Question for Catholics: Will you really go to hell for deliberatly missing mass?

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Santaro,

You wrote: “I tell you what though, an organization like the one your describe is not one I want to be part of.”

I didn’t describe any organization, so I truly don’t know what you’re talking about.

You wrote: " I believe in a merciful God that would never damn you into eternal hell if your motives were pure and not malicious in intent."

Did I say that He would? No, I didn’t. Next straw-man, please. However, I think you will admit that consciences can be deadened—and we can all fool ourselves and rationalize sin away. Just because we have that capacity does not mean that, objectively speaking, sin has not been committed. We do have the duty to inform our consciences

You wrote: “As Catholics we should get off our high and mighty horse acting like the pharisees”

And you think that daring to say that we should observe the Ten Commandments makes us Pharisees? Tell me, Santaro: what do you make of Paul’s comments, “By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith”, and “Declare these things; exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you”? Clearly Paul thought it his duty to instruct people and form their consciences. Was he a Pharisee because of it? Do you think you are doing someone a favor by letting them go on sinning, when they may be doing so out of ignorance? Is it better to be “nice” (the devil’s counterfeit of love) and leave someone in their sins, or to draw their attention to it? And what do you make of Jesus’ words in Matthew 5:19—“Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven”? Aren’t you “relaxing” the Third Commandment, and justifying your doing so by calling those of us who maintain Jesus’ and the Church’s position that we should not relax them, “Pharisees”?

You wrote: “I am sure this is not what Peter intended for his church.”

I don’t think that you have any historical or Scriptural grounds to base that on—the opposite is true. The Scriptures and the writings of the Early Church Fathers show a constant battle to maintain true doctrine and oppose heresies. Relativism, which you appear to subscribe to, is a heresy. It is not compatible with Catholicism, though it fits in with Protestantism without a problem. Perhaps it would help if you read some of the papal encyclicals that deal with relativism and modernism. You might be surprised to find that the Church does not agree with you.

You wrote: " Let the righteous pretend to have authority over the will of God."

What do you mean? Are you saying that the Church has no authority to tell you to keep the Commandments? The authority given to the Church is not “pretend”–read Matthew 16. And why does it say in Hebrews 13:17, “Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account.”? Having decided for yourself that you will be the judge of what is and is not a violation of God’s law, are you now going to decide which parts of Scripture you will ignore? Who is pretending to wield authority, Santaro?

You wrote, “The God I have experienced in the Catholic church through her sacraments is one of compassion, love and mercy.”

Yes, I agree completely. The Church and her sacraments are wonderful gifts, gifts that help us grow in love and understanding. I don’t see why you are pretending that I (or any orthodox Catholic)would dispute this. Please be honest: I think you are attempting to rationalize your relativism, and since what I am saying is simply Church teaching, you are attempting to justify your relativism by pointing a finger at the Church, and trying to separate the Church from her bridegroom, Jesus. It’s an ad hominem argument, and also Scripturally flawed.
 
I do not have any idea what relativism is. I understand some of what you are saying. I love the mass and the church for the sacraments, and the message of Jesus. There is so much healing involved in confession and so much unity in the holy eucharistic communion.

I just feel something different than that. I have not read this or studied this. Yes i have read the Gospels and epistles. The message seems easy to me. Jesus came to set us free. To put us in direct contact with God. He came so that we could stand before God because he reconciled us to him. What need do we have for all these laws and customs other than for our benefit, NOT for our peril. He wants us to come to mass as often as we can because it is good for us and he loves us. He doesn’t want us to come to mass out of the threat of going to hell. Like it or not, I think that is how it sounds when you say that you are in mortal sin and will go to hell if you miss a mass.
 
Santaro,

You wrote: " What need do we have for all these laws and customs other than for our benefit, NOT for our peril".

Of course they’re for our benefit. That’s the purpose of them: God didn’t give us arbitrary Commandments just so that He could zap us if we don’t follow them. They are meant to help us.

