Question for Mormons

  • Thread starter Thread starter rinnie
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
He may have written the above somewhere else, but I was reacting to this excerpt previously quoted in the thread:

“Christ was begotten by an immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers.” Bruce McKonkie, Mormon Doctrine 546-547."

<snip for space, to here>

At this point you have left Mconkie behind and are making points (valid ones, likely) outside his text. These points may be useful in understanding what Mormons believe, but the conclusion will be that you must reject Mconkie.

It is hard, because Mconkie made it so. He is saying something contrary to your beliefs. Your point about “out of context” may be valid, and to answer that we would have read the text surrounding this quotation. For my own curiosity I will look for this text in the library.
The question here now is…since when is Bruce R McConkie the entire arbitor of LDS belief? Yes, he wrote a book called “Mormon Doctrine,” and it is/was valuable. He was also told to FIX it because it had some problems. It is not one of the Standard Works, and although McConkie was a wonderful man, knowledgable and spiritual, he never did become the President of the church.

In fact, he wrote it when he was in the Quorum of Seventies…not an Apostle at the time, and he neglected to submit it to the Church’s Reading Council before he published it. That alone makes it his responsibility, not an official declaration of Mormon Doctrine. AMOF, two Apostles, Mark E. Peterson and Marion G. Romney found over a thousand corrections that needed to be made before a second edition was published, and the then President of the Church, David O McKay, didn’t want it published again, corrected or not.

It was, with a bunch of those corrections made, and with the very notable disclaimer that it did NOT reflect the official Doctrine of the church.

In fact, McConkie got into trouble for his rather blunt personal opinions reflected in the book, on topics that the church either held no positions in, or had official positions that contradicted McConkie’s words… (like organic evolution, “pre-Adamites,” death before the fall of man, the resurrection of still born children and, oh yes, the conception of Jesus). President McKay, Romney and Peterson all landed on him for presenting his personal opinion on these matters as doctrine—when his opinion was not doctrine.

McConkie, though, in spite of his very strong personal opinions, was a very strong and spiritual leader. “Mormon Doctrine” is a book that is very valuable in learning about us–as long as you remember what it is–and what it is NOT.

I keep hearing people insist that we nail down our doctrine on everything; we need a catechism, or a creed, or something that tells everybody exactly what to believe about everything.

Sorry, but that’s just not us. The problem is, we are viewed from outside as some mind controlled goosestepping cult that doesn’t want the members doing any thinking–so the outside demands are for those things we are supposed to BE thinking.

In reality, our basic core doctrines are simple…and outside of those core doctrines, we are very much allowed to think for ourselves. I keep hearing that 'figuring out Mormon Doctrine is like nailing jello to a wall" said in a frustrated and derogatory manner. The trouble is, it’s true. you AREN"T going to get official statements about what we MUST believe about drinking cola and the Word of Wisdom, or what we MUST believe in terms of evolution, or what we MUST believe about life on other worlds or what deification ultimately means, because y’know what?

We get to think for ourselves. There are a few very basic things that are core…and a few things that others insist that we must believe–that we don’t. One of those things is about the virginity of Mary at Jesus’ birth. She was virgin. Period.

Another of those things our description of the Godhead…Three Persons, separate, but equal in intent, power–and that thing called 'being God." Jesus is the Savior…the Only Begotten Son of God Who died for us and was resurrected. God created the entire universe through His Son, Jesus Christ, Whose Name is the only one by which we can be saved. Baptism is required, for everybody, and God has made it possible for all men to receive its blessings.

There is a living prophet guiding the church, with twelve apostles right up there with him…and yes, they do receive public revelation for guiding the church when required. Because there IS such a leader, we have an open canon.

Oh…just have a look at the thirteen articles of faith. After that, it is not reasonable of anybody to insist that we nail everything else down. It’s not required–it’s not ‘salvific.’
 
This book you have quoted is interesting. As I understand in my study of Mormonism, it was condemned by the prophet when it was first written on the grounds of its title, lack of permission to print by the prophet, and the assumption of Elder McConkie to speak on behalf of the Church. It is not the book of doctrine for the lDS Church.

