Question for Catholics: Will you really go to hell for deliberatly missing mass?

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Question for Catholics: Will you really go to hell for deliberatly missing mass?
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Just to be practical:
Let us say that NO Catholic went to Mass diliberately for let us say 1 year. Let us also realize that most of the support of the True Church of Christ comes from these people via a collection plate only at Mass attendence…a fact of life.

What would happen, in a practical sense to the Church’s mission ability to Teach, Convert, to Rule and to Sanctify?

Correct!
It would destroy the Church’s mission on earth.
Ergo, all are required to attend Mass on obligatory days. Not attending contributes not to Her support, but to Her destruction.
VERY serious…Mortal in fact.

A supplementary precept is to “contribute to the support of the Church”. But people don’t do that when that don’t even attend the place of collection for that support…a fact of life.

This may sound materialistic, but it can only be true.

In addition, the Church cannot Sanctify if one is not there to be sanctified.

Then there is the 3rd commandment in the Catholic Church:
Remember to keep holy the Lord’s Day. The Church defines that as Worship in and through the Mass…

No, I haven’t read any of the other posts.
 
TNT,

Just a clarification: Christ promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. Therefore, even in your scenario the Church’s mission would not be destroyed.
 
mtr01 wrote

"Hi petra,

I don’t want you to take this the wrong way, but I understand where Sherlock was coming from. One of the things I noticed was that you referred to the 4th Commandment. Now, you mentioned that you weren’t aware of alot of things about Catholicism. One of these things is that non-Catholics number the Commandment differently - the commandment you refer to is the 3rd for Catholics. This made me think that you were Protestant as well"

Non-catholics number the commandments differently because it’s in the Bible that way.

4 commandment.
Exodus 20:4 **Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: **
Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
Exodus 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

4th Commandment
Deuteronomy 5:8 Thou shalt not make thee [any] graven image, [or] any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the waters beneath the earth:
Deuteronomy 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me,
Deuteronomy 5:10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
 
I don’t recall Jesus ever saying that you must go to mass or you will be damned to hell. The salvation that he promises seems to be more tied to the work he does to you internally. I don’t see how a church can decide that if you miss mass you are in mortal sin. The church used to also say that if you ate meat on fridays that was a mortal sin. YET there are examples where Jesus broke tradition.

I think it is important for the church to understand that it and its traditions are here for man, not the other way around.
 
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TNT:
Just to be practical:
Let us say that NO Catholic went to Mass diliberately for let us say 1 year. Let us also realize that most of the support of the True Church of Christ comes from these people via a collection plate only at Mass attendence…a fact of life.

Correct!
It would destroy the Church’s mission on earth.
Ergo, all are required to attend Mass on obligatory days. Not attending contributes not to Her support, but to Her destruction.
VERY serious…Mortal in fact.

A supplementary precept is to “contribute to the support of the Church”. But people don’t do that when that don’t even attend the place of collection for that support…a fact of life.

This may sound materialistic, but it can only be true.
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I may have read this wrong, but are you now saying that a Catholic will go to hell for not giving money to the Catholic Church? Do you really believe that God is like that? What is grace?

Michael
 
Alfredo,

In your hypothetical, it is highly, highly unlikely that the second person – the drunken, wife-beating, pornography-consuming, bank-robbing criminal, would end up in heaven. At least, not right away. I think he would have a VERY long, VERY intense stay in Purgatory – probably until the Resurrection. (And no Sabbatine Privelege for him, since he probably doesn’t have a devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary through the brown scapular.)

However, to get into Purgatory, he would have to respond to God’s grace. With a life like that, his heart would probably be so hardened that he would rather go to hell than confess to God. So I doubt that an earthly return to grace would occur. Perhaps at the moment of death itself; no doubt God would make one last attempt to get through, and only He knows how intense is the shower of grace that He offers. So a conversion at the moment of death is possible, but I wouldn’t bet my hopes on it. And again, the best he would get is a long, painful stay in Purgatory.

The first person would be much, much more likely to benefit from the last offer of repentance at the moment of death. If he went to an SSPX [M]*** because he is angry with some of the things that are happening (or not happening) in the Church, then arguably he is devoted to the Church, even if that devotion does not always take the best form.

