Question for LDS folks.

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Good posts…

Book of Wisdom answers Janderich…God ordering all things through His created measurements, weights…

God created structure. God created time. God created space. There cannot be another pre-existing element operating on itself independently of God.
 
Anna_Scott said:
Steve,

Well said.

Our God is the God of whom the Psalmist wrote, whose wonder is incomprehensible. There is none like Him, and there is none who can become Him.

Psalm 89:
5 Let the heavens praise your wonders, O Lord,
your faithfulness in the assembly of the holy ones.

6 For who in the skies can be compared to the Lord?
Who among the heavenly beings is like the Lord,

7 a God feared in the council of the holy ones,
great and awesome**(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=psalm 89&version=NRSVCE#fen-NRSVCE-17404b”)] above all that are around him?

8 O Lord God of hosts,
who is as mighty as you, O Lord?
Your faithfulness surrounds you.

9 You rule the raging of the sea;
when its waves rise, you still them.

10 You crushed Rahab like a carcass;
you scattered your enemies with your mighty arm.

11 The heavens are yours, the earth also is yours;
the world and all that is in it—you have founded them.

12 The north and the southc]—you created them;
Tabor and Hermon joyously praise your name.

13 You have a mighty arm;
strong is your hand, high your right hand.

14 Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne;
steadfast love and faithfulness go before you.

15 Happy are the people who know the festal shout,
who walk, O Lord, in the light of your countenance;

16 they exult in your name all day long,
and extold] your righteousness.

17 For you are the glory of their strength;
by your favor our horn is exalted.

Monotheism and polytheism are incompatible. The one true God of Christianity is outside the comprehension of those who cling to the gods of Mormonism.

I admire your patience in these discussions with our Mormon friends. Perhaps in your kindness they will see that hopeful glimmer of the love of the true Christ.

After all, it is only through an encounter with the risen Lord that our eyes are opened to the Triune God. Christ is the author and perfecter of faith (Hebrews 12:2); and Christ promised to draw all men unto himself (John 12:32).

Steve, you are planting seeds. I pray that all hearts and minds are open to the call of Christ, and through His great mercy we may serve Him well.

Working out my salvation in fear and trembling,
Anna
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I love that psalm. Thanks, Anna. Mormon thought seems to have a unique ability to hold contradicting positions simultaneously. This is something that is beyond me and I find the fact that they cannot see this truly amazing.

“I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity” (Moroni 8:18).

“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!” (King Follett Discourse).

“God is ompnipotent.”

“God is subject to eternal laws and is incapable of creating ex nihilo.”

And it goes on and on. At this point about all we can do is plant seeds and pray for rain.
 
mtolympus said:
1- God is the father of our spirits (Heb. 12:9),
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Hebrews 12** (NRSV-CE):** 9 Moreover, we had human parents to discipline us, and we respected them. Should we not be even more willing to be subject to the Father of spirits and live?

This passage does not prove the Mormon view that the mind or intelligence of man is co-equal and co-eternal with God.

Scriptural Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith
The Immortal Spirit STPJS 352-354. . . .The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal3,a with God himself. . . . .The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end… . .13 There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal [co-eternal] with our Father in heaven.14

We are not co-equal and co-eternal with God. We were created by God; and it is through Christ that we become adopted sons and daughters of God.

Galatians 4 (NRSV-CE):
4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 in order to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as children.
mtolympus said:
2- We can become like God. (1 John 3:2),
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1 John 3 NRSV-CE:
2. . .What we do know is this: when hea] is revealed, we will be like him, for we will see him as he is. 3 And all who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.** Footnotes:** a. 1 John 3:2 Or it
mtolympus said:
3- We can be one in the Father and Jesus in the way they are one. (John 17:20-21). . . . .
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John 17 (NRSVCE):
20 “I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, . . . .