Interesting quotes though, but as all Mormons who have talked to me, their doctrine is found in their books of scripture. I don’t have one handy, but I recall reading in the Book of Mormon and the Bible that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary.

As I have said before, Mormons would seem to need the equivalent of the Magisterium so that those of us who study Mormonism would understand their actual doctrine.
Mormons could benefit from a Catechism, or a book stating all their present doctrines, but the Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Catholic Church, comprized of the Pope and Bishops through the centuries.

I have no knowledge of the denial of the validity of Mormon Doctrines. It’s quoted as an authority very often and is still for sale in LDS bookstores.

Two quotes from my post were from McKonkie’s book; one was from Orson Pratt:
Originally Posted by Jim Dandy
Orson Pratt, original member of the Quorum of Twelve Disciples: “The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore the Father and Mother of Jesus must have been associated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife: hence, the Virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father.” The Seer, 158-159
Now we’re told this means they were physically united but there was no intercourse, but that somehow Heavenly Father transferred his DNA to Mary.

Either way, this idea is surely repugnant to all Christians. God is pure spirit and has neither body parts nor DNA.

Peace, Jim Dandy
 
Again, my objection to LDS beliefs is the claim that they are Christian. If it were not for that, I would have no comment.

Peace be with you, Jim Dandy
The question here now is…since when is Bruce R McConkie the entire arbitor of LDS belief? Yes, he wrote a book called “Mormon Doctrine,” and it is/was valuable. He was also told to FIX it because it had some problems. It is not one of the Standard Works, and although McConkie was a wonderful man, knowledgable and spiritual, he never did become the President of the church.

In fact, he wrote it when he was in the Quorum of Seventies…not an Apostle at the time, and he neglected to submit it to the Church’s Reading Council before he published it. That alone makes it his responsibility, not an official declaration of Mormon Doctrine. AMOF, two Apostles, Mark E. Peterson and Marion G. Romney found over a thousand corrections that needed to be made before a second edition was published, and the then President of the Church, David O McKay, didn’t want it published again, corrected or not.

It was, with a bunch of those corrections made, and with the very notable disclaimer that it did NOT reflect the official Doctrine of the church.

In fact, McConkie got into trouble for his rather blunt personal opinions reflected in the book, on topics that the church either held no positions in, or had official positions that contradicted McConkie’s words… (like organic evolution, “pre-Adamites,” death before the fall of man, the resurrection of still born children and, oh yes, the conception of Jesus). President McKay, Romney and Peterson all landed on him for presenting his personal opinion on these matters as doctrine—when his opinion was not doctrine.

McConkie, though, in spite of his very strong personal opinions, was a very strong and spiritual leader. “Mormon Doctrine” is a book that is very valuable in learning about us–as long as you remember what it is–and what it is NOT.

I keep hearing people insist that we nail down our doctrine on everything; we need a catechism, or a creed, or something that tells everybody exactly what to believe about everything.

Sorry, but that’s just not us. The problem is, we are viewed from outside as some mind controlled goosestepping cult that doesn’t want the members doing any thinking–so the outside demands are for those things we are supposed to BE thinking.

In reality, our basic core doctrines are simple…and outside of those core doctrines, we are very much allowed to think for ourselves. I keep hearing that 'figuring out Mormon Doctrine is like nailing jello to a wall" said in a frustrated and derogatory manner. The trouble is, it’s true. you AREN"T going to get official statements about what we MUST believe about drinking cola and the Word of Wisdom, or what we MUST believe in terms of evolution, or what we MUST believe about life on other worlds or what deification ultimately means, because y’know what?

We get to think for ourselves. There are a few very basic things that are core…and a few things that others insist that we must believe–that we don’t. One of those things is about the virginity of Mary at Jesus’ birth. She was virgin. Period.

Another of those things our description of the Godhead…Three Persons, separate, but equal in intent, power–and that thing called 'being God." Jesus is the Savior…the Only Begotten Son of God Who died for us and was resurrected. God created the entire universe through His Son, Jesus Christ, Whose Name is the only one by which we can be saved. Baptism is required, for everybody, and God has made it possible for all men to receive its blessings.

There is a living prophet guiding the church, with twelve apostles right up there with him…and yes, they do receive public revelation for guiding the church when required. Because there IS such a leader, we have an open canon.