That being said, don’t pretend that you can do away with or relax them. Again, I’ll quote Jesus’ words in Matthew 5:19—“Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven”.

You wrote: “He doesn’t want us to come to mass out of the threat of going to hell.”

That’s right! That’s exactly the point I was getting at in my response to Petra. But He wants us to observe the Third Commandment regardless of whether we feel like it or not. Obedience to God is very important, as it shows humility and a proper disposition for receiving grace.

You wrote: “Like it or not, I think that is how it sounds when you say that you are in mortal sin and will go to hell if you miss a mass.”

But I never said that (sound of head beating against wall). I said that missing Mass constituted grave matter, the first condition of mortal sin. If you disagree with that, you’re disagreeing with God and His Church, not with me. However, the second and third conditions also need to be there in order for the sin to be mortal. Just what about this do you not understand? And if you are unrepentent of mortal sin at your death, you pack yourself off to hell no matter what the mortal sin in question is. I ask you, give me one quote from Jesus where He suggests that unrepentent sinners go to heaven. I think you’ll find the opposite is true; Jesus mentions hell quite a bit for those who are unrepentent.

As for relativism, it is the idea that there is no absolute truth: what’s true for you is not necessarily true for me. You are saying this when you say, in effect, “missing Mass, in my opinion, doesn’t constitute grave matter” despite the existence of the Third Commandment—what’s true for God is not true for you.

You haven’t really addressed the points I raised, nor answered any of the questions I asked. You’re simply re-hashing the same straw-man argument that has been answered many times already.
 
Sherlock, Santaro75,

This is exactly what I meant when I said that if the Bishops qualified everything they said, people eyes would glaze over.
Unfortunately, alot of us need to go through conversations like the one you are having to come to an understanding of what mortal sin is.

I don’t think Santaro75 is in a position to understand why one mass is so mortal. (Or, for that matter, why the sin called Adams, was deadly). In some way, we are all blind, unable to see the ‘hidden Jesus’ in the eucharist. That is both a blessing and a difficulty, for people like Santaro75 it hides the magnitude of the sin , and perhaps protects them from full culpability. For me, I have read what many of the saints have said, and am aware of the necessity of mass through their eyes. Although I can’t summarize everything at once, I would humbly make this comment:

The mass is not only a personal thing. When you offer yourself in sacrifice and union with Jesus you are a channel of grace for the whole church. Communion is not only with Jesus, but all saints. To not go to mass, is to deny others the gift of your communion.

There are reasons to miss mass (eg. being sick, taking care of children, impossibility of getting there), these are not in any way sinful for it is not a denial of love. Where the sin comes in, is where selfishness (grumbling) is the motive.

e.g.
“I don’t get anything out of this so I’m not going.”
e.g. I don’t care about the others who loose grace because I do not enter the prayer of the mass.

I could list other reasons, but my post is long enough. :gopray2:

Santaro goes to daily mass, so does anyone have a comment concerning why Sunday might explicitly be required for attendance? I think that is part of this thread, but has not been explored.
 
After reflecting on this, you know what, I think we feel the same but are expressing it differently

I think that Mass is a gift that if you don’t attend regularly it would be very hard to live in grace. There for putting a barrier between you and God which constitutes a mortal sin. Mortal sin is anything that cleaves your connection to God. Anything that you do that you feel you need to hide from God and that you can not stand in front of him. The isolation is horrible. I am sure you know this as you seem more mature in your faith than me. So you confess and make good with him and you are back in grace. But it is all for the love that God has for you. He does not throw you into isolation from him, you do it yourself. But as for judgement day when God looks at your life as a whole, would he send you to eternal hell for missing mass Sunday and you die that afternoon but you have been faithful all along. I think he loves us so much he sent his son to die, I think also he can forgive after the fact and I think we can purge some sins because he can see our repentent hearts when we see him face to face. He knows us better than we know ourselves.

