Question for LDS about 3 Nehpi

[RebeccaJ]

Ah…limiting God…picking and choosing what God is able to do…got it.

I choose to believe God is all-powerful and that His ways are not our ways.

If God chooses to give the same words or close to the same words…or if God chooses to create the world…or turn into bread…or rise from the dead (people say THAT is improbable and impossible too…) so be it…God can do as God wants. I am sure he does not need our approval

Aliens built the pyramids, too. That you and I don’t believe they did, doesn’t mak it so, and limits the abilities of aliens.

Meaningless.

 

[TexanKnight]

Salutations.
This is true. While science was discovering atoms in Russia and bombs, America was discovering the same thing. It was before the phone. Now, it was awhile since I helped my daughter, who is 31, with that assignment. But, discovery, of same subjects are going on all the time. Spiritually, communication with God is broader. Many of us are blessed with messages from God. Errors can occur with the interference of the enemy.
The bases for this dialogue, is Mormonism a cult?
Polygamy, to me, is a joke. I would be going to hell for murdering my husband and second wife. Is Jesus the Messiah? Is the Bible accepted as true? Is the BOM more important than the Bible? What does the BOM provide for you that the BIBLE doesn’t give you? Their is an original text that is not easy to get to. The granddaughter of Brigham Young left Mormonism after reading it. I’m sorry, I forgot the issue. Google granddaughter of B. Young left Mormonism.
Why did the Bible not write of the missing years? Why would it be wrong to write if Jesus was married and had children?
The Gnostic Gospels have Jesus as a toddler. They have the escape into Egypt. There is a footprint on a rock that folklore has as the footprint of the child, Jesus. He pushed a friend off a roof, and the kid died. But, Jesus brought him back to life. I don’t think he could play with Jesus, again.
So, what do we believe? As a teenager, he was in the carpenter shop helping his father in the Bible. I guess He could bilocate and visit the Indians in America?
No answers. Just questions. I stand on the rock of Jesus Christ. If he had a bloodline, I am a desendent
Funny, huh.
in Christ’s love
Tweedlealice

All faiths have issues that could be considered a joke. All faiths have had people leave it for various reasons.

If one were to list issues against the Catholic Church as you did against the LDS Church, they would be suspended or banned. Suffice to say it is not hard to find issues in any Church.

Hence, I have stated over and over that it is better to revel in our common ground.

 

[TexanKnight]

Aliens built the pyramids, too. That you and I don’t believe they did, doesn’t mak it so, and limits the abilities of aliens.

Meaningless.

perhaps…but I do not equate limiting God with limiting aliens…I do not believe God and Aliens have the same abilities and power…do you?

 

[Chris-WA]

**Deuteronomy 18:15,19 (KJV) **
15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Acts 3:22-26 (KJV)
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

3 Nephi 20:23-26
23 Behold, I am he of whom Moses spake, saying: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

And it shall come to pass that every soul who will not hear that prophet shall be cut off from among the people.

24 Verily I say unto you, yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have testified of me.

25 And behold, ye are the children of the prophets; and ye are of the house of Israel; and ye are of the covenant which the Father made with your fathers, saying unto Abraham: And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26 The Father having raised me up unto you first, and sent me to bless you in turning away every one of you from his iniquities; and this because ye are the children of the covenant—

I came across this interesting similarity between the Book of Mormon passage from 3 Nephi and Peter’s words in the Book of Acts. Then I compared the passage from the BOM and Deuteronomy and the BOM passage is very close to what Peter said and so much to what Moses said. Also The Book of Mormon mentions Samuel, someone who probably was not alive or if he was could not have been known to the people of the BOM.

My issue is that this passage from Nephi is a paraphrase of Acts and mentions a man who was not known to the author of the this passage.

