Question for All Scholars Concerning Sabbath

[Hellisreal]

Well here’s another thing about Judaism that’s different than Christianity. We don’t have any wish or need to promote (or try to convert) anyone to our religion. No offence but that is definitely **not ** my intention nor has it ever been my intention.

I am sure its not. Especially since we all know you are only here to clarify where we are wrong, yet you are not here to convert…

 

[chosen_people]

Of course. And this “development” was God in the flesh. Constantine had not a thing to do with it. But, again if I were Jewish I would hold tight to that concept as well as the concept of saturday sabbath.

After all, Jesus Christ was a blasphemer. He claimed to be God. Is this not why he was charged and crucifyed?

Or is there another view?

Actually Yehoshua bar Yosef to the best of my recollection never unequivocably stated that he was God during his lifetime. The Romans crucified Yehoshua bar Yosef due to his political influence and their fear of an uprising (some 40 years later a major Jewish uprising did occur - in 3 seperate uprisings between 70c.e.-135 c.e. some one million seven hundred and fifty thousand Jews died in uprisings against the Romans and tens of thousands were sold into slavery). He would not be seen as a “blasphemer” claiming to be God who needed to be eliminated but as a rebel ( King of the Jews not God of the Jews) who could potentially undermine Roman authority.

 

[chosen_people]

That’s a good point. You can’t, on the one hand, crucify Jesus for claiming to be God, and then on the other hand, claim that the idea of His divinity didn’t come into Church teaching until many centuries later. Either nobody including Himself thought that He was God during his lifetime (in which case, why crucify Him?) or else He really did claim to be God, in which case, the crucfixion makes a lot more sense (since it would have seemed like blasphemy to the Jews) - and so does the Resurrection (turns out it wasn’t blasphemy, after all - He really is God!!).

see post #122

 

[Hellisreal]

Did Jesus deny being God? Did he say NO! I am not God???

Actually Yehoshua bar Yosef to the best of my recollection never unequivocably stated that he was God during his lifetime. The Romans crucified Yehoshua bar Yosef due to his political influence and their fear of an uprising (some 40 years later a major Jewish uprising did occur - in 3 seperate uprisings between 70c.e.-135 c.e. some one million seven hundred and fifty thousand Jews died in uprisings against the Romans and tens of thousands were sold into slavery). He would not be seen as a “blasphemer” claiming to be God who needed to be eliminated but as a rebel ( King of the Jews not God of the Jews) who could potentially undermine Roman authority.

 

[Hellisreal]

see post #122

Saw it, and saw it before today believe it or not.

 

[Hellisreal]

I guess Jesus was simply an idiot. He wanted to be scourged and crucifyed and all he had to do was DENY he was GOD.

 

[chosen_people]

I am sure its not. Especially since we all know you are only here to clarify where we are wrong, yet you are not here to convert…

I am sure your beliefs are secure enough to withstand any and all of my posts. Obviously any view I hold contrary to your beliefs is “wrong” in your view. At any rate to prevent having on my concience the possibility of you seeking out your local rabbi I will log off.

Shalom and God bless

 

[Hellisreal]

I am sure your beliefs are secure enough to withstand any and all of my posts. Obviously any view I hold contrary to your beliefs is “wrong” in your view. At any rate to prevent having on my concience the possibility of you seeking out your local rabbi I will log off.

Shalom and God bless

God bless you and yours also.

Nice talking with you.

 

[jmcrae]

Actually Yehoshua bar Yosef to the best of my recollection never unequivocably stated that he was God during his lifetime.

Mark 14:60-65; 15:1-2

60 And the high priest rising up in the midst, asked Jesus, saying: Answerest thou nothing to the things that are laid to thy charge by these men?

61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said to him: Art thou the Christ the Son of the blessed God?

62 And Jesus said to him: **I AM.** And you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God, and coming with the clouds of heaven.

63 Then the high priest rending his garments, saith: What need we any further witnesses?

64 You have heard the blasphemy. What think you? Who all condemned him to be guilty of death.

65 And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him: Prophesy: and the servants struck him with the palms of their hands.

...]

Mark 15
1 And straightway in the morning, the chief priests holding a consultation with the ancients and the scribes and the whole council, binding Jesus, led him away, and delivered him to Pilate.

