Question for Calvinists

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Have fun jerking people around CHESTERTON.

Once you decide to accept what’s written in scripture, then you will be open to the truth.

You write:

You’re “universalizing” the encounter by attempting to apply it to everyone, when Christ’s words were directed to the young man.

Here’s what Jesus said:

23Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

You are wrong.

 

[ralphinal]

If a rich man is one of the elect, why is it hard for him to enter heaven? Eventually, he will get right and get in.

If a rich man is not one of the elect, what does it matter?

WHy did Jesus even mention money as being a concern? Either you are one of the elect or you are predestined for hell.

What am I missing?

Sandusky, your help on this would be most appriciated.

 

[sandusky]

Sandusky:

You’re “universalizing” the encounter by attempting to apply it to everyone, when Christ’s words were directed to the young man.

CHESTERTONRULES:

Here’s what Jesus said:

23Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

You are wrong.

You’re jerking me around, CR, and you’ve taken what I’ve said out of context.

My statement concerning your “universalizing” the encounter between Christ and the young ruler, had to do with your statement that giving away one’s wealth was a condition for salvation.

Giving away one’s wealth is not a condition for salvation.

If you think it is, then it’s you who’s wrong.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

You’re jerking me around, CR, and you’ve taken what I’ve said out of context.

My statement concerning your “universalizing” the encounter between Christ and the young ruler, had to do with your statement that giving away one’s wealth was a condition for salvation.

Giving away one’s wealth is not a condition for salvation.

If you think it is, then it’s you who’s wrong.

You know as well as I do that I made no such statement.

You do realize that everyone can read the words you post don’t you?

 

[sandusky]

Sandusky:

In the context of Christ’s encounter, it’s because his desire was more for keeping his riches, then it was for following Christ.

CHESTERTONRULES:

I agree.

This appears to be a condition of election, don’t you agree?

What Christ told him to do with his riches was give them all away, and follow…

It sounds to me as though that’s the point you’re making.

 

[cazayoux]

Giving away one’s wealth is not a condition for salvation.

I agree.
I don’t think the scripture in question is saying this, either.

The question is…
With your view of the elect, where you are either ‘in’ or ‘not’, why is there this mention of difficulty?

The scripture does not support the in or out of your theology.

michel

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

What Christ told him to do with his riches was give them all away, and follow…

It sounds to me as though that’s the point you’re making.

That’s not the point I’m making.

The point I’m making is that Jesus tells us that our position in life can make it more difficult to reach heaven.

If our election was truly unconditional, then this would not be the case.

 

[Reformed]

Excellent point.

(although can I admit to laughing at Sandusky’s post… “he’s catholic” - that was a funny response)

http://www.lovesanimals.com/images/animals/monkey/funny_monkey.jpg

Take your fingers out of your ears and listen to Sandusky!

and if you want to understand Calvinism, click the link below:

monergism.com/directory/link_category/Doctrines-of-Grace/

If anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, “What have you that you did not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7), and, “But by the grace of God I am what I am” (1 Cor. 15:10). If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, or that we can be saved by assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the effectual work of the Holy Spirit, who makes all whom He calls gladly and willingly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray from the plain teaching of Scripture by exalting the natural ability of man, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, “For apart from me you can do nothing” (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, “Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God” (2 Cor. 3:5).
Adapted from The Council of Orange (529 AD)

 

[ralphinal]

If a rich man is one of the elect, why is it hard for him to enter heaven? Eventually, he will get right and get in.

If a rich man is not one of the elect, what does it matter?

WHy did Jesus even mention money as being a concern? Either you are one of the elect or you are predestined for hell.

What am I missing?

Sandusky, your help on this would be most appriciated.

Help

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Clearly, we need God’s grace. It is his gift to us. Without his grace we cannot please him.

However, that’s not the end of the story.

We must respond to his grace by following his will.

If we reject his offer of grace, or accept it temporarily then fall away, then we are not guaranteed salvation.

God’s grace gives us the ability to follow him.

The rich man has a difficult time following God because of competing attractions, not because God has withheld his grace.

 

[cazayoux]

the *plain teaching *of Scripture

Yes … so very plain, yet your lens is so thick.

“For apart from me you can do nothing” (John 15:5)

It seems that you only read ‘you can do nothing’.
This actually says that what you DO is not apart from Him.

“Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God” (2 Cor. 3:5).

It seems that you only read that we are incompetent.
This actually says that our competence is from God.

michel

 

[sandusky]

ralphinal:

If a rich man is one of the elect, why is it hard for him to enter heaven? Eventually, he will get right and get in.

Wealth, or lack of wealth has nothing to do with election; that’s true of the RC teaching on election as well.

ralphinal:

If a rich man is not one of the elect, what does it matter?

