Question for LDS folks.

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False. He said he kept a church together unlike Paul, John, Peter, and Christ (see History of the Church volume 6:408-409) Such a statement from Joseph is true, though Catholic’s will not accept it.

At least be honest with your quotes. You can of course pull all sorts of strange statements together over the last 200 years but do not give false information as fact. You do no one any good.
Here is the entire quote:

"God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil–all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . " (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 4

How is this statement true?
What is it that Catholics don’t accept?

You do realize that most of the early Mormons left the church?
Many LDS ran away from Joseph Smith!!
Do you think it is wrong to tell people that Jesus couldn’t keep His Church together?
 
False. He said he kept a church together unlike Paul, John, Peter, and Christ (see History of the Church volume 6:408-409) Such a statement from Joseph is true, though Catholic’s will not accept it.

At least be honest with your quotes. You can of course pull all sorts of strange statements together over the last 200 years but do not give false information as fact. You do no one any good.
So JS accomplished more than God could manage, such a low opinion of Christ is breath taking. Truly it makes one catch their breath at the utter disrespect. God can’t keep a church together but Joseph Smith can. It is absolutely unbelievable that one could even approach that thought let alone entertain it.
 
Of course salvation is through Jesus Christ. None of these quotes say otherwise… Do we believe in receiving salvation without Christ? Of course not!
Brigham Young:

There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt.** The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood **must atone for it; and the judgments of the Almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man and woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants.

It is true that the blood of the Son of God was shed for sins through the fall and those committed by men,** yet men can commit sins which it can never remit.** Journal of Discourses Volume 4 Page 54 (1856)

Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them, you would be justified, and they would atone for their sins and be received into the kingdom of God. I would at once do so in such a case; and under such circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands. . . . If the Lord so ordered it that they are not caught in the act of their iniquity, it is pretty good proof that He is willing for them to live; and I say let them live and suffer in the flesh for their sins, for they will have it to do. There is not a man or woman who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it. Journal of Discourses Volume 3 Page 247 (1856)

There are sins that men commit for which they cannot receive forgiveness in this world, or in that which is to come, and if they had their eyes open to see their true condition, they would be perfectly willing to have their blood spilt [sic] upon the ground, that the smoke thereof might ascend to heaven as an offering for their sins; and the smoking incense would atone for their sins, whereas, if such is not the case, they will stick to them and remain upon them in the spirit world. I know, when you hear my brethren telling about cutting people off from the earth, that you consider it is a strong doctrine; but it is to save them, not destroy them. Journal of Discourses Volume 4 Page 53 (1856)

I do know that there are sins committed, of such a nature that if the people did under the doctrine of salvation, they would tremble because of their situation. And furthermore, I know that there are transgressors, who, if they knew themselves, and the only condition upon which they can obtain forgiveness, would beg of their brethren to shed their blood, that the smoke thereof might ascend to God as an offering to appease the wrath that is kindled against them and that the law might have its course.** I will say further; I have h****ad men come to me and offer their lives to atone for their sins.** Journal of Discourses Volume 4 Pages 53-54 (1856)

Now take a person in this congregation who has knowledge with regard to being saved in the kingdom . . . and suppose that he is overtaken in a gross fault, that he has committed a sin that he knows will deprive him of that exaltation which he desires,** and he cannot attain to it without the shedding of his blood, and also knows that by having his blood sh****ed he will atone for that s**in, and be saved and exalted with the Gods, is there a man or woman in this house but what would say, “shed my blood that I may be saved and exalted with the Gods?” All mankind love themselves, and let these principles be known by an individual, and he would be glad to have his blood shed. That would be loving themselves, even unto an eternal exaltation. Will you love your brothers or sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood? Journal of Discourses Volume 4 Page 219 (1857)