So while your hypotheticals do contain some plausibility, I think that they are much more likely to work out the other way.
 
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worm:
mtr01 wrote

Non-catholics number the commandments differently because it’s in the Bible that way.
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Actually, the Ten Commandments aren’t numbered in the Bible in any way. That is, the chapter and verse designations were added in the middle ages. This is why the argument that Catholics number “differently” to hide graven images is particularly dorky. It seems to spring from the mentality that God dropped a complete, fully numbered KJV from space directly into the hands of the Reformers.

Scott
 
Michaelp,

You’re just being provocative, right? I mean, you’re not really asking that question in good faith, are you? Amazing how you don’t address the points here that orthodox Catholics raise, but instead zoom in on one post that is a bit off the wall, and question that.

You’re not acting in good faith, Michael, and it’s becoming more apparent with more exposure to your posts.
 
No, I have just keep up on the thread and was very surprisized at the answer about the money. You admit it was “off the wall” too. It was a sincere question to follow up on TNTs statement.

But in thuth, as “off the wall as it is,” it is no more so than that you would believe that a person could go to hell for missing the sabbath just one time. I am saddend that you can see God in such a way and fail to understand grace. And don’t say that you understand grace . . . this is not grace.

I believe that we love the same Christ, but I also believe that you have a terrible misunderstanding of Him and, with due respect, you sound no different than the pharisees of Christ’s day who just did not get it.

Sorry to be so harsh, but this seems inescapable.

Hope you have a good saturday,

Michael
 
Santaro,

You wrote: “I don’t recall Jesus ever saying that you must go to mass or you will be damned to hell.”

Funny, I don’t recall Jesus specifically saying that rape was wrong; that driving a car over school kids was wrong; that using a baseball bat as a weapon to beat someone up was wrong (or that beating people up was wrong); that euthanasia was wrong; that abortion was wrong; that flying planes into buildings was wrong…I guess all of those are A-OK then, using your logic.

This is a poor argument. Try again.

You wrote: “The salvation that he promises seems to be more tied to the work he does to you internally.”

We are saved by grace, yes. But we are called to cooperate with that grace.

You wrote: “I don’t see how a church can decide that if you miss mass you are in mortal sin.”

Then read your Bible and find out how. Jesus founded a Church, and gave that Church the power to bind and loose sins. It is logically necessary that the authority to determine what is and what is not a sin is part of that authority: you can’t “bind or loose” a sin unless you know if it is a sin or not.

You wrote: “The church used to also say that if you ate meat on fridays that was a mortal sin.”

This has been covered elsewhere on the forum—perhaps you could read those threads.

You wrote: “YET there are examples where Jesus broke tradition”

That is true, but not because “breaking tradition” was a good in and of itself. Usually it was to point out some truth that had been forgotten or misused in the tradition. There is no indication that Jesus ignored observing public worship: quite the opposite, as He was an observant Jew.

You wrote: “I think it is important for the church to understand that it and its traditions are here for man, not the other way around.”

I think she knows that quite well. And I think it is important for man not to rationalize his behavior when rejecting God’s Church.
 
Michaelp,

You wrote: “But in thuth, as “off the wall as it is,” it is no more so than that you would believe that a person could go to hell for missing the sabbath just one time.”

Have you not read any of the responses here? Clearly you haven’t, or you wouldn’t come up with this again. Let me state it very clearly: what sends a person to hell is their serious (mortal)rejection of God. As you know from reading Scripture, there is sin that is mortal (1 Jn 5:16-17) which turns man away from God. If a person dies unrepentent while in the state of that separation and rejection, it is that state of separation and rejection that sends a person to hell—or, rather, the person chooses hell by their rejection of God. Since Scripture speaks of mortal sins, it then behooves one to know what those sins are and avoid them as being contrary to the life of a Christian aiming to grow in perfection of love of God. The Church has this authority given to her by virtue of the binding and loosing authority given to her by Jesus. The Church has determined three conditions for mortal sin: 1-grave matter; 2-full knowledge; and 3-full consent. The Ten Commandments form a basis for determining grave matter (and yes, within that category the gravity of sins is more or less great)—you have chosen to pick and choose which ones you will follow, but we see them as Commandments, not suggestions.