It doesn’t.

ralphinal:

Why did Jesus even mention money as being a concern? Either you are one of the elect or you are predestined for hell.

What am I missing?

Sandusky, your help on this would be most appriciated.

What you’re missing is the entire context of the encounter.

The first question of the Lord to the young man was, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.”

Jesus sets him up for His next statement, “You know the commandments…”

To which the young man replied, “I’ve kept them from my youth.”

Which wasn’t true; no one keeps the commandments, that’s not the purpose of the commandments.

So Christ, knowing men’s hearts (Jn 24-25), moves to what the ruler loves most—his wealth—and demonstrates that the ruler, and men, desire temporal wealth, more than they desire Christ.

But the grace of God in salvation can overcome any obstacle in a man’s heart, and bring that man to a free-will belief through regeneration and the gift of faith.

 

[Reformed]

Isn’t our discussion all about the person and work of Jesus Christ on our behalf? How effectual is the grace of God that Christ merited on our behalf to save and transform sinners to the image of Christ for those whom God designed to save and change for God’s glory? How mighty is the work of our Triune God in this rescue mission and creating a new humanity in Christ? Our confidence is in God to finish the work that He started in spite of our struggles with the remaining sin in all of us. Sometimes I think Roman Catholic Christians have a too low of a view on the sovereign work of God in saving sinners.

Philippians 1

1:1 Paul and Timothy, servants [1] of Christ Jesus,

To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the overseers [2] and deacons: [3]

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thanksgiving and Prayer
3 I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, 4 always in every prayer of mine for you all making my prayer with joy, 5 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now. 6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. 7 It is right for me to feel this way about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, [4] both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel. 8 For God is my witness, how I yearn for you all with the affection of Christ Jesus. 9 And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment, 10 so that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, 11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

 

[cazayoux]

Sometimes I think Roman Catholic Christians have a too low of a view on the sovereign work of God in saving sinners.

Nothing could be further from the truth.
You know, from our long discussions, how much we revere that work that Christ completely accomplished.
You take that to mean, however, that there is no role for your actions, your works.

Jesus says…

John 9:4
[4] We must work the works of him who sent me, while it is day; night comes, when no one can work.

You disagree with Jesus and say we must not do works.
Remember that faith is akin to the body as works are to the spirit.
A body without a spirit is dead.
A faith without works is dead.
You would say that a faith without works is not faith at all, but that is not what scripture says.
We are ‘called’ to good works BECAUSE of our faith.
We must answer that ‘call’.

michel

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. 7 It is right for me to feel this way about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, [4] both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel. 8 For God is my witness, how I yearn for you all with the affection of Christ Jesus. 9 And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment, 10 so that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, 11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

Paul has hope and confidence in the grace of God, but he is not so arrogant as you.

Calvinists like to repeat the same narrow range of scripture readings while ignoring the truth.

If you keep reading further you will find this:

Philippians 3
10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. **13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. **

 

[ralphinal]

Wealth, or lack of wealth has nothing to do with election; that’s true of the RC teaching on election as well.

It doesn’t.

What you’re missing is the entire context of the encounter.

The first question of the Lord to the young man was, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.”

Jesus sets him up for His next statement, “You know the commandments…”

To which the young man replied, “I’ve kept them from my youth.”

Which wasn’t true; no one keeps the commandments, that’s not the purpose of the commandments.

So Christ, knowing men’s hearts (Jn 24-25), moves to what the ruler loves most—his wealth—and demonstrates that the ruler, and men, desire temporal wealth, more than they desire Christ.

But the grace of God in salvation can overcome any obstacle in a man’s heart, and bring that man to a free-will belief through regeneration and the gift of faith.

Thanks. Now, that makes sense. THen why did Jesus say that it would be harder for a rich man to enter heaven? DOes that not imply that riches can replace God? WOuld that not fly in the face of predestination? Again, if he is predestined, then his wealth will not encomber him, and if he is not, then the wealth is not an issue either.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Thanks. Now, that makes sense. THen why did Jesus say that it would be harder for a rich man to enter heaven? DOes that not imply that riches can replace God? WOuld that not fly in the face of predestination? Again, if he is predestined, then his wealth will not encomber him, and if he is not, then the wealth is not an issue either.

Logical and irrefutable.

 

[sandusky]

ralphinal:

Thanks. Now, that makes sense.

Then why did Jesus say that it would be harder for a rich man to enter heaven?

Well, concerning the ruler, giving away his riches kept him from Christ—at least at that time.

ralphinal:

Does that not imply that riches can replace God?

You and I both know that riches can’t replace God.

The problem is no one understands his need for Christ to reconcile him to the Father, until he hears and believes the Gospel.