I could refer you to plenty of instances where men have been righteously slain, in order to atone for their sins. I have seen scores and hundreds of people for whom there would have been a chance (in the last resurrection there will be) if their lives had been taken and their blood spilled on the ground as a smoking incense to the Almighty, but who are now angels of the devil, until our elder brother Jesus Christ raises them up—conquers death, hell, and the grave. I have known a great many men who have left this Church for whom there is no chance whatever for exaltation, but if their blood had been spilled, it would have been better for them. The wickedness and ignorance of the nations forbid this principle’s [sic] being in full force, but the time will come when the law of God will be in full force. This is loving your neighbour [sic] as ourselves; if he needs help, help him; and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it. Any of you who understand the principles of eternity, if you have sinned a sin requiring the shedding of blood, except the sin unto death, would not be satisfied nor rest until your blood should be spilled, that you might gain that salvation you desire. This is the way to love mankind. Journal of Discourses Volume 4 Page 220 (1857)
 
So JS accomplished more than God could manage, such a low opinion of Christ is breath taking. Truly it makes one catch their breath at the utter disrespect. God can’t keep a church together but Joseph Smith can. It is absolutely unbelievable that one could even approach that thought let alone entertain it.
And speak it.

Then have others repeat it.
 
Keep in mind that Joe Smith said that he had done more for Christianity than even Jesus himself
How can a church call itself Christian if their first prophet goes around saying stuff like this?

To visiting mormons:
Does it even slighty scare you that JS, who was to reveal the fullness of truth, elevates himself in anyway above Jesus Christ the messiah?
 
Brigham Young:

** The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood **must atone for it;

** yet men can commit sins which it can never remit.** Journal of Discourses Volume 4 Page 54 (1856)

Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife,** and put a javelin through both of them, you would be justified**, and they would atone for their sins and be received into the kingdom of God. . . . . The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it. Journal of Discourses Volume 3 Page 247 (1856)

There are sins that men commit for which they cannot receive forgiveness in this world, or in that which is to come, and if they had their eyes open to see their true condition, they would be perfectly willing to have their blood spilt [sic] upon the Journal of Discourses Volume 4 Page 53 (1856)

And furthermore, I know that there are transgressors, who, if they knew themselves, and the only condition upon which they can obtain forgiveness, would beg of their brethren to shed their blood, that the smoke thereof might ascend to God as an offering to appease the wrath that is kindled against them and that the law might have its course.** I will say further; I have h****ad men come to me and offer their lives to atone for their sins.** Journal of Discourses Volume 4 Pages 53-54 (1856)

I could refer you to plenty of instances where men have been righteously slain, in order to atone for their sins. I have seen scores and hundreds of people for whom there would have been a chance (in the last resurrection there will be) if their lives had been taken and their blood spilled on the ground as a smoking incense to the Almighty, but who are now angels of the devil, until our elder brother Jesus Christ raises them up—conquers death, hell, and the grave. I have known a great many men who have left this Church for whom there is no chance whatever for exaltation, but if their blood had been spilled, it would have been better for them. The wickedness and ignorance of the nations forbid this principle’s [sic] being in full force, but the time will come when the law of God will be in full force. This is loving your neighbour [sic] as ourselves; if he needs help, help him; and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it. Any of you who understand the principles of eternity, if you have sinned a sin requiring the shedding of blood, except the sin unto death, would not be satisfied nor rest until your blood should be spilled, that you might gain that salvation you desire. This is the way to love mankind. Journal of Discourses Volume 4 Page 220 (1857)
**So I take it the early mormon church was NOT pro-life? Is Joseph Smith anything like Brigham Young or was BY differently opinionated?

This was very educational. I won’t forget it. Janderich,** is there anyway to put a different, more positive spin on what BY is saying here? For instance, was this church doctrine or were these just ‘harmless’ discourses that capture BY in an unagreeable stance that doesn’t necessarily reflect the early LDS church as a whole? This was pretty early as far as mormonism is concerned…is there any chance that this shows early corruption? I would honestly like to know your opinion about it. Is this the first time you’ve read BY talk like this or is it well known in your church? Thank you in advance for your reply!
 
False. He said he kept a church together unlike Paul, John, Peter, and Christ (see History of the Church volume 6:408-409) Such a statement from Joseph is true
It saddens me that this is what you believe about Jesus Christ, it really does.
 
False. He said he kept a church together unlike Paul, John, Peter, and Christ (see History of the Church volume 6:408-409) Such a statement from Joseph is true, though Catholic’s will not accept it.

