Question for All Scholars Concerning Sabbath

[cestusdei]

pedja, my point was that your question makes the assumption that all beliefs must be found explicitly in the Bible. In other words sola scriptura. But that is an unproven assumption. Nowhere does the Bible say it alone is authoritative. So your question is asking me to accept your unbiblical way of thinking without discussion. I won’t do that. If you want to argue sola scriptura be my guest, but you have to prove your assumption.

I argue that the Apostolic Tradition and yes the Bible teach we should worship on the Lord’s Day. The verses and quotes are already on this thread, see Dan Marsh’s post.

 

[pedja]

Is there another first day of the week? Monday, Tuesday ??

So they met Sunday morning, yea? And they had many lights on? And Paul was preaching the whole morning, afternoon, evening, up till midnight (Sunday to Monday)? And after midnight, on Monday, they were breaking bread? Is that how you interpret the text?

 

[MrStain]

So Paul then was talking from Sunday morning till midnight? And they also had candles on all the time? And they broke the bread after midnight?!

Not sure what you are getting at with this?

 

[pedja]

pedja, my point was that your question makes the assumption that all beliefs must be found explicitly in the Bible. In other words sola scriptura. But that is an unproven assumption. Nowhere does the Bible say it alone is authoritative. So your question is asking me to accept your unbiblical way of thinking without discussion. I won’t do that. If you want to argue sola scriptura be my guest, but you have to prove your assumption.

I argue that the Apostolic Tradition and yes the Bible teach we should worship on the Lord’s Day. The verses and quotes are already on this thread, see Dan Marsh’s post.

Fine, but I dont believe in any Apostolic Tradition, I only believe in the Bible and what I was saying is that there is no Biblical foundation for the change of the day of worship.

 

[MrStain]

So they met Sunday morning, yea? And they had many lights on? And Paul was preaching the whole morning, afternoon, evening, up till midnight (Sunday to Monday)? And after midnight, on Monday, they were breaking bread? Is that how you interpret the text?

OK… Spare me the questions and just tell me what day is the “first day of the week” in your opinion.?

ok… I’ll have to check back later. It’s time to take the family out to dinner my friends.

May the peace of the Lord be with you all!

 

[pedja]

Not sure what you are getting at with this?

Well you posted “And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread”, and that is now the proof that the day of worship has officialy been changed or what?

My point is they didnt even meet on Sunday morning but on a Sabbath, the stayed late and after the sunset a new day begun, the first day of the week, the Sunday- but according to our modern time that was probably Saturday around 18:00. (whenever sunset was, doesnt matter). So that means that they didnt meet on Sunday to break bread, but on a Saturday.

 

[pedja]

OK… Spare me the questions and just tell me what day is the “first day of the week” in your opinion.?

ok… I’ll have to check back later. It’s time to take the family out to dinner my friends.

May the peace of the Lord be with you all!

The first day of the week, in Luka`s time, started on Saturday evening after sunset.

 

[pedja]

In the New Testament there are passages that say that they worshiped on the Lord’s Day.

Where?

The Adventist are keeping the Jewish Sabbath, not the Christian Sabbath.

As I said, there is no Jewish Sabbath. Was Moses Jewish?

 

[cestusdei]

Fine, but I dont believe in any Apostolic Tradition, I only believe in the Bible and what I was saying is that there is no Biblical foundation for the change of the day of worship.

The Bible IS Apostolic Tradition. Who decided what books would go in it? Who decided which ones had authority? The Catholic Church. So whether you like it or not you accept Tradition from a Church that worships on Sunday.

 

[pedja]

The Bible IS Apostolic Tradition. Who decided what books would go in it? Who decided which ones had authority? The Catholic Church. So whether you like it or not you accept Tradition from a Church that worships on Sunday.

oh yea, a church which doesn’t even know how to correctly interpret the pieces they themselves put together

 

[deb216]

I know why Catholics worship on Sunday. I do not know why Protestants do.

We are commanded to keep holy the Sabbath Day. I won’t play with words. The Sabbath begins at sunset on Friday and continues to sunset on Saturday. That is the Sabbath kept by Jews and Sabbath keepers; the seventh day. It has always been known which day was the first and which was the seventh and which was the eighth.

