Question for Catholics and Orthodox: would you follow your Church?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Harpazo
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
peary said:
This will be the work of the Holy Spirit, not what the laity may or may not want.
Click to expand...
The laity is every bit as part of the Holy Orthodox Church as the clergy. The Holy Spirit will work through the entire Church–including the laity.
 
Well I trust the theologians and the Pope to obviously have weighed everything and come to the reuniting with a great deal of thought and foresight, so yes, that is after all they’re job, to keep the peace, help the needy and bring everyone into communion.

I don’t see if both sides agree why people shouldn’t agree either.
 
Mickey said:
The laity is every bit as part of the Holy Orthodox Church as the clergy. The Holy Spirit will work through the entire Church–including the laity.
Click to expand...
**The Holy Spirit works through the entire Church in spite of either the laity or clergy.
👍
 
Dauphin said:
No. That would be a profession of religious indifferentism.

The doctrines of the Catholic Church are not “human ways”. Every Catholic is bound to profess them as true, Divine revelation. The Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodoxy are not on equal footing here. An Eastern Orthodox faithful may not attain salvation unless suffering from invincible ignorance of the teaching of the Catholic and Apostolic Church. There is no salvation outside the Church. Why do Catholics so often see fit to ignore this?

Veiling our differences in ambiguous terms and vaguely hoping for a reunification will do nothing but bring the ruin of souls. To a true Catholic, the terms are clear; the Eastern Orthodox must abandon their heresy and return to the genuine orthodoxy of the Catholic Church.

A false and purely material reunification which destroys the integrity of the Catholic faith most certainly should not be our goal.
Click to expand...
I’m not talking about that, I’m just saying that reunification will not happen on human terms. It is only through God’s will, and action will we be one again. We should not hide our differences, we should talk about them all the time. But we should not pray for reunification in a prideful way. We should pray for reunification in a humble way. We should still explain every step of the way how our doctrine and dogma is correct… but when we pray about reunification it should be with humility. We should pray that Christ works in the world to the end he disires. More will get done if we trust Christ, then if we make demands of him. If you truely believe as I do that Catholicism is the Church Christ founded, holds no false dogmas, and holds the fullness of Christianity. Then put your trust in Christ, he will lead us to reunification in the correct way. But our prayer should be for us to submit our will to Christ, to have him lead us, we should not demand action of him to vindicate us. That is all I am saying. You can be completely honest and forthcoming about your faith and why you feel it is better then the other, without being prideful. Being prideful only invites Satan into the process and he will do all he can to prevent unity…
 
zagjames said:
Being prideful only invites Satan into the process and he will do all he can to prevent unity…
Click to expand...
I think that’s an excellent point. His role in the fracturing of the Apostolic Church is too seldom mentioned.
 
peary said:
**The Holy Spirit works through the entire Church *in spite of ***either the laity or clergy.
👍
Click to expand...
In spite of?!?

If the Virgin Mary had said “no”, would the Holy Spirit have descended upon her "in spite of " her negative answer?

Mankind has freewill.
 
Mickey said:
In spite of?!?

If the Virgin Mary had said “no”, would the Holy Spirit have descended upon her "in spite of " her negative answer?

Mankind has freewill.
Click to expand...
**You want to put the Holy Spirit in a box and limit His influence in this matter. History has shown that the Holy Spirit will work to God’s advantage in accomplishing His Will *in spite of *either the cooperation of the clergy or the laity. **
 
peary said:
You want to put the Holy Spirit in a box and limit His influence in this matter. History has shown that the Holy Spirit will work to God’s advantage in accomplishing His Will *in spite of *either the cooperation of the clergy or the laity.
Click to expand...
Study up on your theology. The Holy Spirit acts in accordance with our cooperation.
 
Mickey said:
Study up on your theology. The Holy Spirit acts in accordance with our cooperation.
Click to expand...
The Holy Spirit has also acted upon the Church when both clergy and laity have been down the road to perdition at the same time.
 
peary said:
The Holy Spirit has also acted upon the Church when both clergy and laity have been down the road to perdition at the same time.
Click to expand...
The Holy Spirit can prod us in the right direction, but it cannot work through us without our cooperation. Is that what your trying to say?
 
zagjames said:
The Holy Spirit can prod us in the right direction, but it cannot work through us without our cooperation. Is that what your trying to say?
Click to expand...
It does seem to be the case. He keeps saying “in spite of”. :confused:
 
Holly3278 said:
… I am currently dating a Maronite Catholic. If him and I get married someday, I will convert to the Maronite rite of the Catholic Church…
Click to expand...
If you can’t convert them, marry them. 👍

P.S. The Maronite Catholics are in full communion with the Pope.
 