You wrote: “I am saddend that you can see God in such a way and fail to understand grace. And don’t say that you understand grace . . . this is not grace.”

I am saddened that you don’t understand Catholicism, but continue to set up straw men to attack, presumably to affirm yourself in your misconceptions. I’m saddened that you have such a poverty-stricken concept of the Christian life, one that sees the gifts that Jesus gives the Church as “rules” instead of what they are, aids given freely to us along the way as we mature and progress in our Christian life. You’re like a teenager who rebels against his parents, unable to see their love and choosing only to see that their “rules”, man, get in the way of their “freedom”. God loves you, Michael, and wants you to grow up and develop a mature faith. God founded His Church to give us wonderful means of grace to aid us on the way: you’re just looking at those aids as a child would.
 
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Sherlock:
The Ten Commandments form a basis for determining grave matter (and yes, within that category the gravity of sins is more or less great)—you have chosen to pick and choose which ones you will follow, but we see them as Commandments, not suggestions.
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Sherlock, I haven’t seen anyone in this thread say the 10 commandments are suggestions. I think we all agree that violating them is sin. The question at hand is whether a sin is mortal or not. When you say that “the gravity of sins is more or less great” with regard to the 10 commandments, are you saying there are instances in which a violation may be only venial or are you saying that all violations of the 10 commandments are mortal and there are varying degrees of severity within the mortal category? Is it a mortal sin to speak a sharp word to a parent? Is it a mortal sin to wish we were a little thinner than our best friend? These are certainly sins, but do all violations of the 10 commandments rise to the level of grave matter?
 
Petra,

No one has directly said that the Ten Commandments are suggestions, but when one chooses to be pope and decide for oneself if and how one is going to observe them, then they become, for all practical purposes, suggestions open to subjective interpretations as opposed to commandments.

You ask, “When you say that “the gravity of sins is more or less great” with regard to the 10 commandments, are you saying there are instances in which a violation may be only venial or are you saying that all violations of the 10 commandments are mortal and there are varying degrees of severity within the mortal category?”

There are venial sins which fall under particular commandments—for example, if I am occasionally irritable with my parents I am not treating them with honor as I should, but it is venial, not grave, matter (if left unrepented, however, I am disposing myself for worse infractions and am certainly not progressing towards the perfection that Jesus asks). If I neglected them in their old age and left them to fend for themselves on the street, then that would be grave matter!

The examination of conscience booklet by Fr. Altier is helpful in that it goes through the Ten Commandments twice: once under the “mortal” category, again under the “venial” category.

What I specifically meant, however, was that within the category of mortal sins there are greater and lesser degrees, so to speak: it is worse to kill a person than to steal large quantities of money and property from him, though both are mortal sins. Look at paragraph 1858 in the Catechism for more guidance (better yet, read the whole section on sin—you’ll deepen your understanding of just what sin is).

Some of this is simply common sense—don’t let yourself be bogged down. An easy way to simply avoid the temptation of bogging yourself down in details is to really try to grow and develop in your love for God: since confessing our sins (mortal and venial) is pleasing to Him and beneficial to us, why not simply make a habit of frequent confession? A sign of increasing spiritual maturity is the ability to see confession as the great gift that it is, and the desire to partake of that gift of grace frequently.

Don’t settle for a minimalist Christian life. When you partake of the sacraments frequently and with an open heart, you will see your attitudes changing and you will see what I mean with the “eat your vegetables” analogy I gave you earlier. Your Mother the Church knows best. This change in attitude (and the corresponding growth in your Christian life) will not happen—or at best will happen much more slowly—if you only do what you feel like doing when you feel like doing it (an immature faith); or if you view your Mother as a tyrant with rules designed to keep you from having fun and freedom (also immature).

Again, I would highly recommend that CD set by Christopher West.
 
Church Militant:
This thread may also offer some insight.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=22511
also I have posted this original post from Michaelp into the AAA forum so that we can get a more theological answer for him instead of his ongoing assault on us straw men
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Michael, you turn a sincere inquiry into a basis for “assult.” If you see it as such, fine. But don’t question my motives, for you don’t know them. I have not posted on this thread in months. If you read through my previous posts you would see that, while I do think it is immature and childish for the Magisterium to treat you like children and lay down rules of eternal damnation that totally, IMHO, in all practicallity, deny one of God’s greatest attribute–Grace–I did not in any way attack this doctrine. Now, people have encouraged me through PM to be more forthright in my posts lately. I do not think that it is necessary to attack since the arguments themselves will be ultimately persuasive. But that is exactly how it is.