Led by scripture, tradition and the Holy Spirit, the Catholic Church, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day of worship from Sabbath to Sunday; the Lord’s Day. I am okay with this! I know that the Pope is the Vicar of Peter. I know that the Pope holds the Keys to the Kingdom. That means the Church had the authority, authority granted to Peter by Christ, Himself, to change the day of worship to Sunday.

If Protestants deny the authority of the Pope then they should worship on the Sabbath. Without authority, it could not have been changed. The Bible states that Sabbath worship is a perpetual covenant. Protestants who worship on Sunday do not, and have never, honored the commandment to keep holy the Sabbath Day.

If they accept the authority of the Pope to change the day of worship from the Sabbath to the Lord’s Day then they should be Catholic.

To say that the Pope has no authority and then to follow the tradition of the Catholic Church… well, it makes absolutely no sense. I know where the Bible supports Sunday worship. That isn’t an issue. But I challenge any non-Catholic Christian to show me, sola scriptura, where the Bible releases them from the Commandment to Keep Holy the Sabbath Day.

Just so you know, its not there.

 

[St_Violet]

sabbath begins on friday sunset and ends until saturday sunset, after saturday sunset a new day begins which is sunday, between saturday sunset to sunday sunset is the first day,but that was biblical times, as far as I am aware there is Mass between the time of saturday sunset to sunday sunset, which is within the new day. so I really don’t know where you guys are going with this but it isn’t the first time I have encountered this attack from a seventh day adventist.

I guess I do not have to add that early church fathers asked the church body to come together on the first day instead of the sabbath,

but I should admit, pedja is very wise to atleast admit that it was The Catholic Church who put the bible together, but I don’t see how he feels his seventhday adventist church has a more valid interpretation of a bible that the catholic church put together for them.

 

[TarlsQtr]

but I should admit, pedja is very wise to atleast admit that it was The Catholic Church who put the bible together, but I don’t see how he feels his seventhday adventist church has a more valid interpretation of a bible that the catholic church put together for them.

This has always been a problem for me. On one hand, we [Catholics] are the “Apostate Church of the Beast”. Yet, on the other hand, they feel it perfectly fine to worship from a book that the “Apostate Church of the Beast” assembled and canonized. Does that make ANY sense?

Compared to that, even the Mormons and JWs look logically consistent.

Jeff

 

[Yerusalyim]

If Paul said that he was wrong. That’s not how Judaism works or worked.

I must apologize, this was actually James who wrote this, not Paul, James wrote,

10
For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to all of it.
11
For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not kill.” Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law.

Paul wrote something similar in Galations 3:

For all who depend on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not persevere in doing all the things written in the book of the law.”

And yes, I’m aware this is not how JUDAISM works, the point in James and Galations is that we as Christians who were never part of the Mosaic Covenant are not bound by the Mosaic law (which includes the ten commandments, heros) so that if you seek to be justified in observing part of the Law (sabbath observance) but violate ANY of the Other 613 (Fast of Rosh Hasahanah, contact with cadavars with no purification ritual, etc…you become a law breaker, and your observance of the Sabbath is meaningless.

Christ took two laws out of the 613 and told us they were the important ones. Jesus says in Matthew 22:

When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together,
35
and one of them [a scholar of the law] 20 tested him by asking,
36
“Teacher, 21 which commandment in the law is the greatest?”
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He said to him, 22 “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
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This is the greatest and the first commandment.
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The second is like it: 23 You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
40
24 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”

These are direct quotes from the Mosaic law. These are the two we observe and fulfill the just requirements of the law.

The Sabbath commandement is not part of the Mosaic law, it`s part of the 10 commandments written by God himself.

Ped, ya need to study just a little bit more, the 10 Commandments are part of the 613 Commandments…given to the Jews, not the Gentiles. I would challenge you to show me scripturally or from Sacred Tradition where the 613 Commandments (which the 10 Commandments are a part of) were given to ALL humanity…better yet, show me a command from God that says Sabbath observance is for ALL humanity.

Whether looking at just the 10 commandments, or all 613 Commandments found in the Hebrew Scriptures that are collectively (including the big 10) called the Mosaic Law what must be understood and is constantly forgotten by our 7th day friends, is that the 10, and the 613 as a whole were given to the people of ISRAEL as part of the covenant.