You have not even scratched the surface my friend. The Book of Mormon is not real scripture. It was written by Joseph Smith from sources he had available to him at the time. About 25% of the content comes right from the King James Bible, or more precisely, a 1769 edition of the KJV. One way we know this is because the same errors of the 1769 KJV also appear in the BoM. If the BoM was true scripture you certainly wouldn’t expect to find that! Joseph “borrows” entire passages, changes the names, and puts them into the BoM. There are so many obvious examples they are too numerous to list them here. It’s not a case of God revealing the same ideas to the new world (BoM) as He did to the old (Bible) as some LDS would claim. The truth is that Joseph copied stories, passages, motifs, etc from the Bible and put them into the BoM. I did a thread about this last year and if you read through my posts you will find many examples here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=959147

What you won’t find in that thread are any good answers from LDS posters to this problem, because there are not any good answers other than the undeniable fact that Joseph wrote the BoM. It is the only tenable conclusion given the vast amount of evidence available. All one has to do is avail themselves of the information.

A good source for this material was Grant Palmer’s book An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins. I highly recommend you pick up a copy as it does a very good job addressing this particular problem along with many other foundational claims of the LDS church.

 

[TexanKnight]

You have not even scratched the surface my friend. The Book of Mormon is not real scripture. It was written by Joseph Smith from sources he had available to him at the time. About 25% of the content comes right from the King James Bible, or more precisely, a 1769 edition of the KJV. One way we know this is because the same errors of the 1769 KJV also appear in the BoM. If the BoM was true scripture you certainly wouldn’t expect to find that! Joseph “borrows” entire passages, changes the names, and puts into the BoM. There are so many obvious examples they are too numerous to list them here. It’s not a case of God revealing the same ideas to the new world (BoM) as he did to the old (Bible). The truth is that Joseph copied stories, passages, motifs, etc from the Bible and put them into the BoM. I did a thread about this last year and if you read through my posts you will find many examples here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=959147

What you won’t find in that thread are any good answers from LDS posters to this problem, because there are not any good answers other than the undeniable fact that Joseph wrote the BoM. It is the only tenable conclusion given the vast amount of evidence available. All one has to do is avail themselves of the information.

A good source for this material was Grant Palmer’s book An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins. I highly recommend you pick up a copy as it does a very good job addressing this particular problem along with many other foundational claims of the LDS church.

Can I give answers? Yes. Will YOU consider them good? Nope. I am just a lowly attorney and Lieutenant Colonel…I am sure I am not nearly smart enough to make a good decision…

Suffice to say that you made an allegation that Joseph did not write the Book of Mormon. So…prove your allegation.

I read grant Palmer’s Book when I was Catholic and anti-LDS. I did not find his book that great when I was anti-LDS…

But…you made the claim…prove it. So far, you haven’t. I have read the Book of Mormon and for me, it is the Word of God…you disagree. A lot of folks disagree that the Bible is the Word of God…they have evidence as well…does that change how you view it? No…it doesn’t.

I have had confirmation from God that the book of Mormon is His Word. And I was not an easily swayed person…go back and see how anti I was. Regardless…are you saying God lied to me?

 

[tweedlealice]

All faiths have issues that could be considered a joke. All faiths have had people leave it for various reasons.

If one were to list issues against the Catholic Church as you did against the LDS Church, they would be suspended or banned. Suffice to say it is not hard to find issues in any Church.

Hence, I have stated over and over that it is better to revel in our common ground.

We who love God love each other on that common ground. Polygamy is outlawed. I haven’t figured why the husband on sister wives hasn’t been arrested yet? I apologize for my humor a little. I wouldn’t get in that situation. I am not a violent person by nature x one day. There is a monster in all of us. I think I need to increase that number but over 68years, I won’t recall all the incidents. I can explain the unusual circumstances. Been confessed and forgiven. Really rare.
I know the Catholic churches sins. Not laughable. Forgive the part of me aND my humor level. You dO know how women are in a monogamous marriage about cheating, don’t you? I have relatives that are Morman. I love them. 3 of the sister wives are gradually leaving the show and husband. The last wife and baby didn’t go well.
God loves us all.
Tweedlealice

 

[Chris-WA]

All faiths have issues that could be considered a joke. All faiths have had people leave it for various reasons.

If one were to list issues against the Catholic Church as you did against the LDS Church, they would be suspended or banned. Suffice to say it is not hard to find issues in any Church.