If I miss mass, you can not say i am in mortal sin and going to hell. Only God knows my conscience and can make that judgement. Regardless of how much you think you can because you clearly see the facts and have the Church or the scripture. You and any other person can not know what is between me and God fully.

Anyway thanks for making me examine my position on this. Now I understand how I feel much better.

thanks again
santaro
 
Forgive me if this a retread of what has already said.

Recently, Cardinal George here in Chicago was talking about this a lot. His line of reasoning was that, in heaven, we are continually devoting ourselves to the praise and worship of God for all of eternity. This is also what we do in the Mass for an hour each week here on earth. If we can’t be bothered with going to Mass each week to praise and worship God here on earth, we’d be pretty miserable doing it in heaven. Or we’d have no idea how. Something like that. (My apologies to the Cardinal if I butchered that…)
 
Santaro,

Well, we’re getting closer…

You wrote: “I think that Mass is a gift that if you don’t attend regularly it would be very hard to live in grace.”

Yes—you’ve got it. That’s true for the other sacraments as well. Let’s face it, the ability to live a vibrant, faithful, ever-perfecting Christian life is very difficult, and we need the graces that the sacraments provide. What’s more, I have found that the grace I have received from frequent and obedient participation in the sacraments has enabled me to mature in my understanding of our faith. The more I learn, the more I realize how important the Church is. And Huiou Theou’s comments are true as well: it’s not just you and Jesus: you’re part of a family and your actions have consequences, both good and bad, for the whole Body of Christ.

You wrote: “He does not throw you into isolation from him, you do it yourself.”

Bingo.

You wrote: " But as for judgement day when God looks at your life as a whole, would he send you to eternal hell for missing mass Sunday and you die that afternoon but you have been faithful all along."

Again you are automatically equating “missing Mass” with “mortal sin”. Please please please pay attention and understand Church teaching on this: deliberately missing Mass because you just don’t feel like it does indeed constitute grave matter, which is a necessary condition for a sin to be mortal. However, there are two other conditions necessary for a sin to be mortal, full knowledge and full consent.
But let’s say that indeed you somehow know that a person met all of the conditions in missing Mass and died as in your scenario above: you say that God will sortof “weigh” this action against a lifetime of faithful service. However, this is not historical Christian theology, and I hope you can see why: in essence, you are saying that we “earn” our way to heaven, with our works being weighed, the good versus the bad. This is tending towards Pelagianism, or at least semi-Pelagianism, which were condemned as heresies centuries ago. It also runs contrary to the Gospel, which teaches that we must persevere to the end. It’s the state of your soul at the moment of your death that determines your fate. I would strongly urge that you talk to a good orthodox priest about this, as you are holding positions that are very contrary to Catholicism (and I don’t think you’ll find many Protestant denominations that would agree with you either).

You wrote: “I think also he can forgive after the fact and I think we can purge some sins because he can see our repentent hearts when we see him face to face”

This is Purgatory, which will purge us of our remaining attachments to sin, among other purposes. Purgatory does not clean us of mortal sins—mortal sins sever the connection with God and by not repenting of them we will send ourselves to hell because of them. If you are suggesting that we can clean up our mortal sins after death in Purgatory, then you are departing from historical Christianity on this one. “Mortal” means “mortal”. That’s why the term “mortal” is used, not “kinda mortal”, or “pretty darn bad”.

You wrote: “I just get turned off when people Judge others.”

No one has judged you. I and others have simply repeated Church teaching. If you are denying the Church’s authority to judge, then you have a problem with Jesus and Scripture, because in Scripture Jesus clearly authorizes His Church to “bind and loose” sins. “Binding and loosing” requires judgement. Paul also tells us to reprove and correct our brothers: this is done for the person’s eternal good. Do you think it better to say nothing, if a person is doing something harmful to their spiritual life? Is that love?