The covenant God established with ALL humanity is found in Genesis CH 9 and states:

God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them: “Be fertile and multiply and fill the earth.
2
Dread fear of you shall come upon all the animals of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon all the creatures that move about on the ground and all the fishes of the sea; into your power they are delivered.
3
1 Every creature that is alive shall be yours to eat; I give them all to you as I did the green plants.
4
2 Only flesh with its lifeblood still in it you shall not eat.
5
For your own lifeblood, too, I will demand an accounting: from every animal I will demand it, and from man in regard to his fellow man I will demand an accounting for human life.
6
If anyone sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; For in the image of God has man been made.
7
Be fertile, then, and multiply; abound on earth and subdue it.”
8
God said to Noah and to his sons with him:
9
“See, I am now establishing my covenant with you and your descendants after you
10
and with every living creature that was with you: all the birds, and the various tame and wild animals that were with you and came out of the ark.
11
I will establish my covenant with you, that never again shall all bodily creatures be destroyed by the waters of a flood; there shall not be another flood to devastate the earth.”

 

[Valke2]

The command to love God with all of your soul, all of your heart and all of your might was always known to mean to keep all the commandments. So if Jesus said this was one of the most important commandments, it makes sense since it would require one to keep the rest of the commandments.

And what about the rest of it?

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your might. And these words which I command you this day shall be on your heart. You shall teach them to your children, and you shall speak of them when you sit in your house and when you walk on the way, when you lie down and when you rise up. You shall bind them as a sign upon your arm, and they shall be for a reminder between your eyes. And you shall write them upon the doorposts of your house and upon your gates.

 

[cestusdei]

oh yea, a church which doesn’t even know how to correctly interpret the pieces they themselves put together

And you do? The sda’s were founded on incorrect interpretations. Remember 1843 and 1844?

 

[servus]

The Bible IS Apostolic Tradition. Who decided what books would go in it? Who decided which ones had authority? The Catholic Church. So whether you like it or not you accept Tradition from a Church that worships on Sunday.

That is an opinion. The “Catholic” (Universal) Church which “put the Bible together” is not the same institution as the Roman Catholic Church today.

The Bible was finished when each respective book and letter was completed. Only when the canon accepted by all Christians (not just Roman Christians) from of old was challenged, did the Institutional Churches give thier opinion on what books constitue the accepted canon.

This, I believe, you will find to be the most objective opinion.

 

[servus]

And you do? The sda’s were founded on incorrect interpretations. Remember 1843 and 1844?

Every Church which claims Christ as Lord can trace its history to Christ, and can truly claim Christ as its founder.

SDA’s are a denomination of Christ’s Universal Church. 1843 and 1844 were mistakes, but Adventist’s admit so. It is not because of pride, and fear of being wrong that they continue to hold these dates to be important. It is because they really believe that something important happened in 1844.

The Adventist Church is to be commended in my opinion because they are the one Church which has not sided with Biblical critics by accepting an allegorical interpretation of Daniel 8. Think about it. Daniel 8 either concerns Antiochus, or something we have not understood as of yet, and the Adventists are the only ones trying to understand it. If it is about Antiochus, you must cut the 2300 days in half, and then shorten it still more to make it fit the desecration he was responsible for. You get into the act of messing witht he date and dates to make it fit.

-Servus

 

[St_Violet]

That is an opinion. The “Catholic” (Universal) Church which “put the Bible together” is not the same institution as the Roman Catholic Church today.

The Bible was finished when each respective book and letter was completed. Only when the canon accepted by all Christians (not just Roman Christians) from of old was challenged, did the Institutional Churches give thier opinion on what books constitue the accepted canon.

This, I believe, you will find to be the most objective opinion.

If the Roman Catholic Church is not the same institution, then how do you think the Roman Catholic Church became instituationalized.
( for my fellow catholics correct me if I am wrong), History has told me that because of the rapid growth of christianity, the early church fathers decided to centralize Christianity in order to survive, was it not centralized in Rome?

 

[jmcrae]

So they met Sunday morning, yea? And they had many lights on? And Paul was preaching the whole morning, afternoon, evening, up till midnight (Sunday to Monday)? And after midnight, on Monday, they were breaking bread? Is that how you interpret the text?

Yes. The reason is that the reading of Scripture and the preaching comes first, and then the Consecration, and then the distribution of the Eucharist.

In this particular case, the homily went on all day and all night, and they didn’t get to the Liturgy of the Eucharist until the following morning (Monday).

The text is clear. Even if it were a different day of the week, so what? But it states plainly that it was the first day of the week, which in their counting was Sunday.