Question for Catholics and Protestants - Definition of "Works"?

[JoeyWarren]

We all look for the best choices of words which are hard to come by at times.

yep it is a hard to come by, especially those that wish to nit pick every single sentence.

 

[onenow1]

Good wrks= Love God obey all the commands he gave us through the GOSPELS and TRADITIONS of the church.
Grace will flow through a well formed conscience.

Gal. 5:6- only thing that counts is faith working through love.
John. 15: 15-if you love me keep my commandments.
Matt. 19: 16-17- if you wish to enter into life keep the commandments.
Phil. 2:12- work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
Rom. 2:2-8- eternal life by perserverance in good works.
Jam. 2: 14-24 a man is justified by works and not faith alone.
col. 3:24-25-will receive due payment for whatever you do.
2 cor. 11: 15 their end will correspond to their deeds.

Peace, OneNow1

 

[BlestOne]

I do know what the Catholic church teaches.

What I pointed out about in Revelations is for those hyper-literalist Protestants that exist.

Yes my choice of words might not have been the best…

Joey,
I understood what you were saying but it did sound very much like what the Protestants always jump on us for. I think it is just a point of view thing honestly. We are taught to do works as a matter of course… when we ask why, yes we are shown or told alot of what you said, BUT… the primary reason is the Christ-like emulation. Because we want to or are moved to help others by our faith and our love for all God’s Children, not because of some list…

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I think part of the problem is that in my generation (probably the same as your husband’s) we were not well catechised. It is a shame, but after adulthood we are responsible for our own education. To be a true “good” Christian of any sort, your education never ends. The more we can learn, the more we can try to live a Christ like life… Just my humble opinion.

Hi,
Maybe although my husband went to catholic school–does that make a difference or no? He is in his 40’s if that helps.

 

[MariaG]

Hi,
Maybe although my husband went to catholic school–does that make a difference or no? He is in his 40’s if that helps.

I have found that those who went to Catholic school of your husband’s age were not only poorly catechised, (ie, they don’t understand Catholic teachings), they were VERY poorly heart taught and have no idea of who Christ is deep in their soul where it counts.

But Catholics also have very deep “cultural” ties, as well as usually having been sealed with the Holy Spirit (during confirmation). It is much easier to bring a fallen away Catholic back to Christ Through and IN the Catholic church than to try and pull them out of it. Culturally because that is the way they have been raised, but also because to the Grace from God they have recieved through the Sacraments, I believe, they tend to shy away from anything but the complete truth as found only within the Catholic Church. They have experienced God’s Grace in a most wonderous way, and even if they don’t understand in their head, it is still etched very deeply on their heart.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[BlestOne]

Hi,
Maybe although my husband went to catholic school–does that make a difference or no? He is in his 40’s if that helps.

I am 43…so yep…same time frame. No it doesn’t seem to make a difference because the CC seems to have gone through a period of time that parents stopped being the primary educators while the chuch seems to have relaxed alot of their catechisis at the same time. Be encouraged that this has really changed in the past 10 years though.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I am 43…so yep…same time frame. No it doesn’t seem to make a difference because the CC seems to have gone through a period of time that parents stopped being the primary educators while the chuch seems to have relaxed alot of their catechisis at the same time. Be encouraged that this has really changed in the past 10 years though.

Hi,
Your the same age as my hubby. Although he has a Bday coming up. I guess that would make sense as to why he believes the way he does.

Thank you and Maria for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[BlestOne]

Hi,
Your the same age as my hubby. Although he has a Bday coming up. I guess that would make sense as to why he believes the way he does.

Thank you and Maria for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

I hate birthdays! Mine is in May… Here’s to hoping and praying that your husband gets a renewed interest in learning about his faith for his birthday!

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I hate birthdays! Mine is in May… Here’s to hoping and praying that your husband gets a renewed interest in learning about his faith for his birthday!

