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SirThomasMore
Guest
I know what he said. His sermons are scripture. I also understand your need to explain it away because BY was an embarrassment
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Caprica
Guest
Unfortunately there is nothing to explain away when I am providing the immediate context of Brigham Young’s statement, where Brigham Young himself explains what he meant, and he gave qualifications to his statement. One cannot ignore that context in understanding what Brigham Young himself meant by his own statement. He tells us, and you have not addressed those qualifications.
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-“Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve.”
-“I say now, when they are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible”**
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SirThomasMore
Guest
I know what he said in other quotes. Look, I understand your need to run from BY. But, some of us have actually studied the truth
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Caprica
Guest
Sorry, there is no “run[ning] from BY” when I am providing quotes by him, including the sentence immediately following the one you are fond of. One cannot ignore these statements (by Brigham Young himself) where he explains what he meant.
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-“I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve.”
-“I say now, when they are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible”**
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SirThomasMore
Guest
I have started a thread on BY quotes, including the Scripture one. People can see for themselves
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Caprica
Guest
I hope that posters can see the context of the statement in question by Brigham Young, where he explains what he meant. The context shows that Brigham Young did not mean that all of his sermons were scriptural, but that the sermon must be corrected by him, and approved by him, and then it is considered scripture.
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-“Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve.”
-“I say now, when they are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible”**
These are the qualifications made by Brigham Young himself, and we cannot ignore that context when pulling another statement out of that context (especially when part of that context is the next sentence).
**Journal of Discourses 13:95
“Well, brethren and sisters, try and be Saints. I will try; I have tried many years to live according to the law which the Lord reveals unto me. I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom, as I know the road to my office. It is just as plain and easy. The Lord is in our midst. He teaches the people continually. I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually. In the days of Joseph, revelation was given and written, and the people were driven from city to city and place to place, until we were led into these mountains. Let this go to the people with “Thus saith the Lord,” and if they do not obey it, you will see the chastening hand of the Lord upon them. But if they are plead with, and led along like children, we may come to understand the will of the Lord and He may preserve us as we desire.”
Journal of Discourses 13:264
"Brother Orson Hyde referred to a few who complained about not getting revelations. I will make a statement here that has been brought against me as a crime, perhaps, or as a fault in my life. Not here, I do not allude to anything of the kind in this place, but in the councils of the nations–that Brigham Young has said ‘when he sends forth his discourses to the world they may call them Scripture.’ I say now, when they are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible, and if you want to read revelation read the sayings of him who knows the mind of God, without any special command to one man to go here, and to another to go yonder, or to do this or that, or to go and settle here or there. "**
**
-“Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve.”
-“I say now, when they are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible”**
These are the qualifications made by Brigham Young himself, and we cannot ignore that context when pulling another statement out of that context (especially when part of that context is the next sentence).
**Journal of Discourses 13:95
“Well, brethren and sisters, try and be Saints. I will try; I have tried many years to live according to the law which the Lord reveals unto me. I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom, as I know the road to my office. It is just as plain and easy. The Lord is in our midst. He teaches the people continually. I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually. In the days of Joseph, revelation was given and written, and the people were driven from city to city and place to place, until we were led into these mountains. Let this go to the people with “Thus saith the Lord,” and if they do not obey it, you will see the chastening hand of the Lord upon them. But if they are plead with, and led along like children, we may come to understand the will of the Lord and He may preserve us as we desire.”
Journal of Discourses 13:264
"Brother Orson Hyde referred to a few who complained about not getting revelations. I will make a statement here that has been brought against me as a crime, perhaps, or as a fault in my life. Not here, I do not allude to anything of the kind in this place, but in the councils of the nations–that Brigham Young has said ‘when he sends forth his discourses to the world they may call them Scripture.’ I say now, when they are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible, and if you want to read revelation read the sayings of him who knows the mind of God, without any special command to one man to go here, and to another to go yonder, or to do this or that, or to go and settle here or there. "**
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SirThomasMore
Guest
Like I said…I understand your need to run from BY
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Caprica
Guest
Like I said…it’s illogical to say that I am running from Brigham Young when I am providing statements by Brigham Young, including the sentence immediately after the statement in question, which provides qualification to his statement. But I understand why you would continue to ignore that.
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-“Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve.”
-“I say now, when they are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible”**
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SirThomasMore
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Caprica
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Sorry, there is no picking and choosing when one of those sentences comes immediately after the statement in question, and provides qualification for the statement in question:
Journal of Discourses 13:95
"I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve."
The other sentence is further clarification, from Brigham Young himself, on the same issue. So, we can take all of Brigham Young’s statements on this issue together to understand what he meant when he said what he said.
But again, I understand why you would pick and choose the one statement and ignore the surrounding context (including the sentence immediately after, which is odd).
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cothrige
Guest
Yes, I can see what you mean here, and I will avoid the ‘h’ word.