For the one who has nothing, he’s more apt to give the Gospel a good hearing, though not always. Spend sometime on your local skid row, and talk to the drunks and the addicts. Surprisingly, many of them can recite scripture quite well, and they “knowingly” talk about God, but clearly, they’re not “believing,” as their lives demonstrate.

Christ’s point, IMO, is that for the rich, giving the Gospel a good hearing is not a priority—temporally, they have all they need, and more; what you bring in the Gospel doesn’t compute—they don’t recognize their need as set forth in the Gospel.

ralphinal:

Would that not fly in the face of predestination?

No. It’s the Spirit who convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment.

The Spirit can use wealth to bring one to a point of recognizing that even with great wealth, one lives with an underlying sense of unhappiness, or a sense of uneasiness, or a lack of joy, or a lack of fulfillment, or just a sense of lack, and a desire for something more than “things.”

The Spirit can overcome any obstacle to genuine faith.

ralphinal:

Again, if he is predestined, then his wealth will not encomber him, and if he is not, then the wealth is not an issue either.

No.

In fact, the Lord gives wealth to the wicked, and the righteous, as the Psalmist notes and struggles to understand (Ps 73).

I know many wealthy Christians whose generosity in giving to others is exceeded only by their love for Christ.

 

[ralphinal]

Well, concerning the ruler, giving away his riches kept him from Christ—at least at that time.

You and I both know that riches can’t replace God.

The problem is no one understands his need for Christ to reconcile him to the Father, until he hears and believes the Gospel.

For the one who has nothing, he’s more apt to give the Gospel a good hearing, though not always. Spend sometime on your local skid row, and talk to the drunks and the addicts. Surprisingly, many of them can recite scripture quite well, and they “knowingly” talk about God, but clearly, they’re not “believing,” as their lives demonstrate.

Christ’s point, IMO, is that for the rich, giving the Gospel a good hearing is not a priority—temporally, they have all they need, and more; what you bring in the Gospel doesn’t compute—they don’t recognize their need as set forth in the Gospel.

No. It’s the Spirit who convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment.

The Spirit can use wealth to bring one to a point of recognizing that even with great wealth, one lives with an underlying sense of unhappiness, or a sense of uneasiness, or a lack of joy, or a lack of fulfillment, or just a sense of lack, and a desire for something more than “things.”

The Spirit can overcome any obstacle to genuine faith.

No.

In fact, the Lord gives wealth to the wicked, and the righteous, as the Psalmist notes and struggles to understand (Ps 73).

I know many wealthy Christians whose generosity in giving to others is exceeded only by their love for Christ.

Ok. I have no issue with any of this that you wrote. What I do not understand is how being rich can alter if a person is one of the elect.

Maybe my question isn’t clear.

If you are elect, you will make it, if not, you will not. Is that correct?

What does being wealthy have to do with it at all? If you are elect, as you pointed out, you will reach the point of knowing you need Jesus, perhaps even BECAUSE of your wealth (good point, btw). If you are not, then even if you are poor, you will never get to that point.

I guess it is the part where Jesus says that it is harder for the rich man. That seems to imply that something can prevent us from converting, thus countering irresistable grace and predestination.

 

[Reformed]

Clearly, we need God’s grace. It is his gift to us. Without his grace we cannot please him.

However, that’s not the end of the story.

We must respond to his grace by following his will.

If we reject his offer of grace, or accept it temporarily then fall away, then we are not guaranteed salvation.

God’s grace gives us the ability to follow him.

The rich man has a difficult time following God because of competing attractions, not because God has withheld his grace.

The problem with our communications is our definition of grace. To a biblical Christian, grace is unmerited by us since Christ already merited the grace for us by His life and death on our behalf. We are not saved by our personal obedience in the Christian pilgrimage since we have already been justified by the perfect obedience of Christ. The rest of the issue has to do with assurance of salvation, false profession of faith (james 2), and the struggle in the Christian pilgrimage which is a true mark of saving faith (Rom 7). Our disobdience as Christians cannot nullify our adoption as children of God, because our standing before God is by grace alone. Because Roman Catholics security and assurance has too much weight on personal obedience done by Christ, you miss the truth of our sufficient basis of our justification of Christ alone. Romans 7 applies to all regenerat Christians. James 2 is contrasting a false professer of the Christian faith who has not been born from above nor united to Christ. Baptismal regeneration like altar calls and sinner’s prayer theologies cannot deal with those who profess Christ and are not progressively changing in our affection and obedience done in Christ.

Romans 5

Peace with God Through Faith
5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we [1] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith [2] into this grace in which we stand, and we [3] rejoice [4] in hope of the glory of God. 3 More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. - rom 5