Thank you:thumbsup:

 

[BlestOne]

AllForHim… I don’t know what your finances are like but if you could afford Jeff Cavins Great Adventure Bible Study CD’s and the workbook (or 2) it is really good and you could listen to them while he is around… I think it might spark interest. But hey, here is a better (well cheaper) solution: Go to biblechristiansociety.com/download and download a few of his talks… I recommend The marriage and Eucharist one greatly

 

[Zooey]

I think Catholics and Protestants should shout from the rooftops together: “We are saved by grace!” so that everybody gets the message.

I agree!! None of us talk about grace enough…And yet, you see, grace is what matters the most.
I have gotten to know some great people here on CAF, & I know that there are some beautiful Christian people who post here. I get frustrated, too, when someone shows up with a mistaken idea of what Catholics believe, because I do, as I say, feel that I know people here…
Sometimes I think of that saying that England & the US are “2 countries divided by a common language”…Something like that can happen between followers of our Lord, too. We use the same words, but, often, we seem to be using them to mean different things. (Equally, we sometimes use different words to describe the same thing).

One of the best things that the 'Net can offer us, may well be the opportunity to talk about subjects like this one…

And, Bob, my friend, that passage from Matthew happens to be one of my favorite portions of Scripture! All Christians need to take it to heart. It would be a much better world if we would do that!!

God bless all here.

 

[mamanicky]

Is there a scorecard of some sort? Well Revelations tends to indicate that there is one of sorts…

Originally posted by John: Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

I may be fueling a whole new fire here, but isn’t our “scorecard” essentially a determinant of the extent of sanctification we need to enter heaven? (Otherwise known as purgatory to RC’s) My whole understanding of purgatory is that the more sins you’ve committed and the charity you had the opportunity to do but didn’t, the greater cleansing you need to enter heaven. However, just getting to pugatory is joyous because you know you are being prepared to join God.

 

[JoeyWarren]

I may be fueling a whole new fire here, but isn’t our “scorecard” essentially a determinant of the extent of sanctification we need to enter heaven? (Otherwise known as purgatory to RC’s) My whole understanding of purgatory is that the more sins you’ve committed and the charity you had the opportunity to do but didn’t, the greater cleansing you need to enter heaven. However, just getting to pugatory is joyous because you know you are being prepared to join God.

Purgatory covers those things that keep you in a state of unpureness. We claim to be saved but each and every one of us holds on those things that make us unclean. Remember the Seven Deadly Sins? Well you may not hold any of those, but you do hold the children and grandchildren of those sins. Do a thesaurus search on Pride.

I will print my twin analogy later.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Twins are separated at birth and are put up for adoption.

Twin A gets adopted by a pious Christian family. Twin A accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior and lives a pious life.

Twin B gets adopted by a non Christian family. Twin B lives a sinful life.

70 years pass since birth.

Twin A and Twin B end up in the Hospital on their death bed in the same room. Twin A tells Twin B about Jesus. Twin B accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.

1 minute later, Twin A and Twin B die.

Obviously we could say that Twin A goes to heaven. Whether or not Twin A passed thru the state of Purification is not the issue.

Twin B?

From a Protestant viewpoint, They say that both would end up in Heaven at heaven to stand before God at the same time.

I see a problem with this. This belief says I can live a sinful life and continue so as long a I at some point before death repent for my sins and ask for forgiveness provided I don’t get taken out of this life in a untimely manner such as an Automobile accident, Heart Attack, etc, etc, etc.

Twin A has never known Sin. Twin B has known Sin all his life.

The wages of Sin is death. Where does the death part come into play for one that has sinned all his life and by chance happens to get saved just prior to death?

Purification removes this problem. Twin B has a lot of straw, hay, and thistle to be burned away.

Of course there is no way to determine how long this purification takes place. Could be 1 millionth of second or could last until Christ comes back again.

Purgatory just makes sense from the Twin analogy.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

I may be fueling a whole new fire here, but isn’t our “scorecard” essentially a determinant of the extent of sanctification we need to enter heaven? (Otherwise known as purgatory to RC’s) My whole understanding of purgatory is that the more sins you’ve committed and the charity you had the opportunity to do but didn’t, the greater cleansing you need to enter heaven. However, just getting to pugatory is joyous because you know you are being prepared to join God.