It is a foregone conclusion that Protestant disagree with the Catholic belief that missing Church will send you to hell. Once TNT stated that not giving money to the Church was the principle basis for sending someone to hell, I came back in to claify. I don’t know if you know the answer to this question, but to label this as in assult is of your own making.

I REALLY did not believe that Roman Catholics believed that not going to Church was a mortal sin that could send someone to hell. Now I do. Having said that, I am much more opposed to the Roman Catholic faith than I have ever been, because it totally misrepresent God and makes Him petty–and the Bible does not!

However, our strong and serious disagreements do not mean that we cannot have meaningful conversation. I will move on from here, but I did start this thread out of a sincere desire to learn. I have learned, and I don’t need to learn any more on this subject. I know understand EXACTLY what you believe about this and my disagreement could not be stronger.

Galatians 3:1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed *as *crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain-- if indeed it was in vain? 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith

Have a good day my friend. Even though we disagree strongly, I am glad that you are willing to continue to converse on thse matters.

Michael
 
BTW: I don’t believe that the Roman Catholic belief in the “moral” sin of missing mass will send you to Hell, even though it obviously adds works to salvation.

I believe that it is faith alone that saves, but some people who are saved do not believe in faith alone. They will find this out when they get to heaven. Although, having said this, I do believe that, in confession, to say that one goes to hell for missing Church is a denial of the Gospel itself.

Michael
 
MY point is that you have no better undersranding now than you did at the beginning, and that you continue to base your opposition to Catholicism on that lack of understanding. You maintain that you want to understand and yet fail to ask the one real source of accurate info from whom you can get clear answers and persist in useless discourse with rank and file Catholics whom are not qualified to handle your theological debates.

I’ve told you many times before that you are talking to the wrong people about these things and that as a result your stand concerning our most holy faith is still based on things that we are not able to clearly get accross to you. That’s what I mean by using us as your straw men. It’s not the Catholic Church that has failed to convince you Mike…it’s the inability of her children to express what we understand in a way that you can get a grip on. In the end, it’s as if we are talking in two different languages. And we are no closer to understanding now than when you first joined us.

He is Risen! Gloria in excelsis Deo!
Pax vobiscum,
 
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michaelp:
BTW: **I don’t believe **that the Roman Catholic belief in the “moral” sin of missing mass will send you to Hell, even though it obviously adds works to salvation.

** I believe** that it is faith alone that saves, but some people who are saved do not believe in faith alone. They will find this out when they get to heaven. Although, having said this, I do believe that, in confession, to say that one goes to hell for missing Church is a denial of the Gospel itself.

Michael
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Which is what I said all along. It’s what YOU believe or don’t is all that matters. Call it “moral certainty” or any other name. Nothing more than Human faith.
Human faith is not the Gospel. Man had that long before the Gospel arrived.
You believe only the limit of your rational mind. That will not save you. If you are saved, it wil be in spite of it.
One must wonder what you will believe in the future as you gather more rational (name removed by moderator)uts and forget or discard old ones.
Jn20: 19 Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace be to you. 20 And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord.21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me,** I also send you**. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
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In the end: “If you love me, keep My commandments.” Not yours, His.
“Whatsoever you bind on earth, shall be bound in Heaven.”

We are being bound to Attend Mass on the Lord’s Day. It is therefore bound in Heaven.
If there is no consequence fom the binding, what would be the use in binding? None at all.
 
