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RebeccaJ
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That is what happened.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
The long of it is, Hoffman was selling forged and stolen documents. He had access to the LDS church vaults, which are in a granite mountain in Utah. It is believed he stole authentic, original documents, from this archive, and sold them back to the Mormon church. He also forged numerous documents. The more sensational “historic” documents LDS leaders took a strong interest in these. They used them from about 1980 to 1985, in their own publications that church members read, to point out the truthfulness of Mormonism.
The last set of documents that Hoffman said he had, and was selling, he called the McClellen papers. He claimed it was several volumes of documents, written by a man named McClellen, that refuted Smith’s claims, entirely. He had arranged to sell them to Gordon B Hinckley, who at the time was a high ranking church leader, and later the Mormon president, and “prophet”. Hoffman didn’t have these papers, in all of his scheming and forgeries he had developed a ponzi scheme, where he would take money from various individuals, with promises of delivering very rare documents or books. He would then use the money to pay another person who he had purchased very rare documents and books from. He was also spending a lot of his illicitly gained money on a house, cars, etc.
With the McClellen papers, that didn’t exist, he had convinced LDS church leaders to pay a couple of hundred thousand for them. He claims their interest was to obtain them, in order to tuck them in a vault somewhere, never to be seen, because of their faith-demoting nature.
His ponzi scheme had caught up with him though. He owed hundreds of thousands of dollars, he didn’t have the time or resources to produce the volume of forgeries that he was selling, so he decided a “good” diversion to all his scheming was to deliver bombs to a few individuals. It is believed he was in the process of placing a bomb that would kill or hurt a Mormon general authority, when he caused the bomb he had prepared to go off in his own car. It was just one block from Mormon temple square in SLC. Scary times, the guy was a freak.
So two years later, in 1987, the LDS church released a statement saying they knew Hoffman’s forgeries were forgeries, and they had purchased them with the intent to verify their authenticity.
Never mind the references made in LDS church publications to these documents, put forth as evidence for the truthfulness of Mormonism. They knew all along! The online material, of the original printed material, has the references to these documents removed.
The last set of documents that Hoffman said he had, and was selling, he called the McClellen papers. He claimed it was several volumes of documents, written by a man named McClellen, that refuted Smith’s claims, entirely. He had arranged to sell them to Gordon B Hinckley, who at the time was a high ranking church leader, and later the Mormon president, and “prophet”. Hoffman didn’t have these papers, in all of his scheming and forgeries he had developed a ponzi scheme, where he would take money from various individuals, with promises of delivering very rare documents or books. He would then use the money to pay another person who he had purchased very rare documents and books from. He was also spending a lot of his illicitly gained money on a house, cars, etc.
With the McClellen papers, that didn’t exist, he had convinced LDS church leaders to pay a couple of hundred thousand for them. He claims their interest was to obtain them, in order to tuck them in a vault somewhere, never to be seen, because of their faith-demoting nature.
His ponzi scheme had caught up with him though. He owed hundreds of thousands of dollars, he didn’t have the time or resources to produce the volume of forgeries that he was selling, so he decided a “good” diversion to all his scheming was to deliver bombs to a few individuals. It is believed he was in the process of placing a bomb that would kill or hurt a Mormon general authority, when he caused the bomb he had prepared to go off in his own car. It was just one block from Mormon temple square in SLC. Scary times, the guy was a freak.
So two years later, in 1987, the LDS church released a statement saying they knew Hoffman’s forgeries were forgeries, and they had purchased them with the intent to verify their authenticity.
Never mind the references made in LDS church publications to these documents, put forth as evidence for the truthfulness of Mormonism. They knew all along! The online material, of the original printed material, has the references to these documents removed.
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TexanKnight
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That is only part of the story.
Hoffman was very adept at what he did. He was very good at forgery. He made a lot of money fooling people. He sold the LDS Church many documents that the LDS Church trumpeted were true documents. Their historian, Dean Jesse was also fooled. (Dean is a cousin of mine).
Later, after he killed 2 people and was injured himself when a bomb went off prematurely, it all unraveled. He was discovered and arrested. During the investigation, the LDS Church falsified documents in an effort to distance the Church from Hoffman. There were LDS investigators who left the the LDS Church during this investigation as truth was discovered about the conduct of the First Presidency.
The LDS Church was instrumental in getting Hoffman to accept a plea. There was a huge fear of the Apostles and Acting prophet testifying.
it was all pretty horrible. It exposed the LDS Church to all who are not blinded.
Hoffman was very adept at what he did. He was very good at forgery. He made a lot of money fooling people. He sold the LDS Church many documents that the LDS Church trumpeted were true documents. Their historian, Dean Jesse was also fooled. (Dean is a cousin of mine).
Later, after he killed 2 people and was injured himself when a bomb went off prematurely, it all unraveled. He was discovered and arrested. During the investigation, the LDS Church falsified documents in an effort to distance the Church from Hoffman. There were LDS investigators who left the the LDS Church during this investigation as truth was discovered about the conduct of the First Presidency.
The LDS Church was instrumental in getting Hoffman to accept a plea. There was a huge fear of the Apostles and Acting prophet testifying.
it was all pretty horrible. It exposed the LDS Church to all who are not blinded.
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pablope
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Thanks RebeccaJ.
Well, in your post…this part does not make sense…don’t you want to authenticate something first before you spend money to buy it?
Why buy it in order to authenticate it…does not make sense. Shouldn’t the buyer instead, offer to spend money to authenticate it…and then buy it if it is true?
