Question for Calvinists

[sola_scriptura]

Foreknowledge only precedes providence from your perspective in time.

Your view must ignore the explicit intructions in scripture that tell us which actions and beliefs are required for us to be obedient.

It isn’t really scripture where I derive this idea from, since scripture never clarifies how God reaches His elective determinations. Foreknowledge is spoken of – “those whom He foreknew He also predestined” – and the only other verse in scripture that sheds any light on this is:

“ Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
Before you were born I sanctified you;
I ordained you a prophet to the nations.” (Jeremiah 1:5)

So the foreknowledge spoken of here is actual knowledge (the word “knew” used here is from the Hebrew Yada` which means know or knew as we naturally understand the word, see Strong’s 03045). The obvious question is how does God knows us in this intimate way before our birth?

The real decisive factor is whether God’s elective choices are based on something we do (a positive response to grace) or is a unilateral choice made by God for His own reasons in accordance with His own will and good pleasure (that we are not made privy to)? Scripture overwhelmingly supports the latter idea, for example:

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” (Romans 9:11-13)

Paul goes on:

It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. (Romans 9:16-18)

We both agree on the necessity of grace. I believe that God gave all humans the ability to use this grace because he loves us. I believe he knows who will(already has) accept his grace. These are the chosen.

Again, IMO that view (which I formerly agreed with) is not in accord with either scripture or reality. It simply cannot be denied that some people have a much higher statistical chance at faith in Christ than others. Paul gives us one such example:

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? (Romans 10:14)

Now it sounds nice to say those who are ignorant to Christ will be perhaps afforded another opportunity or will be judged in a different way, but is that really scriptural?

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. (John 3:18)

Obviously no one can deny that there have been billions of people since the resurrection who have lived and died without ever hearing the Gospel message. So we are told that you must hear the word to have faith, and those without faith are condemned.

I’m sure you know that John 3:18 is one of dozens of examples enumerating the absolute necessity of faith in Jesus Christ. Nowhere in scripture is there any clear (or even inferred) indication that those who did not hear the word will be spared in some way. Unbelievers are always given harsh treatment in scripture with no qualification. So if what you say is true it really would be at the mercy of God and by His secret will that has simply not been revealed to us.

All instructions urging obedience, perseverence, prayer, etc. would be meaningless unless we were expected to follow.

I’m not sure why you would say this? You’ll have to elaborate on this a bit. I need to post the rest of my response in a new post (my character length went over the limit).

 

[sola_scriptura]

Regarding physics, I also love modern physics.

Are you familiar with Frank Tipler? Some of his views are out there but he makes some very compelling points.

He wrote: The Physics of Immortality

and : The Physics of Christianity

I haven’t read the second book but I scanned through it last week and I will read it soon.

Tipler uses modern physics to offer possible explanations for eternal life, the trinity, etc.

I’ve heard of him but I’ve generally studied secular physics. Frankly while it’s fun to imagine physics from a theological standpoint sometimes it can be a slippery slope. For instance, intelligent design theorists would say that super string or M theory (that posits a multi-dimensional world) is impossible. However, that seems ludicrous to me. I can imagine ways that scripture could be perfectly consistent in a universe with more than four dimensions.

My leaning toward Calvinism is scripturally based, although I also look at the tangible world around us (and consider facts we know to be true like not all have heard or will hear the Gospel, and all people do not have a genuine equal chance at salvation even if they somehow do hear the Gospel message – statistically speaking). However, physics is a tool we can use to at least try to wrap our tiny minds around how God might think.

For instance with omniscience. I’m sure you know about relativity and the space time continuum. The speed of travel determines the rate of time because space and time are essentially to forms of the same thing (like energy and matter). So the faster you travel the slower time moves (the relationship is precisely related). Without going over my head and getting into the arrow of time or time slicing, suffice it to say that if God exists everywhere in the universe, and observes the entire universe with the same observation, so for God travel is not required. He can see us and ten billion light years away at the same time. This would also mean He can observe the past and future just as He can observe our present with the same observation (given the relationship between space and time).

However, then we get into the question of God’s intervention. With every intervention He makes into human affairs the future is altered in a significant way. In other words the future must always rely on God’s actions and decisions, and God cannot be driven by His knowledge. At some point God must have decided He would create the universe. Since God is omniscient and eternal we know God must have always known He would create the universe. However, He must have always known this because He must have always wanted to created the universe.

To say otherwise just dilutes God’s power too much for my taste. Under the view that omniscience is the driver for divine action it becomes difficult to say God ever really made a decision based on His will – which is just not biblical. God takes full ownership for His creation. He states time and time again it is His good will and pleasure that will be accomplished.

IMO the proper way to view this isn’t by saying God’s choices are arbitrary. God has a plan. His elective choices are in accordance with His plans not ours. So His choices are not arbitrary from His perspective. That’s all we’re told. It’s like our first parents, they were given a command without being given any knowledge of good and evil. We’re told God chose us and not given a reason.

God gives numerous commands in scripture, yet didn’t give everyone the grace required to follow them. In fact God hardened some people so they were absolutely unable to follow His commands. So even the typical objection I get to Calvinist doctrine: that since God gives commands we must have the ability to obey – is wrong. God does give us commands and yet only gives His elect the ability to obey them.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I’ve heard of him but I’ve generally studied secular physics. Frankly while it’s fun to imagine physics from a theological standpoint sometimes it can be a slippery slope. For instance, intelligent design theorists would say that super string or M theory (that posits a multi-dimensional world) is impossible. However, that seems ludicrous to me. I can imagine ways that scripture could be perfectly consistent in a universe with more than four dimensions.

I don’t know if this has changed, but as of the writing of his first book Tipler was at best an agnostic and definitely not a Christian.

For instance with omniscience. I’m sure you know about relativity and the space time continuum. The speed of travel determines the rate of time because space and time are essentially to forms of the same thing (like energy and matter). So the faster you travel the slower time moves (the relationship is precisely related). Without going over my head and getting into the arrow of time or time slicing, suffice it to say that if God exists everywhere in the universe, and observes the entire universe with the same observation, so for God travel is not required. He can see us and ten billion light years away at the same time. This would also mean He can observe the past and future just as He can observe our present with the same observation (given the relationship between space and time).