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jmcrae
Guest
The Noahide Covenant, together with the commandments that God revealed to him personally, the Abrahamic Covenant.
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pedja
Guest
Can you back that up with scripture somehow?! What Noahide Covenant did Abraham had to keep? What laws?!
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6YRSHOME
Guest
When Moses came down to give the laws to the people He established his covenant with the Isralites. This is who He gave His law to. God made it clear that they were entering into a special exclusive realationship with Him. The Sabbath was not meant for everyone, it was given to His chosen people as a sign of His covenant between Him and Isreal.
Chapter 19
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In the third month after their departure from the land of Egypt, on its first day, the Israelites came to the desert of Sinai.
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After the journey from Rephidim to the desert of Sinai, they pitched camp. While Israel was encamped here in front of the mountain,
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Moses went up the mountain to God. Then the LORD called to him and said, "Thus shall you say to the house of Jacob;
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tell the Israelites: You have seen for yourselves how I treated the Egyptians and how I bore you up on eagle wings and brought you here to myself.
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**Therefore, if you hearken to my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my special possession, dearer to me than all other people, though all the earth is mine. **
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1 You shall be to me a kingdom of priests, a holy nation. That is what you must tell the Israelites."
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So Moses went and summoned the elders of the people. When he set before them all that the LORD had ordered him to tell them,
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the people all answered together, “Everything the LORD has said, we will do.” Then Moses brought back to the LORD the response of the people.
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The LORD also told him, “I am coming to you in a dense cloud, so that when the people hear me speaking with you, they may always have faith in you also.” When Moses, then, had reported to the LORD the response of the people,
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the LORD added, "Go to the people and have them sanctify themselves today and tomorrow. Make them wash their garments
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and be ready for the third day; for on the third day the LORD will come down on Mount Sinai before the eyes of all the people.
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Set limits for the people all around the mountain, and tell them: Take care not to go up the mountain, or even to touch its base. If anyone touches the mountain, he must be put to death.
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No hand shall touch him; he must be stoned to death or killed with arrows. Such a one, man or beast, must not be allowed to live. Only when the ram’s horn resounds may they go up to the mountain."
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Then Moses came down from the mountain to the people and had them sanctify themselves and wash their garments.
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He warned them, “Be ready for the third day. Have no intercourse with any woman.”
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On the morning of the third day there were peals of thunder and lightning, and a heavy cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast, so that all the people in the camp trembled.
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But Moses led the people out of the camp to meet God, and they stationed themselves at the foot of the mountain.
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Mount Sinai was all wrapped in smoke, for the LORD came down upon it in fire. The smoke rose from it as though from a furnace, and the whole mountain trembled violently.
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The trumpet blast grew louder and louder, while Moses was speaking and God answering him with thunder.
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When the LORD came down to the top of Mount Sinai, he summoned Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up to him.
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Then the LORD told Moses, "Go down and warn the people not to break through toward the LORD in order to see him; otherwise many of them will be struck down.
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The priests, too, who approach the LORD must sanctify themselves; else he will vent his anger upon them."
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Moses said to the LORD, “The people cannot go up to Mount Sinai, for you yourself warned us to set limits around the mountain to make it sacred.”
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The LORD repeated, “Go down now! Then come up again along with Aaron. But the priests and the people must not break through to come up to the LORD; else he will vent his anger upon them.”
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So Moses went down to the people and told them this.
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SDA2RC
Guest
Pedja, You forgot some of the NEW TESTAMENT quotes about the Mosaic Law… hope this helps
(Heb 8:13 NASB) When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
(Col 2:16 NASB) Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day–
(Col 2:17 NASB) things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
(Rom 10:4 NASB) **For Christ is the end of the law **for righteousness to everyone who believes.
(Rom 13:8 NASB) Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
(Rom 13:10 NASB) Love does no wrong to a neighbor; love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.
(Gal 3:24 NASB) Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.
(Gal 3:25 NASB) But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
(Gal 5:14 NASB) For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
(Gal 5:18 NASB) But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
(Eph 2:14 NASB) For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
(Eph 2:15 NASB) by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
(Eph 2:16 NASB) and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
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SDA2RC
Guest
If you take this literally as meaning for ALL men, rather than to Christ’s audience (the Jews) do you also understand this verse to teach that it is for all men, but not women? (after all… it only says men). It can get really ridiculous if you ignore the context of the passage, which is what you have done with this passage.
Pedja, Christ’s ministry was primarily to the Jews, his teachings were for the Jews, and his audience was the Jews… to try to rip this out of its context and apply it to all men in the face of the rest of the NT teachings about the law, is not consistent.
If I am preaching in your church and I ask all men to please stand, am I talking to all the men of the world, or am I talking to all those in MY AUDIENCE? Who was Jesus talking to in this verse, who was his audience?
In Matthew 8:4, Christ commands a man to offer a sacrifice in the temple as commanded in the Law of Moses, does this still apply to us today too? After all, Christ was teaching the Jews (and what I assume is your interpretation, us, to follow the sacrificial laws). If you don’t apply this text to yourself as having to offer Mosaic sacrifices, then likewise, you must also realize the audience in Mark 2.