At least be honest with your quotes. You can of course pull all sorts of strange statements together over the last 200 years but do not give false information as fact. You do no one any good.
Perhaps YOU should be honest…Joseph said:

"God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil–all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days

page 409

of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. "

I truly dislike the way you try to whitewash LDS History, Janderich.

And THAT is why I post here.
 
Miriam you should know better then to post such a false assumption. Of course salvation is through Jesus Christ. None of these quotes say otherwise. Rather they are simply stating what would appear to me to be an obvious point. If the LDS church is true then you and everyone else who will be saved must accept it (just as you might tell me I must accept the Catholic church). And to accept the LDS church you must accept Joseph Smith as a prophet. Isn’t this obvious? Do we believe in receiving salvation without Christ? Of course not! It is these kinds of comments that create misunderstanding and confusion.
More whitewashing. The quotes say that the only way to heaven is thru Joseph Smith.

again…

“No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith…every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are… [Joseph Smith] reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—“Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!” But it is true.”
  • Prophet Birgham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289-91
Look, I truly understand why you feel the need to whitewash the truth. But you should know by now that you simply cannot get away with it on this board.
 
**So I take it the early mormon church was NOT pro-life? Is Joseph Smith anything like Brigham Young or was BY differently opinionated?

This was very educational. I won’t forget it. Janderich,** is there anyway to put a different, more positive spin on what BY is saying here? For instance, was this church doctrine or were these just ‘harmless’ discourses that capture BY in an unagreeable stance that doesn’t necessarily reflect the early LDS church as a whole? This was pretty early as far as Mormonism is concerned…is there any chance that this shows early corruption? I would honestly like to know your opinion about it. Is this the first time you’ve read BY talk like this or is it well known in your church? Thank you in advance for your reply!
Such discourses from Brigham Young are fairly well known. The term for this teaching from Brigham has come to be known as blood atonement. Anti-Mormons love to bring such quotes to the forefront and parade them around as core doctrine. They are not. The church issued a statement saying:
In the mid-19th century, when rhetorical, emotional oratory was common, some church members and leaders used strong language that included notions of people making restitution for their sins by giving up their own lives.
However, so-called “blood atonement,” by which individuals would be required to shed their own blood to pay for their sins, is not a doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We believe in and teach the infinite and all-encompassing atonement of Jesus Christ, which makes forgiveness of sin and salvation possible for all people. deseretnews.com/article/700041267/Mormon-church-statement-on-blood-atonement.html?pg=all
Brigham Young was a prophet of God but he was also a man. There were occasions where he did not always speak the words of God. We believe that a prophet is a prophet only when speaking the words of God. I have no obligation to obey false doctrine. I am under obligation to obey the spirit of the Lord and confirm his words myself. Brigham Young himself said, “Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually.” (Journal of Discourses, 9:151)

No doubt once I say this some ex-Mormon will jump on here and give contradictory quotes to try and confuse the matter. But you asked for my thoughts and I have given them to you frankly.
 
Perhaps YOU should be honest…Joseph said:

"God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil–all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days

page 409

of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. "

I truly dislike the way you try to whitewash LDS History, Janderich.

And THAT is why I post here.
I’m glad to see you have now given more of the actual quote. As you can see what I said was correct. Joseph’s comment was not that he had done more for Christianity than Christ himself as you stated. Instead it is about keeping a church together. This is a much more limited statement and a far cry from your broad assertion.
 
I’m glad to see you have now given more of the actual quote. As you can see what I said was correct. Joseph’s comment was not that he had done more for Christianity than Christ himself as you stated. Instead it is about keeping a church together. This is a much more limited statement and a far cry from your broad assertion.
As you can see YOU whitewashed it. "I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. "

He claims he did more than even Jesus. Your efforts to deny and whitewash are humorous, but no one is fooled…

except maybe other Mormons
 
Jan, you can twist it, use magical stones, use crayons, add flowers, I dont care. You are your church are the anti-christ if you believe such statements. How can you call yourself a christian and yet you will defend a con man and not Jesus? With every post you make here you are slowly giving yourself to satan. May God have mercy on your souls :mad:
 
Such discourses from Brigham Young are fairly well known. The term for this teaching from Brigham has come to be known as blood atonement. Anti-Mormons love to bring such quotes to the forefront and parade them around as core doctrine. They are not. The church issued a statement saying:

Brigham Young was a prophet of God but he was also a man. There were occasions where he did not always speak the words of God. We believe that a prophet is a prophet only when speaking the words of God. I have no obligation to obey false doctrine. I am under obligation to obey the spirit of the Lord and confirm his words myself. Brigham Young himself said, “Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually.” (Journal of Discourses, 9:151)

No doubt once I say this some ex-Mormon will jump on here and give contradictory quotes to try and confuse the matter. But you asked for my thoughts and I have given them to you frankly.
Except that BY said he was speaking as a prophet.

