Question for Calvinists

[Reformed]

Paul has hope and confidence in the grace of God, but he is not so arrogant as you.

Calvinists like to repeat the same narrow range of scripture readings while ignoring the truth.

If you keep reading further you will find this:

Philippians 3
10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. **13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. **

Ohh… don’t confuse the process of transformation with our position and standing with God. Romans 7 is the Christian expereience. The process (sanctification) is a very painful process and needs to be seperated from justification (legal standing).

1 Corinthians 15:10

10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

QUOTE]The problem with our communications is our definition of grace. To a biblical Christian, grace is unmerited by us since Christ already merited the grace for us by His life and death on our behalf.

Calvinists are not biblical Christians. You distort the bible to force it to conform to your dogma.

We are not saved by our personal obedience in the Christian pilgrimage since we have already been justified by the perfect obedience of Christ.

Let’s see if the bible agrees with you. Biblical Christians believe the following:

John 15
9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

Matt 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Romans 2
6-7 “For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life.”

Matthew 6:14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”

James 2:20 “Do you want to be shown you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren?”

 

[Reformed]

QUOTE]The problem with our communications is our definition of grace. To a biblical Christian, grace is unmerited by us since Christ already merited the grace for us by His life and death on our behalf.

Calvinists are not biblical Christians. You distort the bible to force it to conform to your dogma.

Let’s see if the bible agrees with you. Biblical Christians believe the following:

John 15
9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

Matt 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Romans 2
6-7 “For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life.”

Matthew 6:14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”

James 2:20 “Do you want to be shown you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren?”

Christ’s sheep obey Him (John 10). Why are we able to obey in degrees? Doesn’t it go full circle back to Christ…apart from me you can do nothing. If you are still united to Adam you are still in the flesh. Romans 8 states that those who are in the flesh cannot please (obey) God. Those who are united to Christ are able to obey God (not perfectly in this life) because they are united to Christ and the Spirit enables them to obey.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Reformed:
Christ’s sheep obey Him. Why are we able to obey in degrees? Doesn’t it go full circle back to Christ…apart from me you can do nothing. If you are still united to Adam you are still in the flesh. Romans 8 states that those who are in the flesh canno please (obey) God. Those who are united to Christ are able to obey God (not perfectly in this life) because they are united to Christ and the Spirit enables them to obey.

We can accept or reject his grace in our daily lives.

If we continue to disobey we become separated from God.

If we don’t bear fruit we will be cut from the branch.

God wants us to follow his will, but he won’t force us.

He loves us and wants our love in return.

The scriptures are clear:

The Sheep and the Goats
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37"Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

** 40"The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’ **

41"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44"They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
**
45"He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."**

 

[Reformed]

Christ’s sheep obey Him. Why are we able to obey in degrees? Doesn’t it go full circle back to Christ…apart from me you can do nothing. If you are still united to Adam you are still in the flesh. Romans 8 states that those who are in the flesh canno please (obey) God. Those who are united to Christ are able to obey God (not perfectly in this life) because they are united to Christ and the Spirit enables them to obey.

We can accept or reject his grace in our daily lives.

If we continue to disobey we become separated from God.

If we don’t bear fruit we will be cut from the branch.

God wants us to follow his will, but he won’t force us.

He loves us and wants our love in return.

The scriptures are clear:

The Sheep and the Goats
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37"Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

** 40"The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’ **

41"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44"They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
**
45"He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."**

Please go back to our Bible Study and my last post. Maybe you can tie everything together now?

1 John 4:18

18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Your opinions don’t interest me when they conflict with the Church and the Bible.

You are bound by a man made dogma and you are incapable of accepting the bible as it is written.

You will be judged for your actions while on earth.

You can either accept the grace offered you and follow Jesus, or reject it.

If you don’t respond, you will not be saved.

 

[Reformed]

Your opinions don’t interest me when they conflict with the Church and the Bible.

You are bound by a man made dogma and you are incapable of accepting the bible as it is written.

You will be judged for your actions while on earth.

You can either accept the grace offered you and follow Jesus, or reject it.

If you don’t respond, you will not be saved.

The song and praise of His glorious grace cannot be your song, can it?

 

[sandusky]

ralphinal:

Ok. I have no issue with any of this that you wrote. What I do not understand is how being rich can alter if a person is one of the elect.

Maybe my question isn’t clear.

If you are elect, you will make it, if not, you will not. Is that correct?

Correct, that’s what the CC describes as elect to “eternal blessedness.”

ralphinal:

What does being wealthy have to do with it at all?

It’s a truth noted by Christ concerning the rich young ruler’s sorrow over having to give up his wealth to gain life—it’s hard for a rich person to give all of that up, but the Spirit can overcome that.

ralphinal:

If you are elect, as you pointed out, you will reach the point of knowing you need Jesus, perhaps even BECAUSE of your wealth (good point, btw). If you are not, then even if you are poor, you will never get to that point.