You wrote: “If I miss mass, you can not say i am in mortal sin and going to hell.”

But I never said that you were. Next straw-man, please. Frankly, if you repeat this lie again, after I and others have explained this over and over and over and over and over and over and over, I’m just going to assume that you’re not serious and are simply trying to be provocative.

You wrote: “Regardless of how much you think you can because you clearly see the facts and have the Church or the scripture.”

Most Christians regard the Scriptures as the inspired Word of God: are you saying that they are not true for you? Are you pitting God against His very own Word?

Your positions are very confusing.
 
Santaro,

A few more thoughts occurred to me after I wrote the above post:

I am thinking again of your statement, "“I think also he can forgive after the fact and I think we can purge some sins because he can see our repentent hearts when we see him face to face”----what strikes me is that if you are saying God will do this with mortal sins, then you are basically positing Purgatory as a kind of “second chance”. This is just what Protestants mistakenly accuse Catholics of believing, and we have to correct this misconception. You seem to be operating under this misconception too, having a Protestant interpretation of the doctrine.

The same can be said for your thoughts regarding God weighing the good vs. bad deeds: this fits in perfectly with the Protestant misconception that Catholics believe that they “earn” heaven with their works. We have to work hard to correct this misconception as well.

What I am saying is that you apparently believe in ideas that Protestants think Catholic theology holds and teaches, when in fact it doesn’t. Again, I think you need to talk to a good orthodox priest because you are straying far, far away from your faith, at least in regards to your thinking, and you could be leading others astray with these ideas of yours.
 
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michaelp:
I was just listening to James Akin and he said something that I wonder if it represents the Catholic concensus.

He said that if a person deliberately misses mass, this person would go to Hell since he committed a mortal sin.

This confuses me. Does this mean that a person could love and follow Christ his or her entire life with devotion and sencerity, but for some “invalid” reason deliberatly miss mass and end up in hell.

Please help me here. I thought that Catholics believed in salvation by grace. I don’t know if this is true–but a poll about “surprised by hell” on this web also seems to suggest that this is what Catholics believe forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=23173.

If this is true, how can this be grace (“a gift” or “unmerited favor”)? How is this not legalism?

Please help me.

Michael
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Catholisism is much more complex than this. Doctrines fit together so that all things make sense. The Catholic Church teaches that if you deliberatel skip mass, with full knowledge of the truth, and you are not repentant, you will go to hell. This is because by skipping mass, you are rejecting Christ, and consequently the Father.

The mass is considered to be the highest worship of God. It is the time of the week when the heavens come down and touch the earth. It is our chance to participate in the worship of God with the saints and angels.

Catholics also teach that God is mercyfull, so if you are repentant, then you are forgiven. The teaching of forgiveness is that you are forgiven as soon as you are repentant of your sins, with reference to the knowledge that you will confess your sins as soon as you can.

There is no contradiction with grace in this. Each of us has free will to accept the grace that God gives us. By skipping mass we are rejecting the unmerrited grace that God gives us. God continues to grace us though, repentance is the acceptance of this grace.

It’s not a matter of legalism, it is a matter of accepting God or rejecting Him. It is not that you will go to hell if you do this, and you won’t if you do this. It is all about the acceptance or rejection of the unmerited grace of God.
 
Well that is too bad. I don’t think I said any of those things you are. I don’t believe that good works get us into heaven above and beyond the grace given through faith. But the two go hand in hand and Jesus said that. Works are evidence of true faith. I am saying that God is going to judge us on the entire content of our souls NOT one incident that may be based on human emotion or it was plain and simply a mistake or an error in judgement.

God exposes our sin and if we are repentant, why would he not cleanse us with fire and bring us home. Yes if you are not marked then you do not need to go through the cleansing.

Look, I don’t even understand what you are talking about a lot of the time. maybe you can dumb it down for me so that I can understand.
 