Oh…just have a look at the thirteen articles of faith. After that, it is not reasonable of anybody to insist that we nail everything else down. It’s not required–it’s not ‘salvific.’
 
Again, my objection to LDS beliefs is the claim that they are Christian. If it were not for that, I would have no comment.

Peace be with you, Jim Dandy
Jim, I think you show a lack of integrity in your argument by relying on a self serving definition of Christian, a definition not shared by Webster or the academic community

Your definition of Christian is in reality a good and appropriate definition for Catholic. But the terms Christian and Catholic are not interchangeable, and I resent the Catholic position that they own the “christian brand”.

All Catholics may be Christian but all Christians are not Catholic
 
Oh…just have a look at the thirteen articles of faith. After that, it is not reasonable of anybody to insist that we nail everything else down. It’s not required–it’s not ‘salvific.’
Articles of faith-- dishonored in not being kept, based on my observations of Mormon behavior IRL. May have been an isolated situation, but perhaps they ought to be taught more aggressively in LDS communities. Mormons behaving badly makes the missionaries’ work more difficult. Then they go home imbued with an intense persecution complex. :rolleyes:
 
Your definition of Christian is in reality a good and appropriate definition for Catholic. But the terms Christian and Catholic are not interchangeable, and I resent the Catholic position that they own the “christian brand”.

All Catholics may be Christian but all Christians are not Catholic
Well stated, Todd. The problem with equating "Christian’ with any specific Christian system is that, well–we will get all the Christian groups claiming that anybody who disagrees with them in any way is "not Christian’ and therefore ‘other’ and fit for attacks, verbally and physically.

…wait…

too late.

(shall I take a poll as to which of the following is my favorite?)
 
Articles of faith-- dishonored in not being kept, based on my observations of Mormon behavior IRL. May have been an isolated situation, but perhaps they ought to be taught more aggressively in LDS communities. Mormons behaving badly makes the missionaries’ work more difficult. Then they go home imbued with an intense persecution complex. :rolleyes:
Mormons are people, LJ. Do you really want me to point out all the examples of Catholics who aren’t abiding by THEIR rules? Does the fact that so many Catholics sin…and sin big…make your faith untrue?
 
Well stated, Todd. The problem with equating "Christian’ with any specific Christian system is that, well–we will get all the Christian groups claiming that anybody who disagrees with them in any way is "not Christian’ and therefore ‘other’ and fit for attacks, verbally and physically.

…wait…

too late.

(shall I take a poll as to which of the following is my favorite?)
Hey Diana: Is picture number three the Santa Monica Blvd. Temple? It looks like the fence there.
 
Does the fact that so many Catholics sin…and sin big…make your faith untrue?
That is not my contention or purpose for making that statement. However, modern Catholics almost never claim that their religion is the reason for bad things they do.

Do you want to review your past posts for things you now realize may have added to the rift between LDS and Catholics? I really believe you** can** do that,👍 I don’t think it is my place to point them out to you.

Have you ever thought that you are allowed to exhibit your abrasive style on this board because of the magnificent backfire it causes?

What I AM saying is that LDS have a MASSIVE PR problem.
 
It was, with a bunch of those corrections made, and with the very notable disclaimer that it did NOT reflect the official Doctrine of the church.

I keep hearing people insist that we nail down our doctrine on everything; we need a catechism, or a creed, or something that tells everybody exactly what to believe about everything.

Sorry, but that’s just not us. The problem is, we are viewed from outside as some mind controlled goosestepping cult that doesn’t want the members doing any thinking–so the outside demands are for those things we are supposed to BE thinking.
I agree, but you’re not taking into account that until 1876, Doctrines and Covenants was adamantly against polygamy, and yet the male leadership practiced it anyway. In 1890, we have the Manifesto, which made it clear that the church was no longer polygamous, and yet the male membership practiced it anyway.

What you really mean here is that the reason there’s no clear point-by-point declaration of what Mormon doctrine is about any given thing is so the church can hold things as factual without letting the lay congragation know.
 
