Question for Lutherans

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If I’m understanding history correctly, Luther didn’t want to break away from Catholicism but to improve upon it?
 
StGeorgesSquire said:
If I’m understanding history correctly, Luther didn’t want to break away from Catholicism but to improve upon it?
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I’m certain that this was true initially, but I also think his ideas evolved. In 1545, a year before his death, he wrote, Against the Roman Papacy an Institution of the Devil (Luther’s Works, Vol. 41), and I doubt that he envisioned still trying to reform the Catholic Church at this point.
 
StGeorgesSquire said:
If I’m understanding history correctly, Luther didn’t want to break away from Catholicism but to improve upon it?
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I have a caveat. A simple caveat, but an enormous caveat: history is never simple.

But if you’re looking for a short answer, yes. That’s generally correct.
 
and King Henry VIII sided with the Pope against Luther. the Pope gave King Henry VIII the title of Defender of the Faith. The king finally broke away for political reasons and Luther for theological reasons.
 
7_Sorrows said:
and King Henry VIII sided with the Pope against Luther. the Pope gave King Henry VIII the title of Defender of the Faith. The king finally broke away for political reasons and Luther for theological reasons.
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Don’t underestimate the political influence in the Lutheran Reformation

Jon
 
steido01 said:
I have a caveat. A simple caveat, but an enormous caveat: history is never simple.
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Isn’t that the truth? 😛

Another question: If Luther broke away from the Church by theological reasons and Henry VIII by political reasons, what made the other reformers break away (like Calvin, Zwingli, etc.?) Was it mostly because Luther was making headway and they followed suit?
 
JonNC said:
Don’t underestimate the political influence in the Lutheran Reformation

Jon
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Your right, and we can see the results of the Reformation. 40,000 plus different denominations. No unity there. God Bless, Memaw
 
StGeorgesSquire said:
Isn’t that the truth? 😛

Another question: If Luther broke away from the Church by theological reasons and Henry VIII by political reasons, what made the other reformers break away (like Calvin, Zwingli, etc.?) Was it mostly because Luther was making headway and they followed suit?
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I think they wanted to “have it their way” also. I think Henry VIII broke away because he wanted a divorce and the Church wouldn’t and couldn’t grant him one because his marriage to Catherine was a Sacrament. God Bless, Memaw
 
Thorolfr said:
I’m certain that this was true initially, but I also think his ideas evolved. In 1545, a year before his death, he wrote, Against the Roman Papacy an Institution of the Devil (Luther’s Works, Vol. 41), and I doubt that he envisioned still trying to reform the Catholic Church at this point.
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Luther feared for his own salvation. Was there some corruption in the Catholic Church at the time? Yes, but he used this to start his own church and create his own definitions.

There is no church that does not have sinners, and the indulgence issue was not pervasive throughout the church’s history.

For the OP - try researching his surrogate, Johannes Bugenhagen and the Churches of Norway and Iceland. It was not only a theological movement but very political.

I am not certain anyone knows with certainty what was in his head or what his intentions were. However, it is known that he commissioned vulgar images of the pope and that they arrested Catholic bishops in the north. Draw your own conclusions.
 
mattp0625 said:
Luther feared for his own salvation. Was there some corruption in the Catholic Church at the time? Yes, but he used this to start his own church and create his own definitions.

There is no church that does not have sinners, and the indulgence issue was not pervasive throughout the church’s history.

For the OP - try researching his surrogate, Johannes Bugenhagen and the Churches of Norway and Iceland. It was not only a theological movement but very political.

I am not certain anyone knows with certainty what was in his head or what his intentions were. However, it is known that he commissioned vulgar images of the pope and that they arrested Catholic bishops in the north. Draw your own conclusions.
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I had a very old German Catholic priest tell me that Luther asked for a valid Catholic Priest and had received Absolution and the Last Rites before he died. He said he studied Luther from the time he was very young. I pray that’s true. God Bless, Memaw
 
Memaw said:
I had a very old German Catholic priest tell me that Luther asked for a valid Catholic Priest and had received Absolution and the Last Rites before he died. He said he studied Luther from the time he was very young. I pray that’s true. God Bless, Memaw
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I didn’t know that. I’ll look into it. Thank you!

Although, wasn’t he excommunicated? Under that case, the priest would still go to him but would not have been able to absolve or anoint?
 
Memaw said:
Your right, and we can see the results of the Reformation. 40,000 plus different denominations. No unity there. God Bless, Memaw
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Please cite the reference on 40,000.

As well, there are many Catholic denominations, so the claim for unity would be somewhat flawed if the point is that unification is equal to correct teaching. At a minimum, the Great Schism put that thought to bed.

Doesn’t make Luther, or Henry, right though.

Pax.
 
ChurchSoldier said:
Please cite the reference on 40,000.

As well, there are many Catholic denominations, so the claim for unity would be somewhat flawed if the point is that unification is equal to correct teaching. At a minimum, the Great Schism put that thought to bed.

Doesn’t make Luther, or Henry, right though.

Pax.
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The Great Schism did not stop there. They fractured over and over. My understanding is that, for the most part, they are not in communion with the RCC.

We don’t say - we agree on the “essentials” and therefore we are in the same invisible church.

These eastern bishops split because the Crusaders, from all over Europe, pillaged Constantinople to receive adequate compensation for their troubles. They blamed the pope, even though he excommunicated these soldiers.

In any event, it’s not the same thing. The eastern churches often hold up Ignatius of Antioch as their link to apostolic succession, yet Ignatius spoke strongly against schism in the Church.🤷
 
ChurchSoldier said:
Please cite the reference on 40,000.

As well, there are many Catholic denominations, so the claim for unity would be somewhat flawed if the point is that unification is equal to correct teaching. At a minimum, the Great Schism put that thought to bed.

Doesn’t make Luther, or Henry, right though.

Pax.
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More importantly, it doesn’t make any of us today right, either.

Jon
 
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