A Catholic who accepts Jesus as his or her “Lord” and “Savior” will not go to hell. If that person has truly accepted Jesus as Lord, God will ensure that they are found in a state of sanctifying grace at the moment of death. They may backslide and be disobedient during life. They may fall into mortal sin, but if they are in Christ, they will repent, and return to a state of sanctifying grace.

So yes, a Catholic can believe in “once saved always saved,” but does not understand this the same way a Calvinist evangelical protestant would, which for some may be indistinguishable from the sin of presumption.
 
Santaro,

You wrote: “I am saying that God is going to judge us on the entire content of our souls NOT one incident that may be based on human emotion or it was plain and simply a mistake or an error in judgement.”

We will be judged, and if we are in a state of UNREPENTED mortal sin, we will send ourselves to hell. Mortal sin separates us from God. End of story. Again, you give me conditions (human emotion, simple mistake or error in judgement) that would probably affect the full consent and full knowledge conditions of a mortal sin, which reduce our culpability (no one can “accidentally” commit a mortal sin). Since I have repeated that those conditions are necessary (along with grave matter) over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over, would you please stop pretending that I am unaware of them and give me some indication that you are reading what I and others have written. Sorry for sounding snappish, but my patience is wearing thin from having to repeat myself. You haven’t answered the questions I’ve asked, and this post, as the others, makes it appear that you haven’t read or understood the previous posts.

You wrote: “God exposes our sin and if we are repentant…”

Yes! Finally! You just mentioned the necessary element for forgiveness: REPENTENCE. Thank you, thank you, thank you. As I have said many, many times, it is dying in a state of UNREPENTED mortal sin that will send us to hell.

What 4 Marks said is true: “They may fall into mortal sin, but if they are in Christ, they will repent, and return to a state of sanctifying grace.” Key word: REPENT. However, don’t take 4 Marks words as a presumption of God’s grace (presumption being a bad thing)—but I don’t think 4 Marks is doing that.
 
"Will you really go to hell for deliberatly missing mass"

Mortal sin = Grave matter, full knowledge, full consent.

I tend to think of the answer to this question as follows:

When one comes to a more true understanding of the true significance of Mass and trhe Eucharist, one would chose never to “deliberately” miss it.

Therefore anyone who poses the question is either not in *full *knowledge or full consent. Therefore my understanding of this would be that this person is in fact not in mortal sin. Of course this could bring up the question; “is ignorance bliss”? I’d say no, certainly not. I would never chose to pass up my love of the Mass and the Eucharist for ignorance to it’s full wonder.

One would not “deliberatley miss Mass” anymore then one would deliberatley chose not to drink a cool glass of water when very thirsty on a hot day.
 
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michaelp:
Is it possible for a person to repent in hell? In other words, think if a person who committed a mortal sin (missed mass) because he was angry with God that day, died immediately after the sin, and even though he has been a follower and lover of God all his life, he is suffering eternally in hell. Has this guy or gal suddenly become a eternal hater of God? Or do you think he can come to his senses shortly after waking up in hell, realize what he did, and then wish that he had repented? But, even though he did well and loved the Lord his entire life, he was still bound to the fate of that one sin? Or do you think that one mortal sin (such as missing mass) turned him into an eternal hater of God?
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God is Truth, not some abstract concept in one’s head that makes you feel good about yourself. “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other.” (Matthew 6:24) Those in hell are there because they chose to serve themselves over serving God, who is Truth.

Jesus’ demands for discipleship are very high: “If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:26) Those are the words of Jesus, not my own. If you choose to serve your own will over the will of God, are you are disciple of Jesus? If your answer is YES, then I’d ask you to re-read the gospels.
 
Mijoy2 said:
"Will you really go to hell for deliberatly missing mass"

Mortal sin = Grave matter, full knowledge, full consent.

I tend to think of the answer to this question as follows:

When one comes to a more true understanding of the true significance of Mass and trhe Eucharist, one would chose never to “deliberately” miss it.

