Christianity, they certainly weren’t aware of it, since they treated both the Jews and the Christians in the same way.

 

[chosen_people]

Thanks, I really have a hard time understanding other positions here when its not clear what denomination a person holds.

Can I ask why you think your argument should hold any weight with a Christian?

Obviously discussions concerning religious beliefs of people of different faiths is limited only to presenting and learning about things from a diiferent perspective. No protestant on this forum is suddenly going to accept papal authority. A baptism from my perspective merely gets a person wet. No Catholic is going to agree with me that Christianity is not absolutely monotheistic.

I usually get involved in discussions where Jews and Judaism are mentioned either to correct misconceptions in a post, respond to things that I feel are antisemitic or merely to present an alternate Jewish view for purposes of discussion (e.g. the Jewish belief that it is easier for a gentile to get into the next world than a Jew). On the way I get to learn about other people’s beliefs and attitudes.

 

[Morning_Star15]

No Catholic is going to agree with me that Christianity is not absolutely monotheistic.
.

Why do you mean by “absolutely monotheistic”? A religion is either monotheistic or it isn’t - which means that it either believes in one God, or it doesn’t. So if Christians believe in one God, we’re monotheistic. If we believed in more than one god (which we don’t) we would be polytheistic. No “absolutes” needed. What is “absolute monotheism” supposed to mean?

 

[Hellisreal]

Obviously discussions concerning religious beliefs of people of different faiths is limited only to presenting and learning about things from a diiferent perspective. No protestant on this forum is suddenly going to accept papal authority. A baptism from my perspective merely gets a person wet. No Catholic is going to agree with me that Christianity is not absolutely monotheistic.

I usually get involved in discussions where Jews and Judaism are mentioned either to correct misconceptions in a post, respond to things that I feel are antisemitic or merely to present an alternate Jewish view for purposes of discussion (e.g. the Jewish belief that it is easier for a gentile to get into the next world than a Jew). On the way I get to learn about other people’s beliefs and attitudes.

I dont mind any alternate points of view. I do hope you are not trying to promote Judaism here without informing the Christians of the laws a convert to Judaism would have to abide by as such.

From the understanding I get from the Original Post, no one is disputing the fact that the Jews held the Sabbath. Which we are aware was held on a Saturday.

Therefore, I have to wonder if your comments here are to promote Judaism.

 

[chosen_people]

Nobody is suggesting that it is. The Apostles were Jews, but they weren’t confused.

They thought He was God long before the Gentiles were brought into the picture - I think they suspected it from the time that He turned the water into wine at Cana. The clincher was the Resurrection.

Of course, there was also that thing with the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, which if I recall correctly, was done by the same people who were throwing the Christians to the lions at around the same period of time - if there was some kind of “pro-pagan” slant to Christianity, they certainly weren’t aware of it, since they treated both the Jews and the Christians in the same way.

I believe your supposition that the beliefs and attitudes of the Jewish sect which followed the teachings of Yehoshua bar Yosef during and in the immediate years following his death and Christianity at the time of Constantine are one and the same is incorrect. During that time frame Christianity developed in ways that made it irreconciable with the Jewish concept of absolute monotheism including the concept that Yehoshua bar Yosef was God in human form walking on earth.

 

[jmcrae]

I believe your supposition that the beliefs and attitudes of the Jewish sect which followed the teachings of Yehoshua bar Yosef during and in the immediate years following his death and Christianity at the time of Constantine are one and the same is incorrect.

By 110 AD, the Church had developed into the same structure that we continue to see today, with certain disciplinary difference, but a Catholic living in 110 AD would be able to come to the 21 century without too much culture shock, and the reverse would also be true - a 21st century Catholic would not find it difficult to make himself at home in the Church of 110 AD. This Church was built upon the teachings of Christ and the Apostles.

During that time frame Christianity developed in ways that made it irreconciable with the Jewish concept of absolute monotheism including the concept that Yehoshua bar Yosef was God in human form walking on earth.

He was/is both fully God, and fully human - God did not disguise Himself as a human being; rather, He became a human being (a subtle but very important distinction). This was in order to complete the process that was begun at the Creation, when He created human beings in His own image.

 

[Hellisreal]

I believe your supposition that the beliefs and attitudes of the Jewish sect which followed the teachings of Yehoshua bar Yosef during and in the immediate years following his death and Christianity at the time of Constantine are one and the same is incorrect. During that time frame Christianity developed in ways that made it irreconciable with the Jewish concept of absolute monotheism including the concept that Yehoshua bar Yosef was God in human form walking on earth.

Of course. And this “development” was God in the flesh. Constantine had not a thing to do with it. But, again if I were Jewish I would hold tight to that concept as well as the concept of saturday sabbath.

After all, Jesus Christ was a blasphemer. He claimed to be God. Is this not why he was charged and crucifyed?

Or is there another view?

 

[chosen_people]

I dont mind any alternate points of view. I do hope you are not trying to promote Judaism here without informing the Christians of the laws a convert to Judaism would have to abide by as such.

From the understanding I get from the Original Post, no one is disputing the fact that the Jews held the Sabbath. Which we are aware was held on a Saturday.

Therefore, I have to wonder if your comments here are to promote Judaism.

Well here’s another thing about Judaism that’s different than Christianity. We don’t have any wish or need to promote (or try to convert) anyone to our religion. No offence but that is definitely **not ** my intention nor has it ever been my intention.

 

[jmcrae]

Of course. And this “development” was God in the flesh. Constantine had not a thing to do with it. But, again if I were Jewish I would hold tight to that concept as well as the concept of saturday sabbath.

After all, Jesus Christ was a blasphemer. He claimed to be God. Is this not why he was charged and crucifyed?

Or is there another view?

That’s a good point. You can’t, on the one hand, crucify Jesus for claiming to be God, and then on the other hand, claim that the idea of His divinity didn’t come into Church teaching until many centuries later. Either nobody including Himself thought that He was God during his lifetime (in which case, why crucify Him?) or else He really did claim to be God, in which case, the crucfixion makes a lot more sense (since it would have seemed like blasphemy to the Jews) - and so does the Resurrection (turns out it wasn’t blasphemy, after all - He really is God!!).

 

[Hellisreal]

I like you a lot jmcrae.

God bless you for being able to fine tune my thoughts to a sharp point!

That’s a good point. You can’t, on the one hand, crucify Jesus for claiming to be God, and then on the other hand, claim that the idea of His divinity didn’t come into Church teaching until many centuries later. Either nobody including Himself thought that He was God during his lifetime (in which case, why crucify Him?) or else He really did claim to be God, in which case, the crucfixion makes a lot more sense (since it would have seemed like blasphemy to the Jews) - and so does the Resurrection (turns out it wasn’t blasphemy, after all - He really is God!!).