*Quote:
Originally Posted by zagjames *
**The Holy Spirit can prod us in the right direction, but it cannot work through us without our cooperation. Is that what your trying to say?

It does seem to be the case. He keeps saying “in spite of”. **

Mickey says that the Holy Spirit cannot work without our cooperation. I am saying that the Holy Spirit, as God, can work any way He chooses, with or without our cooperation. That is what I meant when typing out “in spite of.” This was in reference to eventual unity of the eastern and western churches - that it will occur whether the laity agree on it or not if it is what God wants.
 
peary said:
I am saying that the Holy Spirit, as God, can work any way He chooses, with or without our cooperation.
Click to expand...
THE HOLY SPIRIT WORKS WITH THE FREE WILL

The Holy Spirit provides the Christian with the necessary grace to answer his spiritual calling out of free will. Educating the Christians in spiritual freedom, He encourages him to cooperate in His work within the Church and in the world, this being achieved out of free will. By the grace of Christ, in love, the Christian is drawn to inner freedom and peace of heart, enduring the most difficult trials of the world.
http://www.catholicdoors.com/courses/th1.htm
 
The Catholic church holds the fullness of God’s devine revalation- there is no need to change it. On the other hand, the Orthodox (while I love them much) became schsmatic and therefore succumbed to some error in their doctrine- ie ‘the pope is not head of the Church’ etc. therefore, no it is not right to change our doctrine to satiate there needs (although we love them as brothers).
 
I would accept it. If reunification ever happens (and I don’t see it as being very likely) I think both sides would have to change in some ways. That’s partly why I don’t see it as being very likely. But then again, stranger things have happened. Not sure what, off the top of my head, but I’m sure in the history of mankind that stranger things have happened.

But considering that I do not know everything about Catholic and Orthodox theology/history/liturgical practices/traidition/customs/etc. I really don’t see why I should have any say in the matter. If it happens, I’ll accept it. Don’t expect it to happen, but I’m always willing to be pleasantly surprised.

:crossrc: :byzsoc:

The smilies get along, but I don’t think the rest of us will any time soon. But then again, it’s up to God, not me.
 
Mickey said:
THE HOLY SPIRIT WORKS WITH THE FREE WILL

The Holy Spirit provides the Christian with the necessary grace to answer his spiritual calling out of free will. Educating the Christians in spiritual freedom, He encourages him to cooperate in His work within the Church and in the world, this being achieved out of free will. By the grace of Christ, in love, the Christian is drawn to inner freedom and peace of heart, enduring the most difficult trials of the world.
http://www.catholicdoors.com/courses/th1.htm
Click to expand...
It’s not “either/or”; it’s “both/and.” If God desires unity in His Church, He will divise ways to have that occur. Sometimes, you just have to sit back and watch it happen as you have no control over the Will of God. And for one to think that he or she has such control borders on, not only idolatry, but extreme narcissism.
 
zagjames said:
I’m not talking about that, I’m just saying that reunification will not happen on human terms. It is only through God’s will, and action will we be one again. We should not hide our differences, we should talk about them all the time. But we should not pray for reunification in a prideful way. We should pray for reunification in a humble way. We should still explain every step of the way how our doctrine and dogma is correct… but when we pray about reunification it should be with humility. We should pray that Christ works in the world to the end he disires. More will get done if we trust Christ, then if we make demands of him. If you truely believe as I do that Catholicism is the Church Christ founded, holds no false dogmas, and holds the fullness of Christianity. Then put your trust in Christ, he will lead us to reunification in the correct way. But our prayer should be for us to submit our will to Christ, to have him lead us, we should not demand action of him to vindicate us. That is all I am saying. You can be completely honest and forthcoming about your faith and why you feel it is better then the other, without being prideful. Being prideful only invites Satan into the process and he will do all he can to prevent unity…
Click to expand...
You’re right. Praying “God, please let those other people realize that we are right and they are wrong” doesn’t really help things.
 
peary said:
It’s not “either/or”; it’s “both/and.” If God desires unity in His Church, He will divise ways to have that occur. Sometimes, you just have to sit back and watch it happen as you have no control over the Will of God. And for one to think that he or she has such control borders on, not only idolatry, but extreme narcissism.
Click to expand...
God desires many things that He will not get. For example, it is God’s will that ALL will be saved, but it is also God’s will that humans exercise free will. He has empowered us to deny Him His will. Unity is a similar situation. It was never God’s will that His Church be divided, but because He refused to thwart our exercise of free will, there have been schisms - Orthodoxy, and out and out rebellion - Protestantism. If Orthodoxy refuses to return to Rome, there will be no unity.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top