Therefore anyone who poses the question is either not in *full *knowledge or full consent. Therefore my understanding of this would be that this person is in fact not in mortal sin. Of course this could bring up the question; “is ignorance bliss”? I’d say no, certainly not. I would never chose to pass up my love of the Mass and the Eucharist for ignorance to it’s full wonder.

One would not “deliberatley miss Mass” anymore then one would deliberatley chose not to drink a cool glass of water when very thirsty on a hot day.
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This is perfect. Full knowledge would make missing mass indeed a mortal sin but it would take more effort to sin than not to sin because with the full knowledge of the mass, you are compelled to go.

thanks

ps. I know this is probably what you were saying in the first place Sherlock.
 
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michaelp:
This is just not true. I can see how, from the outside looking in, it might be a stumbling block to the Gospel, but it is a misunderstanding of the changed nature that a person undergoes. When God changes your nature the “new man” desires to follow the Lord. If one were to change from a dog to a man, sure the man can go on and continue to bark and eat dog food, but he does not have to anymore, and why would he want to?

As Martin Luther said to a person who objected to his teaching on justification by faith alone saying, “if justification is by faith alone, then a person can do whatever he pleases.” To which Martin Luther responded, “this is true, now what pleases YOU!”

Our pleasures change because we have a new nature, being reconciled to our relationship with God.

Michael
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This is false because to say that it is faith alone that saves means that it does not matter what you do. Faith is belief and mental ascent to something that you can not prove. It has nothing to do with a change in heart or anything. As James says, “faith without works is dead”.and " Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?"

Jesus said, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in: " and "Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink.

Are you telling me that you have not sinned since you became a devout Christian? If you have sinned you have gone against God, if you claim to not have sinned then you are lying to yourself. Sin is rejection of God. I have faith in God, but I will admitt that I sin often.

Works do not mean that you have to do a certain number of works and you will be saved. It means that you must change your life so that you are willing to do the works that Christ exhorts us to do.
 
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santaro75:
This is perfect. Full knowledge would make missing mass indeed a mortal sin but it would take more effort to sin than not to sin because with the full knowledge of the mass, you are compelled to go.

thanks

ps. I know this is probably what you were saying in the first place Sherlock.
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That is true. There may be some people though that have full knowledge of the mass but do not like the truth. By refusing to go to mass you are deliberately refusing God.
 
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Sherlock:
Part of the talk comments upon the meaning of “law”, which is why it is relevant to what you and others have posted. In short, the key is to be found in Jesus’ words in Matthew 5: 17-48. Read the whole passage. There Jesus mentions the Law in its external observance, but He goes further and demands an internal observance. He raises the bar, so to speak. As in the example I gave some posts ago, the law remains but its perfect fulfillment is in internal conversion: I don’t need the law anymore to tell me to go to Mass—I WANT to go, because I have grown enough to see it for the tremendous gift that it is (receiving Jesus in the Eucharist, the most intimate union I can have in this life). . . .
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Jesus definitely raises the bar and illuminates the fact that sin is in the heart and is not always exclusively external and visible to others. The Jews had become accustomed to following the letter of the law externally and were entirely ignoring the internal observance, as you put it. They were so proud of themselves that they were righteous, but Jesus’ point was that true righteousness goes far beyond the externals. One’s inner world of motives, thoughts, and affections reveal the true condition of the spirit.