How could a prophet be deceived in spending church money on a forgery? It looks like reason was thrown out the window…
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RebeccaJ
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You would think so. But he got the best of a lot of people, not just LDS leaders. Going from memory here, there was another document he forged having to do with U.S. history. When someone had it authenticated, it showed the paper was from the time period, but the ink was homemade using modern ingredients and methods. He would look for old books in libraries, find a blank page, cut it out with a razor blade, and use the authentic period paper to make the forged document.Thanks RebeccaJ.
Well, in your post…this part does not make sense…don’t you want to authenticate something first before you spend money to buy it?
Why buy it in order to authenticate it…does not make sense. Shouldn’t the buyer instead, offer to spend money to authenticate it…and then buy it if it is true?
How could a prophet be deceived in spending church money on a forgery? It looks like reason was thrown out the window…
I think the question regarding a claimed prophet, who is believed to be able to discern the heart of people, got to a few LDS members at the time. I was already a non-believer by then, so, I didn’t have the view it was a prophet who was conned.
Hoffman was a returned Mormon missionary, acting like he was a devout Mormon. He presented his “discovered” documents in a way that Mormons trusted. Things like this always bring up the trusting aspect of Mormon culture in Utah. If you are a Mormon member in good standing, doing your calling, going to the temple, you can create the façade of trustworthiness. Hoffman wasn’t the first or the last to prey on fellow Mormons. There’s always at least one or two newspaper stories a year that have the same kind of thing going on. The latest is a Mormon bishop who set up a ponzi scheme and defrauded members of his own congregation. Every once in a while the local FBI office puts out a press release, cautioning people with the old advise, if it is too good to be true, it probably is false.
He presented himself as a wonder boy who could dig up long lost documents. People bought it. The amazing volume of documents he was “discovering” or “acquiring” should have set off bells, but it didn’t.
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truthseeker32
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This is an interesting thread. Conversations concerning Mormonism sure are popular on CAF. I don’t have much to add, but I think it is important, when critiquing the claims of another faith, to stick to areas where a good proof can be given. For example, it is theoretically possible that there is an unmoved mover and then a bunch of lesser gods as a Mormon might believe. What is easier to demonstrate is that the official position of the Mormon religion pertaining to abortion is clearly mistake, or that the Book of Mormon is clearly not an actual history of mesoamerican tribes.
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kimg901
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Well since this thread is about mormonism I thought I would post this just for fun.
Warning: Some language and it might offend
youtube.com/watch?v=dX_1B0w7Hzc
Warning: Some language and it might offend
youtube.com/watch?v=dX_1B0w7Hzc
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KathleenGee
Guest
Truthseeker,
When the day comes, get a copy of St. Thomas Aquinas’ Summa on the first book: “God”. There you will logically come to the conclusion that there cannot be one big constant god and many other little gods…they could gang up on him in a power trip…
When the day comes, get a copy of St. Thomas Aquinas’ Summa on the first book: “God”. There you will logically come to the conclusion that there cannot be one big constant god and many other little gods…they could gang up on him in a power trip…
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RebeccaJ
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Also, Mormon leaders, at all levels, never admit to being wrong, even if the error is one where they were deceived, and they didn’t do anything sinful.Thanks RebeccaJ.
Well, in your post…this part does not make sense…don’t you want to authenticate something first before you spend money to buy it?
Why buy it in order to authenticate it…does not make sense. Shouldn’t the buyer instead, offer to spend money to authenticate it…and then buy it if it is true?
How could a prophet be deceived in spending church money on a forgery? It looks like reason was thrown out the window…
It is one of the many things that doesn’t make sense in Mormonism. If you point out where their leaders have made mistakes, LDS members will create apologies that center on their leaders “being human” and they “had an opinion”. But you will not find an instance where Mormon leaders have actually said, “sorry, we screwed up”. Not even for the events that Mormon apologists say past leaders did, in fact, screw up. Current leaders would never admit to any such thing.
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TexanKnight
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True…except they WILL say, “that past prophet was not wrong, he was just not speaking as a prophet at that time when he gave bad, confusing doctrine”
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RebeccaJ
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Bad, confusing doctrine is not wrong. Got it.
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TexanKnight
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Of course, the LDS Church is the same Church who had one prophet who said there were men on the moon dressed like quakers, and another who said man would never land on the moon.
Do the LDS prophets ever get it right?
Do the LDS prophets ever get it right?
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kimg901
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we never did land on the moon. my brother in law (he works for the military, as I did) gave to me some papers one day to read and well, lets just say we did not land on the moon. They where D.O.D papers along with some N.A.S.A papers. Very interesting stuff
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TexanKnight
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u huhwe never did land on the moon. my brother in law (he works for the military, as I did) gave to me some papers one day to read and well, lets just say we did not land on the moon. They where D.O.D papers along with some N.A.S.A papers. Very interesting stuff
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kimg901
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No, really TK. It was all in response to the Russians at the time. From a scientific view, we cannot deal with the extreme tempature differences and the gravity (or lack off).
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TexanKnight
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researched it years ago. Also researched all the folks who said it did not happen.
It happened.
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kimg901
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Are we doing the Catholic/Mormon thing here saying its true and its not?
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TexanKnight
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Nope…Are we doing the Catholic/Mormon thing here saying its true and its not?
but you can be LDS and agree with LDS prophet who said it would never happen…
I will stick with my research
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Thecourts
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I would recommend going to mormon.org or if you know a active LDS member, have them show a chapter in the Gospel principles book. If you live in Utah, go to Deseret Bookstore, search for the book and see the chapter for yourself.
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