Becoming one or becoming like God does not equate to the Mormon view of exaltation/becoming gods capable of propagating their species in spirit and then organizing, peopling, redeeming and sanctifying another earth.
Code: 
   **Journal of Discourses http://scriptures.byu.edu/right.png** Volume 6 http://scriptures.byu.edu/right.png Brigham Young http://scriptures.byu.edu/right.png 8/28/1852  http://scriptures.byu.edu/right.png Necessity, Etc.
[p. 274b] ](http://scriptures.byu.edu/jod/pdf/JoD06/JoD06_0274.pdf)scriptures.byu.edu/hbll.png . . . .But I expect, if I am faithful with yourselves, that I shall see the time with yourselves that we shall know how to prepare to organize an [p. 275a] ](http://scriptures.byu.edu/jod/pdf/JoD06/JoD06_0275.pdf)scriptures.byu.edu/hbll.png
earth like this—know how to people that earth, how to redeem it, how to sanctify it, and how to glorify it, with those who live upon it who hearken to our counsels.
The Father and the Son have attained to this point already; I am on the way, and so are you, and every faithful servant of God.

. . .I will, however, just tell to you the simple story relating to the exaltation of man in the celestial kingdom of God. We will take Joseph for instance: he is faithful to his calling—has filled his mission to this earth, and sealed his testimony with his blood; he has done the work his Father gave him to do, and will soon come to the resurrection.

His spirit is waiting for the resurrection of the body, which will soon be. But has he the power to resurrect that body? He has not. Who has this power? Those that have already passed through the resurrection—who have been resurrected in their time and season by some person else, and have been appointed to that authority just as you Elders have with regard to your authority to baptize.

. . .Joseph will come up in his turn, receive his body again, and continue his mission in the eternal worlds until he carries it out to perfection, with all the rest of the [p. 275b] ](http://scriptures.byu.edu/jod/pdf/JoD06/JoD06_0275.pdf)scriptures.byu.edu/hbll.png faithful, to be made perfect with those who have lived before, and those who shall live after; and when the work is finished, and it is offered to the Father, then they will be crowned and receive keys and powers by which they will be capable of organizing worlds. . .

After men have got their exaltations and their crowns—have become Gods, even the sons of God—are made Kings of kings and Lords of lords, they have the power then of propagating their species in spirit; and that is the first of their operations with regard to organizing a world. Power is then given to them to organize the elements, and then commence the organization of tabernacles. . . .

You are trying to use the Holy Scriptures of the one Triune God to give credibility to the gods of Mormonism. This does not work on any level.

Anna
 
Why do you mormons give joe smith so much power but yet limit God and all He can do? Why could Jesus perform such great miracles but yet His Father not make something from nothing? You give power here, then take it away over there. You must not love Jesus if you can limit His Father. Its your souls that are in trouble, not mine.
 
kimg901 said:
Why do you mormons give joe smith so much power but yet limit God and all He can do? Why could Jesus perform such great miracles but yet His Father not make something from nothing? You give power here, then take it away over there. You must not love Jesus if you can limit His Father. Its your souls that are in trouble, not mine.
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Keep in mind that Joe Smith said that he had done more for Christianity than even Jesus himself
 
TexanKnight said:
Keep in mind that Joe Smith said that he had done more for Christianity than even Jesus himself
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🤷 I know. What can we do TK? We are :banghead: They will not listen even when the proof is right there for them to see. We can :okpeople: at them but no one is home I guess. 😦
 
**Salvation not Through Jesus Christ, but Joseph Smith?
**
[There is] “no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth…no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God”
  • Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
**“No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith…every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are… [Joseph Smith] reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—“Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!” But it is true.”
  • Prophet Birgham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289-91**
“He that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is anti-christ”
  • Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p.312
**“If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]”
  • Apostle George Q. Cannon, as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142**

"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, “Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;” if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."
**- Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155
**​

theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?130566-salvation-has-to-go-through-Joseph-Smith
 
Miriam1947 said:
**Salvation not Through Jesus Christ, but Joseph Smith?
**
[There is] “no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth…no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God”
  • Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
**“No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith…every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are… [Joseph Smith] reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—“Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!” But it is true.”
  • Prophet Birgham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289-91**
“He that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is anti-christ”
  • Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p.312
**“If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]”
  • Apostle George Q. Cannon, as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142**

"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, “Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;” if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."
**- Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155
**​

theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?130566-salvation-has-to-go-through-Joseph-Smith
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Why is this beginning to make my skin crawl?
 