(1 John 3:23 NASB) And this is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
(1 John 3:24 NASB) And the one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And we know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
This is God’s commandment, this is the mark of those who keep the commandment of Christ and obey the Spirit of Prophecy. Neither Christ nor his apostles EVER commanded a Christian, (i.e. after the resurrection of Christ) to keep the Jewish Sabbath, nor have the successors of the Apostles commanded us to do that today.
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pedja
Guest
Throwing out a bunch of random verses out of any context is not really going to help you solving the case. I mean especially quoting Colossians, or Romans, please! Read the whole Colossians, understand what the problem was Paul was addressing and then please tell me how in the world would you ever come to the conlusion that the Sabbath day was abolished (or replaced).Pedja, You forgot some of the NEW TESTAMENT quotes about the Mosaic Law… hope this helps
(Heb 8:13 NASB) When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
(Col 2:16 NASB) Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day–
(Col 2:17 NASB) things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
(Rom 10:4 NASB) **For Christ is the end of the law **for righteousness to everyone who believes.
(Rom 13:8 NASB) Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
(Rom 13:10 NASB) Love does no wrong to a neighbor; love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.
(Gal 3:24 NASB) Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.
(Gal 3:25 NASB) But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
(Gal 5:14 NASB) For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
(Gal 5:18 NASB) But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
(Eph 2:14 NASB) For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
(Eph 2:15 NASB) by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
(Eph 2:16 NASB) and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
Or all that stuff from Romans, how come you didnt mention the verses where Paul clearly states that the law is good and that it **should be **kept!
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Yerusalyim
Guest
Ped…the “scriptural evidence” you keep asking for about everything…what is your basis for relying only on scripture? Remember, scripture does not define the Church…the Church defined scripture…
But, to answer your question as to where the scriptural evidence is that the 613 Commandments were given only to the Israelites…is all over the bible…see, the covenant upon which the 613 Commandments are a part was a covenant between God and the Israelites…to include Sabbath Observance.
Again…the covenant God has with ALL MANKIND is the Noahide Covenant.
But, to answer your question as to where the scriptural evidence is that the 613 Commandments were given only to the Israelites…is all over the bible…see, the covenant upon which the 613 Commandments are a part was a covenant between God and the Israelites…to include Sabbath Observance.
Again…the covenant God has with ALL MANKIND is the Noahide Covenant.
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6YRSHOME
Guest
Why not? That’s exactly what you did in quoting all those verses in your attempt to prove your point.
The point is that no matter what one says, no matter how much documentiation is given you are still going to look at it with an SDA slant.
The thing is that you have yet to prove that keeping Sabbath that God gave to Israel is required to be kept by non Jewish Christian.
The fact that Paul and other Apostles preached on the Sabbath does not prove that they kept the Sabbath Law.
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pedja
Guest
No, my point was to show that it
s was and still is Lords Sabbath, not Jewish Sabbath. It is the Sabbath of the Lord, not the Sabbath of the Jews.My point was that the 7th day Sabbath was created by Jesus himself before there was any sin in the world, before Jews ever existed!
I could say exactly the same thing about you- looking at it with a Catholic slant
I dont see how that would prove that they did not keep the Sabbath?
The problem is you can`t prove with scripture that the day of observance was changed! The fact that the apostles sometimes met on Sundays (as they did on other days as well) does not say the weekly day of observance was changed.
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6YRSHOME
Guest
Yes, for the Jews. When He created his covenant doesn’t change its intent or purpose. The Jewish Sabbath observance was and is a shadow of the new covanant in Christ.
But the difference is that I have been where you are. I was raised in the Adventist church so I, like adventistnomore, MaryRoses, and SDA2RC have a broadened perspective.
As Catholics, I’m sure you know that we don’t limit God’s message to the Bible. Whether or not its proof or not for you, the fact that the early church started to meet on Sundays as an appropriate day to worship God is further documented historically.
Do you really want to know, or are you just interested in proving to us that your point of veiw is correct? I’m not trying to be antagonistic, I honestly courious.
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pedja
Guest
The thing is that I absolutely agree with what Paul says that we are no more under the law but under grace, which means that no matter how much I keep the law, “keeping the law” is not gonna save me, I am saved only through grace!
But Paul then also says now that we have understood how this works (how and by what we are saved), are we going to abolish the law? Are we going to “not keep the law”? No way! We are still to keep the law, because the law is good and the law is holy, only with the difference that now we know that we can not “deserve” salvation through obedience to the law! One can keep the law all his life and it doesnt mean he`s gonna be saved. It happens only through grace!
But the day of observance has got nothing to do with all this.
But Paul then also says now that we have understood how this works (how and by what we are saved), are we going to abolish the law? Are we going to “not keep the law”? No way! We are still to keep the law, because the law is good and the law is holy, only with the difference that now we know that we can not “deserve” salvation through obedience to the law! One can keep the law all his life and it doesnt mean he`s gonna be saved. It happens only through grace!
But the day of observance has got nothing to do with all this.