That is not my contention or purpose for making that statement. However, modern Catholics almost never claim that their religion is the reason for bad things they do.
Uhmn…

er…

(looking at some history…Inquisition, slavery, witch burning, slaughter of the Albegensians…)

With us, even with the MMM, the motive wasn’t “God told me to do this,” it was panic, fear and exagerated self defense coupled with an overwhelming frustration and obsession with vengeance…but nobody claimed that their religion was the reason.

Do you really want to go there?

With us, as with you…it’s not a good idea to blame the religion for the actions of those who break its rules.
Do you want to review your past posts for things you now realize may have added to the rift between LDS and Catholics? I really believe you** can** do that,👍 I don’t think it is my place to point them out to you.
Yes, actually, it IS ‘your place’; to point them out.
Have you ever thought that you are allowed to exhibit your abrasive style on this board because of the magnificent backfire it causes?
Pot, kettle, ebony…with most of the antis here on the board, LJ. For instance, you have never, EVER, seen a post from me that mocks or derides Catholicism or the Catholics. I may take issue with some historical action. I may disagree with some doctrine, but I have never once made fun of y’all. I have never exhibited disrespect for your leaders, Saints, Mary, your worship places or the methods you use to worship. If I am abrasive, it is always, ALWAYS, in response to someone who mocks, derides or deliberately misrepresents either me or my beliefs.

Go ahead. Prove me wrong; I have over five thousand posts here…if you are correct it should be easy to find an example of where I have made fun of Catholics or Catholicism, or have written an unprovoked insult—or even one that comes close to the one to which it is a response.

In this case, LJ, it really is your job to find one. Good luck with it.
What I AM saying is that LDS have a MASSIVE PR problem.
Caused by those who misrepresent who we are, yes. However, in that sense Catholics have exactly the same sort of PR problem.
 
All Catholics may be Christian but all Christians are not Catholic
I disagree with Catholicism often presenting itself as the only “Christian” faith; the differences between us and Protestants are the disagreements of men, not God.

Christians are Catholics, Protestants, Methodists, and Lutherans, but not Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses.
 
Uhmn…

Go ahead. Prove me wrong; I have over five thousand posts here…if you are correct it should be easy to find an example of where I have made fun of Catholics or Catholicism, or have written an unprovoked insult—or even one that comes close to the one to which it is a response.
He didn’t say you made fun of Catholics, he said you were abrasive.🤷
 
I disagree with Catholicism often presenting itself as the only “Christian” faith; the differences between us and Protestants are the disagreements of men, not God.

Christians are Catholics, Protestants, Methodists, and Lutherans, but not Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses.
I am perfectly happy to allow God to judge who is his disciple and who is not. A Protestant theologian stated, “All theologians bring certain doctrinal presuppositions and biases to Scripture as they seek to construct from Scripture their theologies. The true Wesleyan admits this and does not make correct doctrine a condition for salvation. We understand that if our sins are forgiven at the time of our death, we will be taken to heaven, even if our theology is off base a thousand miles. We are Christians if God, for Christ’s sake, forgives our sins. He is able to do this only because of the death and resurrection of the virgin-born God-man, Jesus Christ. But we do not need to believe in any given theory of the Incarnation or the Atonement in order to be forgiven through Christ.”

How grateful I am that Christ died for all and that he will be our judge. It matters nil these petty divisions individuals decry, those are but the sounds of tinkling brass. Have faith in Jesus Christ and through his atonment all will be forgiven and welcomed with open arms into heaven.
 
I thought it looked familiar. Complete with anti-prop 8ers, no doubt. 😦

Apologies for the brief dip OT, and I’ll let you get back to the disucssion.
Prop 8 got both of us. I found some anti-Catholic pictures that were…considerably worse…than anything I posted there. One involved burning crosses.

Scary, any way you want to look at it. I, frankly, HATE it.

Well, anybody who has read my posts for any length of time knows my opinion of anti-(insert belief system here) protests, posters, demonstrations, pamplhets, handouts…and books.
 
He didn’t say you made fun of Catholics, he said you were abrasive.🤷
And I challenged him to fins a post from me that included more than me making fun of Catholics. That challenge included finding one from me that was nastier than the post to which it was a response.

I’m glad, however, that you acknowledge at least that I do NOT make fun of Catholics and Catholicism.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top