But to bring this around to the topic at hand, the question is not what constitues sin. The question is what are the consequences of a particular sin. Is it venial or mortal? Either way, sin is wrong and God’s commandments are not optional. Being anxious is a sin (Matt. 6:25-34). It is not merely “suggested” that we not be anxious. But is anxiety a mortal sin? In the same way, we are discussing whether missing a single mass rises to the level of seriousness of being a mortal sin.
Many Protestants conveniently take Paul’s words about the law in isolation from the rest of Scripture, and use it to bang the Church over the head, claiming that the Church’s laws are somehow an artificial impediment to faith, as opposed to what they are: a loving God’s direction to His children.
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Well, not being a Protestant, I can’t speak for them. But I see the Church’s disciplines as being positive means of spiritual growth. This certainly includes going to Mass.
When we mature, we will see that direction as a gift, not as some empty law. It’s really very analogous to children’s views about their parents’ “laws”—when we mature, we see their value and live by them, not because we’re afraid of being grounded, but because we are finally able to see them as gifts which enabled us to become adults. Their “law” has become fulfilled when we become “righteous”, but the law was necessary and helpful to us in attaining that righteousness. Just look at a person who hasn’t been raised with any limits, and you’ll see a kid who hasn’t grown up and will still need external laws (and will probably break them) into adulthood.
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Again, there is no argument from me that the Church’s laws are meaningful. I see them as being necessary for proper formation. But, to use the analogy of earthly parent/child relationships, you don’t see a parent disowning a child for disobedience (unless is it so severe that the parents’ life is in danger or the child has become sociopathic). Disciplining a child is one thing. Terminating the relationship is entirely different. In fact, God’s discipline is proof that we have a relationship with Him. (Hebrews 12:4-11) Again, the issue of this thread is the consequences of a particular sin. Discipline or the termination of the relationship? I do not understand the basis for God terminating His relationship with someone who misses mass once. I do see it as being a cause for discipline–because He loves us and wants us to grow closer to Him.
 
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jimmy:
That is true. There may be some people though that have full knowledge of the mass but do not like the truth. By refusing to go to mass you are deliberately refusing God.
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I’ve been acquiring the writings of the Church Fathers recently, and just the other night I started reading the letters of Ignatius of Antioch. In his Epistle to the Ephesians, writting wile he was being transported to Rome for execution (110 AD), he briefly discusses this very issue:
CHAPTER V.–THE PRAISE OF UNITY. For if I in this brief space of time, have enjoyed such fellowship with your bishop–I mean not of a mere human, but of a spiritual nature–how much more do I reckon you happy who are so joined to him as the Church is to Jesus Christ, and as Jesus Christ is to the Father, that so all things may agree in unity! Let no man deceive himself: if any one be not within the altar, he is deprived of the bread of God. For if the prayer of one or two possesses such power, how much more that of the bishop and the whole Church ! He, therefore, that does not assemble with the Church, has even by this manifested his pride, and condemned himself. For it is written, “God resisteth the proud.” Let us be careful, then, not to set ourselves in opposition to the bishop, in order that we may be subject to God. [emphasis mine]
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It is interesting to note that for at least 1900 years, the Church has stressed the importance of not missing Mass. Ignatius states that one condemns oneself in doing so, through the sin of pride.
 
Petra,

You wrote: “I do not understand the basis for God terminating His relationship with someone who misses mass once.”

I will have to simply repeat myself again: what makes a sin mortal is not QUANTITY, but three conditions: 1-grave matter; 2-full knowledge, and 3-full consent. That missing Mass constitutes objectively grave matter is Church teaching. This is based on the Ten Commandments (and I would also add Jesus’s words in Matthew 5:19—“Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven”). Obviously the other two conditions relate to the culpability, and therefore missing Mass because because one didn’t realize that it was an obligation to do so would not be a mortal sin. It has NOTHING to do with quantity, and when you start stressing the quantity aspect you are straying into Pelagianism or semi-Pelagianism, as it suggests that heaven is attained simply by doing more good things than bad, as if there was a heavenly scale. If you are denying the Church’s authority to declare what is or is not mortal sin, then you are denying the Scriptures, as Jesus gives the authority to bind and loose sins. In that case, you are a Protestant who happens to go to Mass.

I really don’t want to have to repeat myself on this topic yet again, so I’d appreciate it if you would read the responses on this thread that addressed this.
 
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