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Morning_Star15
Guest
If God changed the laws about eating kosher, couldn’t He have also in the New Testament changed the law about what day the Sabbath should be celebrated on? Something happened in the NT that changed the relationship between God and man: Christ redeemed us. God’s laws spell out our relationship with Him, and with Christ, that relationship, and hence the laws, changed.
The single most important event for us in all of history was Christ’s Resurrection, which set us free from sin and death. And He did this on a Sunday. So what holier day is there in the week to keep holy than the day that commemorates Christ’s Resurrection? After this momentous event happened, what reason would the Christians have had to hold Saturday in greater esteem than the day of Salvation?
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SDA2RC
Guest
Pedja,Throwing out a bunch of random verses out of any context is not really going to help you solving the case. I mean especially quoting Colossians, or Romans, please! Read the whole Colossians, understand what the problem was Paul was addressing and then please tell me how in the world would you ever come to the conlusion that the Sabbath day was abolished (or replaced).
Or all that stuff from Romans, how come you didnt mention the verses where Paul clearly states that the law is good and that it **should be **kept!
Your exactly right… throwing out a bunch of random verses out of context does not help… just like it does not help to make your case regarding the Sabbath. I wonder why you felt it was useful for you to do, but not for me? Either way, I am glad you got the point. Any idealogy can be supported if we just pull the verses we want to see and ignore the rest of scripture. A study on the Sabbath can not be complete without studying the Mosaic Law or Mitzvah, the authority of the Church, Scriptural teachings of Tradition, grace, the New Covenant, etc. When you put the whole picture together, it is VERY clear that the Sabbath is no longer binding on Christians.
In your verse list, you even felt that you had to put a little “explanation” after each one, why?
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pedja
Guest
Of course He could. But did He?
I agree with this as well, Christ redeemed us. But we are still keeping the law, arent we? We are still not killing, commiting adultery, witnessing false, honoring our parents, and some of us (like me) still keeping the Sabbath in remembrance of Creation! This is what I meant with what Paul is saying, the law is holy and it`s good, therefore we keep it!
But without Jesus` death, there is no resurrection! I agree with the importance of resurrection, no doubt about that, but at the same time I could also write an essay about the importance of Christ death for us, which happened on a Friday! Yet we dont keep Friday as the day of observance.
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pedja
Guest
You know why, because I was making a point. So many people say it is the Sabbath of the Jews, then I quote a vers like “But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God” and just add my little comment that it is NOT the Sabbath of the Jews BUT the Sabbath of the Lord. Basically what I am doing is if you would continue to tell me the Sabbath is a “Jewish thing” I would simply quote all the Bible verses where it says otherwise, it is NOT a Jewish thing! I dont know how else to explain it and I also dont know why you`re asking me that question anyway?!
I never said you cant quote the scripture, I only felt we were talking about one certain aspect, (who`s Sabbath is it), that is why all the verses that you put are all good but they address so many other issues, like the law etc. But I have no problem discussing them as well. I am not applying two different standards here.
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Morning_Star15
Guest
Are you seriously trying to say that His death was more important than His Resurrection?
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pedja
Guest
Are you seriously trying to say that His death was **less **important than His Resurrection?
I don’t even understand your question. How can we talk about resurrection if we don’t talk about death (for somebody to resurrect he needs to die first)? Isn’t it logically a bit weird to claim that resurrection is more important than death?
Think about it for a moment, what was the harder thing to do, to painfully die on the cross or to resurrect? To me Jesus
death is not more or less important than His resurrection, it goes together! The plan of salvation did not only include Christ only to resurrect but first to die for our sins! And that is almost unbelievable, that the God who created us would be ready to die for His creation. Didn’t you watch Mel Gibsons movie?? So tell me, isn’t His death actually equally important as is His resurrection? So why are we then not also remembering Friday?
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Morning_Star15
Guest
So it’s harder to die than to rise from the dead…
I know lots of people have died, but I can’t seem to remember anyone other than Christ rising from the dead three days afterwards (unless of course they were raised by Christ or in His name). I guess I don’t need to worry about dying, because I can just decide to get up again whenever I want to.
It was by rising from the dead that Christ conquered death, otherwise death would have had dominion over God Himself, if He had remained dead.
Anyway, if you want to argue that Christ’s death is more important that His Resurrection (and therefore that Friday takes precedence over Sunday) be my guest - but please explain to me why Saturday is more important to you than either of these days.
And Catholics also do commemorate Friday, because we recognize the importance of Christ’s Passion and Death, but we do not hold it in higher esteem than Sunday, the day of His Resurrection.
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Hellisreal
Guest
Yes, and why dont you do the stations of the Cross during Lent if Friday is such a big issue? SDA is confusing to me.
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St_Violet
Guest
i think they do have some sort of gatherings on fridays but I believe it’s once a year things, I was pretty bumed they didn’t have meat, they also say the a seventh Day adventist has a longer life span because they refrain from meat, isn’t that interesting. I’m going to research this but I’m assuming it’s just one of those baseless claims they make to make themselves feel more of a remnant church kinda like how they claim Ellen White’s books are the top three relgious best selling books,
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