You know, as for why Jesus did not spend more time explaining the Trinity I have given that a lot of personal thought and if you don’t mind I will share those with you. It seems to me that during the Lord’s life and ministry he was dealing with faithful Jews and many who were in a religious fervour. The Jews were very pious and reverent, as is demonstrated many times in the scriptures when people sought to stone Jesus for using terms like Son of God. In a word, they were scrupulous. Into this environment steps Jesus to preach the Gospel and offer himself for us. When I wonder why he didn’t simply walk up to the apostles and say “I am God” I have to think of how they may have reacted. I have a feeling that for one many people would have tried to kill him right then, and that would have made it hard to carry out his ministry at all. And those who believed him would surely have fallen on the ground and never got back up. I think they had to come to their knowledge slowly, beginning with confidence in his being a prophet, then the messias, and then only with the gift of the Spirit coming to some realisation that he was God. I am given to think that this is exactly the truth that he promised the Spirit would reveal after he ascended.I think many of the words in the Bible are pregnant with revelation about Christ’s divinity, but do not always scream it out. I think that is because they were written by people struggling to understand, and the Spirit only prevented them from writing something which would deny the truth rather than forcing them to be more explicit. The Spirit restrained rather than compelled in these instances, I think. I wouldn’t be surprised if many of the authors of scripture were unclear in their mind about the Lord’s divinity, but under the inspiration of the Spirit still managed to leave indicators for us years later. It is like Isaac when he carried the wood of his sacrifice up the hill and asked where the lamb was, to be answered by his father “God will provide the lamb,” I have no reason to think they or the author of the story in Genesis had any concern beyond the story itself. I am sure they were completely ignorant of the foretelling of our Lord’s passion which was present in these words and actions. But, the Spirit presented that truth at that time, so early in the life of the Old Testament Church, just so people could be witnesses to its fulfilment thousands of years later. In just that way I think words of our Lord, constrained as they had to be in the milieu he lived in, have been fully understood and worked out only after many years of guidance and enlivening by the Spirit.
That is my take on it anyway.
I can see the sense of your approach to these questions. And this statement above clarifies things for me. The term “flesh and bone” seems unusual to me though. Do you mind if I ask why that is used rather than the more typical “flesh and blood”? Is there a specific reason, or is it rather just a cultural development?
This seems a very reasonable understanding, and it definitely follows with this thread where I am seeing the reticence to indulge too much in speculation. I have read many of these threads, and read many quotes from this or that leader (President?) of your Church, and people have used them in many ways to show how LDS simply must believe this or that. I will be very careful in the future to consider what I have learned on this thread when I read these kinds of posts. It is unlikely that a people so reluctant to speculate beyond what is absolutely revealed would be inclined to indulge every possible implication of any given statement. There is a great deal we disagree on, and it seems to me more than enough to build our conversations on. Why add to it?
BTW, if you don’t mind a small parting question here, why bread and water? Do you model your Sacrament on the Lord’s supper from the New Testament? If so, why not wine?
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SirThomasMore
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lol…keep trying. But it is in vain. I have read BY. I know what I read. I read and discern for a living. I have seen his quotes.
He was an embarrassment
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Caprica
Guest
Oh believe me, I already knew that this was in vain a few posts ago, since you have continued to ignore the sentence by Brigham Young immediately after the quote in question, as well another sentence by Brigham Young on the same issue. I personally prefer to know the entirety of what BY stated on the issue, so that I can know the clear qualifications that he placed on his statement.
But it certainly was amusing to see that context continuously ignored and not addressed.
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twopekinguys
Guest
Here is the way I see it.
If his sermons were published , (which they were), then something tells me they were edited or corrected.
If they weren’t edited/corrected to be in line with his line of thinking, why were they published?
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Caprica
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Can you please cite the sermons of Brigham Young that Brigham Young himself corrected and approved as scripture (in accordance with what Brigham Young himself said was necessary for a sermon of his to be considered scriptural)?
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twopekinguys
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Based on his quote, all of them.
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SirThomasMore
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Don’t need to. They were published. Certainly, the LDS Church would have published anything that was incorrect, right? Especially when their prophet allegedly speaks to God face to face
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Caprica
Guest
How does his quote lead to the conclusion that Brigham Young corrected all of his sermons and then approved them as scripture?
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Caprica
Guest
How does the “LDS Church” publishing something mean that Brigham Young corrected his sermons and approved them as scripture?
This is very simple: Brigham Young claimed that for a sermon of his to be scripture, it had to be corrected by him in addition to being approved by him. Therefore, one would have to demonstrate that this occurred for a sermon to be considered scriptural. This is what I am asking for (and not assumptions).
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SirThomasMore
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First, they did NOT have to be corrected first. Second, for them to be published when they were false, the LDS Church is either NOT led by a prophet or, they were valid sermons, ie. doctrine.
Which is it, exactly?
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