2 And Pilate asked him: Art thou the king of the Jews? But he answering, saith to him: Thou sayest it.

The Romans crucified Yehoshua bar Yosef due to his political influence and their fear of an uprising (some 40 years later a major Jewish uprising did occur - in 3 seperate uprisings between 70c.e.-135 c.e. some one million seven hundred and fifty thousand Jews died in uprisings against the Romans and tens of thousands were sold into slavery). He would not be seen as a “blasphemer” claiming to be God who needed to be eliminated but as a rebel ( King of the Jews not God of the Jews) who could potentially undermine Roman authority.

What reason did the Jews have for turning Him over to the Roman authorities, and causing them to believe that He was going to cause an uprising? (What was their motivation?)

 

[Hellisreal]

I guess Jesus was simply an idiot. He wanted to be scourged and crucifyed and all he had to do was DENY he was GOD.

I rest my case.

 

[Morning_Star15]

Actually Yehoshua bar Yosef to the best of my recollection never unequivocably stated that he was God during his lifetime.

He stated thus in John 8:56-59 (it starts with Jesus talking to a group of Jews): “‘Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was glad.’ The Jews then said to him, ‘You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?’ Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.’ So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.”

Jesus calls himself “I AM”, which was obviously understood by the Jews as a declaration that He was calling Himself God (why else would they try to stone Him to death, and if He wasn’t saying He was God, why didn’t He clear up that misunderstanding?). There are other instances in the Gospels where Jesus says He is God, but I think this is the best example, both because of His directness and because of the immediate reaction of the Jews towards what He said.

The Romans crucified Yehoshua bar Yosef due to his political influence and their fear of an uprising (some 40 years later a major Jewish uprising did occur - in 3 seperate uprisings between 70c.e.-135 c.e. some one million seven hundred and fifty thousand Jews died in uprisings against the Romans and tens of thousands were sold into slavery). He would not be seen as a “blasphemer” claiming to be God who needed to be eliminated but as a rebel ( King of the Jews not God of the Jews) who could potentially undermine Roman authority.

Yeah, but who was it that brought Jesus to the Romans in the first place? He was first accused by the Jews, and I’m sure that they didn’t hand Him over to the Romans for execution because they were concerned about the welfare of the Roman Empire. They obviously had a problem with Him and His teachings, so if it wasn’t that He was claiming to be God, what was it?

 

[Hellisreal]

Yeah, but who was it that brought Jesus to the Romans in the first place? He was first accused by the Jews, and I’m sure that they didn’t hand Him over to the Romans for execution because they were concerned about the welfare of the Roman Empire. They obviously had a problem with Him and His teachings, so if it wasn’t that He was claiming to be God, what was it?

This is true, but not “PC” in this day and age.

Evangelicals come close to worshipping Jews. Yet they dont see why we venerate Mary.

The truth is there and yet we cant be this blunt about it.

Oh well.

 

[Morning_Star15]

This is true, but not “PC” in this day and age.

Evangelicals come close to worshipping Jews. Yet they dont see why we venerate Mary.

The truth is there and yet we cant be this blunt about it.

Oh well.

I didn’t mean to say anything against the Jews - I apologize if I came across sounding mean. I know that Jesus died for all of our sins, so I’m not placing the responsibility for the Crucifixion solely on the Jews.

I was just pointing out that the Jews had some concerns about Jesus’ teachings - serious enough concerns to bring them to the Roman authorities. Their concerns may very well have been legitimate (if they believed He was blaspheming, etc.), but I don’t buy that this was, as Chosen People said, simply a matter of the Romans being concerned about Him being a rebel leader. I was just asking Chosen People why the Jews would have been concerned about Jesus if it wasn’t because He claimed to be God.

 

[Hellisreal]

We cant blame the Jewish people no. But the charge was blasphemy.

Lets not forget the facts here.

I didn’t mean to say anything against the Jews - I apologize if I came across sounding mean. I know that Jesus died for all of our sins, so I’m not placing the responsibility for the Crucifixion solely on the Jews.

I was just pointing out that the Jews had some concerns about Jesus’ teachings - serious enough concerns to bring them to the Roman authorities. Their concerns may very well have been legitimate (if they believed He was blaspheming, etc.), but I don’t buy that this was, as Chosen People said, simply a matter of the Romans being concerned about Him being a rebel leader. I was just asking Chosen People why the Jews would have been concerned about Jesus if it wasn’t because He claimed to be God.

 

[pedja]

Your definition of who was or is a Jew is not in the least confusing. It is merely lacking in any historical, religious or logical validity.