Hence, I have stated over and over that it is better to revel in our common ground.

Actually, no. There is a huge difference between the Catholic Church and the LDS Church. The Catholic Church, in its 2000+ years of existence, has had many flaws and problems to be sure, but among them are not its foundational claims. The LDS church, on the other hand, is besieged from every angle with foundational problems, putting into serious question its legitimacy from the very beginning. History backs up the truth claims of the RCC. History destroys the claims of the LDS. I don’t know if you’ve been keeping up with current events, but the LDS Church is in serious, serious trouble as members are leaving in droves over the fairy tale history they have been told all of their lives. And the leadership has no good answers to these historical problems. Have you read the new church essays on some of these issues? Not good.

 

[TexanKnight]

Actually, no. There is a huge difference between the Catholic Church and the LDS Church. The Catholic Church, in its 2000+ years of existence, has had many flaws and problems to be sure, but among them are not its foundational claims. The LDS church, on the other hand, is besieged from every angle with foundational problems, putting into serious question its legitimacy from the very beginning. History backs up the truth claims of the RCC. History destroys the claims of the LDS. I don’t know if you’ve been keeping up with current events, but the LDS Church is in serious, serious trouble as members are leaving in droves over the fairy tale history they have been told all of their lives. And the leadership has no good answers to these historical problems. Have you read the new church essays on some of these issues? Not good.

There are plenty of foundation issues…depends on to whom you speak. I will not list them here for fear of getting banned…but anti-popes, etc are just a few of the issues. How some were chosen…how money exchanged hands…

People are leaving all faiths in droves…I left the Catholic Church…many Catholics have left…others just no longer practice…others say they are Catholic but support abortion, etc…it is happening in all Churches…and we have fewer historical issues than the Catholic Church…but…we are also a lot newer…so that is expected.

Like I said…it is possible for us to throw stones at each other…we can all provide evidence against the other…but to what end? Does it make you feel good? does it make me feel good?

Did Jesus walk around tearing others down?

 

[Stephen168]

While there might not exist evidence for EVERY page of the Bible, there is for much of it…yet there is no credible evidence of ANY of the Book of Mormon, other than Lehi started out in Jerusalem

For those who say Palmer is a liar, I say this:

I was taught, as a Mormon, that js translated the BoM by reading the gold book and translated. That is what the LDS Church taught.

Grant Palmer wrote that no, js had his head in his hat and would dictate the book.

In Rough Stone Rolling, Bushman admits that js stuck his head in his hat and dictated.

So, who was the liar? Palmer or the LDS Church?

It seems the credibility problem is NOT with Grant Palmer.

I read Palmer’s book years ago. It is very good and sheds a lot of light on the origins of the lds church.

Really? Do you? The battles at cumorah where hundreds of thousands died and there is ZERO evidence from it. Yet, there IS evidence of the Exodus.

How many revelations that js, already a convicted con man, lied does it take for Mormons to say, "gee…he was a liar and I need to rethink the LDS Church”?

No…I do not have to ignore them. I need to accept I was in error and repent. Again, thank you.

The Book of Mormon did not suddenly become an ancient work of non-fiction just become you now believe it to be. It never has been and never will be.

it is how they [Mormons] work…"we can’t prove it because it is false, but if you get a good feeling and a warm fuzzy, it is true!

 

[Chris-WA]

Can I give answers? Yes. Will YOU consider them good? Nope. I am just a lowly attorney and Lieutenant Colonel…I am sure I am not nearly smart enough to make a good decision…

Suffice to say that you made an allegation that Joseph did not write the Book of Mormon. So…prove your allegation.

I read grant Palmer’s Book when I was Catholic and anti-LDS. I did not find his book that great when I was anti-LDS…

But…you made the claim…prove it. So far, you haven’t. I have read the Book of Mormon and for me, it is the Word of God…you disagree. A lot of folks disagree that the Bible is the Word of God…they have evidence as well…does that change how you view it? No…it doesn’t.

I have had confirmation from God that the book of Mormon is His Word. And I was not an easily swayed person…go back and see how anti I was. Regardless…are you saying God lied to me?