This is another typical LDS ploy: If a “prophet” says something we do not like, we say he was just speaking as a man.

Doesn’t fly here.
 
False. He said he kept a church together unlike Paul, John, Peter, and Christ (see History of the Church volume 6:408-409) Such a statement from Joseph is true, though Catholic’s will not accept it.
Hi Janderich, the whole quote was given. And are you not saying the same thing where you say “unlike Paul, John, Peter, and Christ”. You are saying Joseph Smith did things Jesus and his apostles could not do, as in keep a church together. Please explain how what TexanKnight is saying is false.
 
Such discourses from Brigham Young are fairly well known. The term for this teaching from Brigham has come to be known as blood atonement. Anti-Mormons love to bring such quotes to the forefront and parade them around as core doctrine. They are not.
So if a person quotes your prophet Brigham Young (the one your church university is named after) they are anti-mormon? :rolleyes:

WHAT RELIGION WOULD ACCUSE A PERSON OF BEING AGAINST THEIR RELIGION BY QUOTING **THEIR OWN **PROPHETS?

ONLY THE MORMONS.

Really, think about it. No other religion backs away from their leaders the way the Mormons do.
The church issued a statement saying:
Brigham Young was a prophet of God but he was also a man. There were occasions where he did not always speak the words of God. We believe that a prophet is a prophet only when speaking the words of God. I have no obligation to obey false doctrine. I am under obligation to obey the spirit of the Lord and confirm his words myself. Brigham Young himself said, “Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually.” (Journal of Discourses, 9:151)
When did the church issue this statement Janderich? What year?

Ann Eliza Webb (eye-witness and eventual wife of Brigham Young):

It is a significant fact that most of the person who thus perished were Gentiles, apostates, or people who for some reason or other, were suspected by, or disagreeable to, Brigham Young; and it came presently to be noticed that if anyone became tired of Mormonism, or impatient of the increasing despotism of the leader, and returned to the East or started to do so, he invariably was met by the Indians and killed before he had gone very far.
 
Brigham Young was a prophet of God but he was also a man. There were occasions where he did not always speak the words of God. We believe that a prophet is a prophet only when speaking the words of God.
Janderich - Please give us some of BY’s quotes that are doctrinal and when he was speaking the words of God.
 
Brigham Young was a prophet of God but he was also a man. There were occasions where he did not always speak the words of God.
Apparently, Brigham Young didn’t get the memo.

*“I am here to answer. I shall be on hand to answer when I am called upon, for all the counsel and for all the instruction that I have given to this people. If there is an Elder here, or any member of this Church, called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who can bring up the first idea, the first sentence that I have delivered to the people as counsel that is wrong, I really wish they would do it; but they cannot do it, for the simple reason that I have never given counsel that is wrong; this is the reason.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 16, p. 161). Brigham Young

“I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom…I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 95). Brigham Young*
 
Such discourses from Brigham Young are fairly well known. The term for this teaching from Brigham has come to be known as blood atonement. Anti-Mormons love to bring such quotes to the forefront and parade them around as core doctrine. They are not. The church issued a statement saying:

Brigham Young was a prophet of God but he was also a man. There were occasions where he did not always speak the words of God. We believe that a prophet is a prophet only when speaking the words of God. I have no obligation to obey false doctrine. I am under obligation to obey the spirit of the Lord and confirm his words myself. Brigham Young himself said, “Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually.” (Journal of Discourses, 9:151)

No doubt once I say this some ex-Mormon will jump on here and give contradictory quotes to try and confuse the matter. But you asked for my thoughts and I have given them to you frankly.
 
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