Of course…no one can enter heaven until they are perfect as God is perfect. Purgatory is where we go to be purified. There is no doubt that there is a scorecard. The Protestant notion that you can be saved by ‘faith alone’ is not supported anywhere in the bible.

MATTHEW 26 31:46

31 But when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory: 32 and before him shall be gathered all the nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats; 33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in; 36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or athirst, and gave thee drink? 38 And when saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 And when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, [even] these least, ye did it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink; 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me. 46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life

When we stand before God after death there will be an accounting. We will see ourselves as God sees us…in most cases it won’t be pretty.

Iowa Mike

 

[JoeyWarren]

When we stand before God after death there will be an accounting. We will see ourselves as God sees us…in most cases it won’t be pretty.

That’s an understatement for sure.

 

[Mommyof02green]

I tell my kids that there are only 2 types of “works”.

Good works and Bad works.

“Bad” works are sins therefore Good works are anything that is NOT a sin.

Every task that is before us we have a choice “good” or “bad”.
Just always do “good” and avoid “sin”…

The best way to avoid sin (bad works) is to do “good” works.

examples:
“bad” work (sin) = telling a lie
“good” work (not a sin) = telling the truth

“bad” work (sin) = putting things before God
“good” work (not a sin) = keeping God first in everything

 

[Mommyof02green]

I am 43…so yep…same time frame. No it doesn’t seem to make a difference because the CC seems to have gone through a period of time that parents stopped being the primary educators while the chuch seems to have relaxed alot of their catechisis at the same time. Be encouraged that this has really changed in the past 10 years though.

Yep that’s the problem.

The Church as always said that the parents are the primary teachers of the faith.
The Church still said that today:

CCC paragraphs 2221-2223 shows this (see link: usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2.htm#art4 )

Some where along the line parents just didn’t teach their kids like they use to and left it on the Church to do it ALL through Religious Ed classes in the school or CCD class through the Church. Yes, those classes are important and they do help but they should not be the only source or the primary source of education for the children.

We’ve all have seen those anti-drug/smoking commercials on T.V. that tell parents to talk to your kids and they will listen. That you are the “primary” influence in their lives when it comes to those things, well the same is true for Religion and Faith.

If you want your children to be “good” Christians or “good” Catholic-Christians then you need to be a “good” Christian or a “good” Catholic-Christian.

The Church on a whole has been slow to realize that parents weren’t teaching their children like they should and now we have Adults that are lost and have no clue. I believe that is why for the Catechesis programs that are shooting up around the country (USA). I believe that is why we now have the “Why be Catholic program for Adults”. I believe that is why speaker like Fr. Corapi are popular. Adults are realizing that they are lacking in information and understanding of their Catholic Faith. And as Adult they are turning to the Church and saying “HELP”

Hopefully these Adults will pass this knowledge down to their children. As a CCD teacher myself I know that there is only so much I can do. I’m not with these children 24/7 and I don’t have the means to take them to Church. What is sad as a CCD teacher I can tell who goes to church regularly and who does not just by talking to the kids. I can tell if Faith is talked about at home or not. I never ask them if they go to church and I never ask if they talk about faith at home but I can just tell by the discussions we have in class.

It’s sad when I have 15 6th graders in a room and only 3 of them can recite the Our Father.
There is only so much I can do in a 30 minute class. This year I’m suppose to teach the sacraments but instead I have to spend half the class time just teaching “common” prayers such as the Our Father.

This cycle needs to be broken and the only way I see it being broken if parents step up and start teaching their kids the faith. The best way is just to live the faith yourself. After all actions speak louder then words!

 

[onenow1]

Hi,
In as few words as possible, doing everyday through the grace of God, that which He expects us to do; anything we are capable of doing to advance the kingdom of God.As scripture says love God with all your heart and soul, and like unto it love your neighbor. Preach the gospel and if necessary use words to quote St. francis.

Peace, OneNow1