No God didn’t lie to you, because God never told you the Book of Mormon was true. That is a paradigm set up by Joseph Smith. It goes like this, “If you pray with real intent and real sincerity than God will tell you it’s true.” You have to read between the lines here. What it really means is that if you *don’t *get a confirmation, then the problem is with you, not God or the LDS church. It’s a terrible way of going about things.

You, and Mormons in general, have been conditioned to seek this confirmation. You’ve been told that these feelings are confirmation of truth. But it just doesn’t work that way. It’s one of the great errors of Mormonism–assigning feelings to confirming whether something is true or not. And for Mormons, that feellng, which they have been conditioned to get, is the ultimate trump card. So no matter what the evidence says, the feelings always win. Funny thing is that other religions claim the exact same thing. Now God cannot confirm that opposite things are true, so to make these feelings the ultimate arbiter of truth is the absolute wrong way of going about it.

If you want to see proof of Joseph writing the BoM, I can’t imagine much better evidence than Palmer’s book. I don’t know what problem you had with it, especially when you were anti-Mormon. It is very well written and sourced. Another great source is the Letter to a CES Editor.

 

[Chris-WA]

There are plenty of foundation issues…depends on to whom you speak. I will not list them here for fear of getting banned…but anti-popes, etc are just a few of the issues. How some were chosen…how money exchanged hands…

People are leaving all faiths in droves…I left the Catholic Church…many Catholics have left…others just no longer practice…others say they are Catholic but support abortion, etc…it is happening in all Churches…and we have fewer historical issues than the Catholic Church…but…we are also a lot newer…so that is expected.

Like I said…it is possible for us to throw stones at each other…we can all provide evidence against the other…but to what end? Does it make you feel good? does it make me feel good?

Did Jesus walk around tearing others down?

He didn’t tear others down, but he didn’t stand for lies either. He stood for truth, even when it was hard for His listeners to hear. So this is about upholding truth by exposing fraud. Joseph Smith was a conman and a fraud. He is not what the LDS church claims he is. The history, which the LDS church has tried to suppress for decades, is out there now for everyone to see. And now the church is admitting things about him that they denied since the beginning. LDS members have been excommunicated for spreading the same information that the church now admits is actually true.

 

[Chris-WA]

There are plenty of foundation issues…depends on to whom you speak. I will not list them here for fear of getting banned…but anti-popes, etc are just a few of the issues. How some were chosen…how money exchanged hands…

None of these are *foundational *issues. I already admitted the RCC has had, and will always have, many problems throughout its history, but none of them points to it being a fraud like the myriad of historical evidence showing Joseph Smith was a fraud. Not even close.

 

[RebeccaJ]

perhaps…but I do not equate limiting God with limiting aliens…I do not believe God and Aliens have the same abilities and power…do you?

Gosh, my point is you don’t have a meaningful, rational, argument. What you believe, is what you believe. Believe what you want, but don’t confuse what you believe with rational argument. You haven’t given a rational argument yet for the plagiarized text in the BoM.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Can I give answers? Yes. Will YOU consider them good? Nope. I am just a lowly attorney and Lieutenant Colonel…I am sure I am not nearly smart enough to make a good decision…

Suffice to say that you made an allegation that Joseph did not write the Book of Mormon. So…prove your allegation.

I read grant Palmer’s Book when I was Catholic and anti-LDS. I did not find his book that great when I was anti-LDS…

But…you made the claim…prove it. So far, you haven’t. I have read the Book of Mormon and for me, it is the Word of God…you disagree. A lot of folks disagree that the Bible is the Word of God…they have evidence as well…does that change how you view it? No…it doesn’t.

I have had confirmation from God that the book of Mormon is His Word. And I was not an easily swayed person…go back and see how anti I was. Regardless…are you saying God lied to me?