Michaelp,

You wrote: " If you read through my previous posts you would see that, while I do think it is immature and childish for the Magisterium to treat you like children and lay down rules of eternal damnation that totally, IMHO, in all practicallity, deny one of God’s greatest attribute–Grace–I did not in any way attack this doctrine"

This is rather humorous: if you think it “immature and childish” for the Magisterium to “lay down rules”, I wonder what you think of God? Is He immature and childish because He gave you Ten Commandments? Who is being childish here—God and His Church, or you who rebel against the “rules” as a child does, and then rationalizes that rebellion? If one doesn’t want to be treated as a child, it usually helps to stop acting like one. And none of this denies God’s grace. You are childishly misinterpreting God’s mercy and grace just as a child would: “my parents won’t punish me because no matter what I do, they love me unconditionally”. A good parent (God the Father, not God my best buddy) disciplines those He loves, and yes, sets down “rules” which we in our childishness often want to rebel against. Grow up, mature in your faith, and the “rules” are replaced by love: we obey, not because we are told to and will be punished, but because we desire the good. That’s hard to see when one is still a child and still needs to be told what to do and, yes, the consequences of disobeying. When one stops arguing about what is and is not grave matter (presumably to be let off the hook and obtain “wiggle room”) and actively obeys the commandments out of love of God, one has begun to mature. In the meantime, obey the rules even if you’re not yet developed enough to see their objective value. You’re still in the childish phase of seeing all of this as “rules” which restrict your freedom. You rationalize this (just as kids do) by pointing a finger at the Church and saying, “My Mother just doesn’t get it, man. She doesn’t understand me. She’s always trying to drag me down with her rules, man”.

You wrote: “It is a foregone conclusion that Protestant disagree with the Catholic belief that missing Church will send you to hell.”

No, dying in a state of unrepented mortal sin will send you to hell—how often do people have to restate this? Hello? Hello? Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp? Do you think that you can do anything you want without having to repent of your sins? My, I can see the appeal of Evangelicalism…

“Faith alone” is a man-made doctrine. I’m sure that other threads have covered this, and I suspect that many posters have already attempted to explain Catholic doctrine to you in vain, so I’m not going to waste my time typing about this one. Frankly, having engaged in conversation with you before, it is becoming clear that you don’t really want answers to your questions. You’re not really sincere: you have your misconceptions about Catholicism, and you’re going to stick with them no matter what is said. And—bonus, dude!—you’re likely to come across some ignorant or dissident Catholics here that might even bolster your view. You can always ignore the orthodox Catholics and just focus on the tangents afforded by those who aren’t.
 
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Sherlock:
Michaelp,

This is rather humorous: if you think it “immature and childish” for the Magisterium to “lay down rules”, I wonder what you think of God? Is He immature and childish because He gave you Ten Commandments? Who is being childish here—God and His Church, or you who rebel against the “rules” as a child does, and then rationalizes that rebellion? If one doesn’t want to be treated as a child, it usually helps to stop acting like one. And none of this denies God’s grace. You are childishly misinterpreting God’s mercy and grace just as a child would: “my parents won’t punish me because no matter what I do, they love me unconditionally”. A good parent (God the Father, not God my best buddy) disciplines those He loves, and yes, sets down “rules” which we in our childishness often want to rebel against. Grow up, mature in your faith, and the “rules” are replaced by love: we obey, not because we are told to and will be punished, but because we desire the good. That’s hard to see when one is still a child and still needs to be told what to do and, yes, the consequences of disobeying. When one stops arguing about what is and is not grave matter (presumably to be let off the hook and obtain “wiggle room”) and actively obeys the commandments out of love of God, one has begun to mature. In the meantime, obey the rules even if you’re not yet developed enough to see their objective value. You’re still in the childish phase of seeing all of this as “rules” which restrict your freedom. You rationalize this (just as kids do) by pointing a finger at the Church and saying, “My Mother just doesn’t get it, man. She doesn’t understand me. She’s always trying to drag me down with her rules, man”.
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There is a few BIG differences between disobeying parents and your views on God.
  1. First and foremost, my mother would NOT SEND ME TO HELL for disobeying her rules.
  2. Christians obey God because His Law is written on their heart, with no abiding threat of eternal Hell if you disobey. There is no freedom in this and God wants us to freely obey him. Just like my mom does not still threaten me with grounding if I don’t follow the PRINCIPLE which she taught me. She just expects me to follow the principles because I know understand them. Does your mom still ground your for things you do wrong? If not, why?
We are under Grace which means that we follow the Lord because we have a new nature. We don’t have the threat of Hell abiding on us for not going to Church.

**Romans 6:15-18 **15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone *as *slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
 
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