Miriam1947 said:
**Salvation not Through Jesus Christ, but Joseph Smith?
**
[There is] “no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth…no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God”
  • Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
**“No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith…every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are… [Joseph Smith] reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—“Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!” But it is true.”
  • Prophet Birgham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289-91**
“He that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is anti-christ”
  • Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p.312
**“If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]”
  • Apostle George Q. Cannon, as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142**

"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, “Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;” if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."
**- Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155
**​

theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?130566-salvation-has-to-go-through-Joseph-Smith
Click to expand...
:rolleyes::nope::mad: Uh, my stomach hurts. And these people would rather believe joe smith than Jesus 🤷

P.S Im not kidding about my stomach hurting. Im sick to the point I want to vomit.
 
lax16 said:
Wouldn’t you think it would be God and Jesus Christ who would get us into heaven? :eek:
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Yeah, this is beyond imagination. It is hard for me to read Mormon material and so I mostly see it here for the first time. And I get that same dark feeling that I had when I tried to read the Book of Mormon. This is bad, so bad.
 
Miriam1947 said:
**Salvation not Through Jesus Christ, but Joseph Smith?
**
Click to expand...
Miriam you should know better then to post such a false assumption. Of course salvation is through Jesus Christ. None of these quotes say otherwise. Rather they are simply stating what would appear to me to be an obvious point. If the LDS church is true then you and everyone else who will be saved must accept it (just as you might tell me I must accept the Catholic church). And to accept the LDS church you must accept Joseph Smith as a prophet. Isn’t this obvious? Do we believe in receiving salvation without Christ? Of course not! It is these kinds of comments that create misunderstanding and confusion.
 
kimg901 said:
:rolleyes::nope::mad: Uh, my stomach hurts. And these people would rather believe joe smith than Jesus 🤷

P.S Im not kidding about my stomach hurting. Im sick to the point I want to vomit.
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I get in a real dark, negative mood when I read books about Mormonism. While reading the books An American Fraud and An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins I felt like I was living in a black cloud.

I am currently just praying for the conversion of Mormons and reading other material. 🙂
 
Janderich said:
Miriam you should know better then to post such a false assumption. Of course salvation is through Jesus Christ. None of these quotes say otherwise. Rather they are simply stating what would appear to me to be an obvious point. If the LDS church is true then you and everyone else who will be saved must accept it (just as you might tell me I must accept the Catholic church). And to accept the LDS church you must accept Joseph Smith as a prophet. Isn’t this obvious? Do we believe in receiving salvation without Christ? Of course not! It is these kinds of comments that create misunderstanding and confusion.
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Hi Janderich - Where in any one of those statements is the mention of Jesus Christ as Savior?
 
TexanKnight said:
Keep in mind that Joe Smith said that he had done more for Christianity than even Jesus himself
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False. He said he kept a church together unlike Paul, John, Peter, and Christ (see History of the Church volume 6:408-409) Such a statement from Joseph is true, though Catholic’s will not accept it.

At least be honest with your quotes. You can of course pull all sorts of strange statements together over the last 200 years but do not give false information as fact. You do no one any good.
 
lax16 said:
Hi Janderich - Where in any one of those statements is the mention of Jesus Christ as Savior?
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Without even digging into the talks I find this: "“He that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh…” I find it amazing what false accusations will be believed if it fits a persons paradigm.
 
Janderich said:
Without even digging into the talks I find this: "“He that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh…” I find it amazing what false accusations will be believed if it fits a persons paradigm.
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Janderich - You forgot the rest of the quote:

“He that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is anti-christ”
  • Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p.312
Where does it state that Jesus Christ is our Savior?
 
Janderich said:
Miriam you should know better then to post such a false assumption. Of course salvation is through Jesus Christ. None of these quotes say otherwise. Rather they are simply stating what would appear to me to be an obvious point. If the LDS church is true then you and everyone else who will be saved must accept it (just as you might tell me I must accept the Catholic church). And to accept the LDS church you must accept Joseph Smith as a prophet. Isn’t this obvious? Do we believe in receiving salvation without Christ? Of course not! It is these kinds of comments that create misunderstanding and confusion.
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But salvation requires both Christ and Joseph Smith.
 
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