I dont think you understood what I was saying. To you everything is the same, sons of Israel, Hebrews, Semites, Jews…

However you want to twist and turn, the ten commandments and the torah were given by God to the Jewish people at sinai.

I think the 10 comm. were given to the whole mankind, not only to the Hebrews, because they existed **before **they were given to Moses at Sinai!

The concept of the sabbath was revolutionary. A group of former slaves expounding (or accepting from God) the idea of a day of rest. (Okay God rested after creating the world but here were talking about man resting from his daily work)

You are wrong here. The Sabbath was known to the Hebrews **before **they became slaves in Egypt.

Jews celebrate the sabbath on the day set forth by God. Certain Christians made sunday into the sabbath and muslims made friday into the sabbath (first and foremost in my opinion to differentiate their religions from Judaism- ironically Christianity continued this process of differention form Judaism by adopting pagan dates for its other holidays).

I agree with this part, you only forgot to mention that there are also Christians who are keeping the Sabbath.

Perhaps the important thing is not the day they mark the sabbath but the acceptance of the concept of sabbath by these two other religions.

 

[St_Violet]

I won’t ever understand why the seventh day adventist believe that people before the time of Moses kept the Sabbath such as Adam, Abraham, Issac etc, no where does it even indicate that they did, especially adam he lived in a garden where everything was perfect everyday for adam was rest, He didn’t need a sabbath, like the 24/7 slaves Moses freed.God didn’t give Adam any laws but not to eat from the garden and why don’t they just atleast Understand that it was our early church fathers before Christianity became centralized, asked us to no longer keep the sabbath, such fathers like Ignatius of Antioch a student of One of Jesus’s very own Apostle John.

 

[jmcrae]

I dont think you understood what I was saying. To you everything is the same, sons of Israel, Hebrews, Semites, Jews…

The Israelites came to be known as “Jews” after they settled in the promised land, because the majority of those who survived the trip were of the tribe of Judah.

I think the 10 comm. were given to the whole mankind, not only to the Hebrews, because they existed **before **they were given to Moses at Sinai!

Do you have a Scripture reference for that? Where in Genesis is there any reference to the 10 Commandments?

You are wrong here. The Sabbath was known to the Hebrews **before **they became slaves in Egypt.

Do you have a Scripture reference for that? Where in Genesis is there any reference to the Sabbath?

 

[Yerusalyim]

I guess Jesus was simply an idiot. He wanted to be scourged and crucifyed and all he had to do was DENY he was GOD.

This is patently false regardless of where you stand on the divinty of Christ (which I accept). Jesus was scourged and crucified because the Roman Procurator feared an uprising…the Jewish leaders turned Jesus over to Pilate because he A) challenged their authority, and B) they feared an uprising.

I think the 10 comm. were given to the whole mankind, not only to the Hebrews, because they existed before they were given to Moses at Sinai!

The 10 Commandments…in fact ALL 613 Commandments were given to the Israelites alone…not to gentiles. The Noahide Covenant was given to all mankind.

You are wrong here. The Sabbath was known to the Hebrews before they became slaves in Egypt.

Sabbath Observance in and of itself is reserved for the Jews…though the first mention of the 7th day being Holy is in Genesis.

 

[pedja]

The 10 Commandments…in fact ALL 613 Commandments were given to the Israelites alone…not to gentiles. The Noahide Covenant was given to all mankind.

Where`s the scriptural evidence for this?

Sabbath Observance in and of itself is reserved for the Jews…though the first mention of the 7th day being Holy is in Genesis.

Where`s the scriptural evidence for this?

The Sabbath was created before Jews even existed.

 

[pedja]

The Israelites came to be known as “Jews” after they settled in the promised land, because the majority of those who survived the trip were of the tribe of Judah.

Do you have a Scripture reference for that? Where in Genesis is there any reference to the 10 Commandments?

Do you have a Scripture reference for that? Where in Genesis is there any reference to the Sabbath?

“But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God” (Ex. 20,10). Sabbath of the Lord, not Sabbath of the Jews.

*“And he said unto them, The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath” *(Mark 2,27) Made for man, not for Jews only!

“**If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on **my holy day…” (Is. 58,13) God`s holy day, not Jewish holy day.

The Sabbath was kept **before **the 10 commandments were given- read Exodus 16.

Another question: Genesis 26, 5 says: "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

What laws and commandments did Abraham keep when the 10 commandments were given many generations later??