Dunno TK, sometimes I’m not convinced it is the same person posting.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

There are plenty of foundation issues…depends on to whom you speak. I will not list them here for fear of getting banned…but anti-popes, etc are just a few of the issues. How some were chosen…how money exchanged hands…

People are leaving all faiths in droves…I left the Catholic Church…many Catholics have left…others just no longer practice…others say they are Catholic but support abortion, etc…it is happening in all Churches…and we have fewer historical issues than the Catholic Church…but…we are also a lot newer…so that is expected.

Like I said…it is possible for us to throw stones at each other…we can all provide evidence against the other…but to what end? Does it make you feel good? does it make me feel good?

Did Jesus walk around tearing others down?

The fact that you have gone from LDS to Catholic back to LDS, is problematic especially if you are, as you say, an attorney. That type of confusion negates your expertise on the subject.
I sure wouldn’t call you as a witness.

 

[TexanKnight]

No God didn’t lie to you, because God never told you the Book of Mormon was true. That is a paradigm set up by Joseph Smith. It goes like this, “If you pray with real intent and real sincerity than God will tell you it’s true.” You have to read between the lines here. What it really means is that if you *don’t *get a confirmation, then the problem is with you, not God or the LDS church. It’s a terrible way of going about things.

You, and Mormons in general, have been conditioned to seek this confirmation. You’ve been told that these feelings are confirmation of truth. But it just doesn’t work that way. It’s one of the great errors of Mormonism–assigning feelings to confirming whether something is true or not. And for Mormons, that feellng, which they have been conditioned to get, is the ultimate trump card. So no matter what the evidence says, the feelings always win. Funny thing is that other religions claim the exact same thing. Now God cannot confirm that opposite things are true, so to make these feelings the ultimate arbiter of truth is the absolute wrong way of going about it.

If you want to see proof of Joseph writing the BoM, I can’t imagine much better evidence than Palmer’s book. I don’t know what problem you had with it, especially when you were anti-Mormon. It is very well written and sourced. Another great source is the Letter to a CES Editor.

Who are you to say that God, through His Spirit did not talk to me? You now are all-knowing? You are now a god that can determine to whom the Spirit speaks?

You are the now the decider of what I feel and why? You are the one who is determine all things and decides what books are the evidence? We have both read the Palmer as Catholics and disagree about it but YOU are the determiner that it is the best evidence?

I could list more books and letters that disprove the Catholic Church…but where would that get us? Would it make me feel good? Would it make you feel good?

Tell you what…you have made yet another claim…yet you have not proven either…you have stated the Book of Mormon is false…but rely on an excommunicated man…I asked for prooof…you had none.

Now you claim God did not talk to me…prove it.

 

[TexanKnight]

He didn’t tear others down, but he didn’t stand for lies either. He stood for truth, even when it was hard for His listeners to hear. So this is about upholding truth by exposing fraud. Joseph Smith was a conman and a fraud. He is not what the LDS church claims he is. The history, which the LDS church has tried to suppress for decades, is out there now for everyone to see. And now the church is admitting things about him that they denied since the beginning. LDS members have been excommunicated for spreading the same information that the church now admits is actually true.

Actually, when the Apostles complained that someone else was preaching who was NOT a pert of them, Jesus said, “He that is not against us is for us”

Are do you only listen to part of His words?

You think Jesus enjoys watching you decide who the Spirit has spoken to?

 

[Son_of_Niall]

Who are you to say that God, through His Spirit did not talk to me? You now are all-knowing? You are now a god that can determine to whom the Spirit speaks?

Now you claim God did not talk to me…prove it.

And what does god say to you when he ‘speaks’?

 

[TexanKnight]

None of these are *foundational *issues. I already admitted the RCC has had, and will always have, many problems throughout its history, but none of them points to it being a fraud like the myriad of historical evidence showing Joseph Smith was a fraud. Not even close.

that is YOUR opinion…it is not fact. Again, the things I could list to me are HUGE evidence that the apostasy happened.

 

[TexanKnight]

Gosh, my point is you don’t have a meaningful, rational, argument. What you believe, is what you believe. Believe what you want, but don’t confuse what you believe with rational argument. You haven’t given a rational argument yet for the plagiarized text in the BoM.

My point is…your argument is just as irrational to me. I would love to have you on the witness stand