Correct.

ralphinal:

I guess it is the part where Jesus says that it is harder for the rich man. That seems to imply that something can prevent us from converting, thus countering irresistable grace and predestination.

You’re experiencing the same difficulty as the apostles (v 26).

However, note the Lord’s response (v27).

The Spirit can overcome any obstacle.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

The song and praise of His glorious grace cannot be your song, can it?

It is my song and I am singing.

If you reject his grace, you won’t be saved.

Do you disagree?

 

[Reformed]

It is my song and I am singing.

If you reject his grace, you won’t be saved.

Do you disagree?

There is a manifold of grace. There is common grace and sovereign grace. Does the unregenerate sinner sing the song and praise of His glorious grace? Consider Romans 1.

God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

There is a manifold of grace. There is common grace and sovereign grace. Does the unregenerate sinner sing the song and praise of His glorious grace? Consider Romans 1.

You didn’t answer the question.

If you reject his grace, you won’t be saved.

Do you disagree?

 

[Reformed]

You didn’t answer the question.

If you reject his grace, you won’t be saved.

Do you disagree?

I did answer your question, but you didn’t understand my answer. All of life is grace including the breath of life. So, I am making a distinction of different kinds of grace. There is common grace which all receive. There is sovereign grace which the elect receive. Even Roman Catholicism teaches a form of a similar grace given only to the elect to persevere to the end.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Gal 6

7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up./B]

 

[ralphinal]

Correct, that’s what the CC describes as elect to “eternal blessedness.”

It’s a truth noted by Christ concerning the rich young ruler’s sorrow over having to give up his wealth to gain life—it’s hard for a rich person to give all of that up, but the Spirit can overcome that.

Correct.

You’re experiencing the same difficulty as the apostles (v 26).

However, note the Lord’s response (v27).

The Spirit can overcome any obstacle.

I guess I am still confused over the whole predestination part. If he was predestined to make it, why did Jesus not just say “Those who are called will be saved, those who are not have no hope.” instead of mentioning his money.

The Spirit can and does overcome everything. I guess I am just missing something.

 

[Reformed]

I guess I am still confused over the whole predestination part. If he was predestined to make it, why did Jesus not just say “Those who are called will be saved, those who are not have no hope.” instead of mentioning his money.

The Spirit can and does overcome everything. I guess I am just missing something.

Well… to refute hyper-Calvinism and to reveal a universal call to all mankind to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sin. This universal call is a genuine offer made to all mankind by God. But who is able to take this offer in their own flesh? So, how does the Spirit of God enable some to repent and believe in an effectual way throughout life?

 

[Reformed]

Gal 6

7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time **we will reap a harvest if we do not give up./**B]

Of course this is all true. There are many exhortations and commands for us to do through Christ.

 

[SimonArizona]

Well… to refute hyper-Calvinism and to reveal a universal call to all mankind to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sin. This universal call is a genuine offer made to all mankind by God. But who is able to take this offer in their own flesh? So, how does the Spirit of God enable some to repent and believe in an effectual way throughout life?

It is the Grace of God. A higher action of life working in us, to sanctify, to beautify, to transform. This begins at Baptism, yet a man is lead by Grace even to his baptism. This higher life is found in the Eucharist, unless you eat and drink Christ you have no life in you.-Jesus

 

[Reformed]

It is the Grace of God. A higher action of life working in us, to sanctify, to beautify, to transform. This begins at Baptism, yet a man is lead by Grace even to his baptism. This higher life is found in the Eucharist, unless you eat and drink Christ you have no life in you.-Jesus

Are you saying that those Christians who are not partaking in the actual flesh and actual blood of Jesus have no life in Christ, and are still dead in our sins and trespasses? Now that’s hyper-limited atonement.

 

[cazayoux]

Are you saying that those Christians who are not partaking in the actual flesh and actual blood of Jesus have no life in Christ, and are still dead in our sins and trespasses? Now that’s hyper-limited atonement.

It’s not what SimonArizona is saying, it’s what Christ is saying.

John 6:53
So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you

How do you interpret that verse?
I’m sure you feel that you have life in you, so how do YOU ‘eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood’?

michel

 

[Reformed]

It’s not what SimonArizona is saying, it’s what Christ is saying.

John 6:53
So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you

How do you interpret that verse?
I’m sure you feel that you have life in you, so how do YOU ‘eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood’?

michel

Originally Posted by SimonArizona
It is the Grace of God. A higher action of life working in us, to sanctify, to beautify, to transform. This begins at Baptism, yet a man is lead by Grace even to his baptism. This higher life is found in the Eucharist, unless you eat and drink Christ you have no life in you.-Jesus

If you have no life, then you are spirituality dead. I think SimonArizona and yourself have gone beyond the official Roman Catholic teaching on seperated brethrens. Please notice how SimonArizona added to the Scriptures too. It’s not good to add to the written Word of God.