Question for Muslims...

[Reuben_J]

Why is it lying? Can’t God do whatever He wills?

Why all the calls throughout the Bible for people to repent if there’s no hope of forgiveness?

There is hope in Jesus.

But forgiveness is not entirely earned by what you do personally. You cannot buy forgiveness. But God forgives you even though you don’t entirely deserve it.

God has to be true to his words and his laws. He does not forgive you without being true to his laws. He has to do something in his forgiveness that satisfies the requirement of his own words. This is all because of his love and mercy.

In Christianity, God’s words never change. That’s why the abrogation of some Quranic verses is a big, big, big problem with Christians. For that matter, God’s commandments also apply to all mankind too. The fact that Islamic Allah gave different laws to different Muslims is another big problem with Christians. God does not change and his words and commandments remain the same forever.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Yes, the stoning is a bit on the far side isn’t it?

Yet if we consider that culture of Islam in the middle east, its really not crazy. Not when you consider slavery, hanging, and gun duals exited in the US not very long ago.

The complexity of the religious situation world wide is staggering. Then to think Iran wants to wipe Israel off the map while Israel has enough Nuclear Weapons to destroy the middle east? Its insanity at its best. And satan cries… Begin!

So why does Islam want to kill all the Jews?

 

[Reuben_J]

Yes, the stoning is a bit on the far side isn’t it?

Yet if we consider that culture of Islam in the middle east, its really not crazy. Not when you consider slavery, hanging, and gun duals exited in the US not very long ago.

The complexity of the religious situation world wide is staggering. Then to think Iran wants to wipe Israel off the map while Israel has enough Nuclear Weapons to destroy the middle east? Its insanity at its best. And satan cries… Begin!

So why does Islam want to kill all the Jews?

You know, Gary, I have stood on record in this CAF risking my neck defending the Church’s position that Muslims worshipped the same God as us. At the rate that Islam laws are being practiced as what they are, it getting more and more difficult task to do, no doubt.

 

[GaryTaylor]

You know, Gary, I have stood on record in this CAF risking my neck defending the Church’s position that Muslims worshipped the same God as us. At the rate that Islam laws are being practiced as what they are, it getting more and more difficult task to do, no doubt.

Very easy to get caught up in your own feelings in regards to Islam. Much chaos and violence to provoke those feelings.

There just doesn’t appear to be voice of reason coming forward. One keeps thinking that a rational mind will prevail at some point. Doesn’t seem so.

The persistant thinking in conquering in this age? Its hard to wrap your head around. Yet power corrupts completely as we know.

We would like to think we are much to civil to revisit the path of nuclear war. And many scholars feel we have passed that period in time. Thats not the feeling I get. I would hope a rational thinker would arrive soon.

 

[thedarknight]

Yes, the stoning is a bit on the far side isn’t it?

Yet if we consider that culture of Islam in the middle east, its really not crazy. Not when you consider slavery, hanging, and gun duals exited in the US not very long ago.

Slavery, hanging, and gun duals are not condoned in the bible. In contrast, the Koran specifically states to kill non-Muslims.

This is found in Sura [Chapter 9] verse 29 AL-TAWBA (REPENTANCE, DISPENSATION):

Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book [Jews and Christians], until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Source: usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/009.qmt.html

So why does Islam want to kill all the Jews?

Perhaps you need to read the Koran and find out what it says about the Jews. Hint: Jews (and Christians) are considered kuffar or kafirun (unbelievers).

 

[Sister_Amy]

Very easy to get caught up in your own feelings in regards to Islam. Much chaos and violence to provoke those feelings.

There just doesn’t appear to be voice of reason coming forward. One keeps thinking that a rational mind will prevail at some point. Doesn’t seem so.

The persistant thinking in conquering in this age? Its hard to wrap your head around. Yet power corrupts completely as we know.

We would like to think we are much to civil to revisit the path of nuclear war. And many scholars feel we have passed that period in time. Thats not the feeling I get. I would hope a rational thinker would arrive soon.

It wouldn’t really be fair of me to make an assumption, but where do you her that “there doesn’t appear to be a voice of reason coming forward?” Where do you get your news about the Muslim world?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Slavery, hanging, and gun duals are not condoned in the bible. In contrast, the Koran specifically states to kill non-Muslims.

This is found in Sura [Chapter 9] verse 29 AL-TAWBA (REPENTANCE, DISPENSATION):

Source: usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/009.qmt.html

Perhaps you need to read the Koran and find out what it says about the Jews. Hint: Jews (and Christians) are considered kuffar or kafirun (unbelievers).

Try reading the Qur’an yourself. I think most of the posters here are more informed than you think, if you think anyone’s going to believe you on this count.

 

[Sister_Amy]

There is hope in Jesus.

But forgiveness is not entirely earned by what you do personally. You cannot buy forgiveness. But God forgives you even though you don’t entirely deserve it.

God has to be true to his words and his laws. He does not forgive you without being true to his laws. He has to do something in his forgiveness that satisfies the requirement of his own words. This is all because of his love and mercy.

In Christianity, God’s words never change. That’s why the abrogation of some Quranic verses is a big, big, big problem with Christians. For that matter, God’s commandments also apply to all mankind too. The fact that Islamic Allah gave different laws to different Muslims is another big problem with Christians. God does not change and his words and commandments remain the same forever.

If there’s only hope in Jesus, then nobody who lived before Jesus would have had any hope. Is that fair? God kept sending them prophets, kept telling them to repent, but not about Jesus, not what the Church teaches today. So are they just screwed?

Moreover, if God’s “words and commandment remain the same forever,” then why don’t Christians have to follow all those laws in the Old Testament? A complicated answer summed into a simple word: abrogation.

 

[Reuben_J]

If there’s only hope in Jesus, then nobody who lived before Jesus would have had any hope. Is that fair? God kept sending them prophets, kept telling them to repent, but not about Jesus, not what the Church teaches today. So are they just screwed? .

God is not confined to time and space and therefore in the final judgment those who lived before Jesus may receive this grace all the same.

Moreover, if God’s “words and commandment remain the same forever,” then why don’t Christians have to follow all those laws in the Old Testament? A complicated answer summed into a simple word: abrogation.

That’s a good question. The answer is of course, Jesus. And yes, it takes a bit of explanation too. I referred to the Quranic abrogation to demonstrate my saying that God words or message did not change and therefore he would not do it any different from what he did before. That’s why merely being repented is not enough to earn forgiveness unless God did something to comply with his own set of justice. Yes, God forgives those who sincerely repent but it’s out of his mercy and love and he has to do something to affect this forgiveness so that what he does is consistent with his ways and his words.

In this respect Quranic abrogation and the Islamic position that certain people are given exception in following Allah’s words is big a problem for Christians for them to rationalize that Islamic Allah should be the same God as theirs.

 

[Sister_Amy]

God is not confined to time and space and therefore in the final judgment those who lived before Jesus may receive this grace all the same.

God may not be so confined but isn’t Jesus? He wasn’t born before Adam, nobody was preaching “Repent and believe that Jesus died/will die for your sins.” It was just “repent.” Follow the law, you know?

So if people who lived before Jesus can receive what you call grace, then why not people after him who also don’t believe that a human could be divine? If you open the door for one group, then why not the other? That’s a problem for me.

That’s a good question. The answer is of course, Jesus. And yes, it takes a bit of explanation too. I referred to the Quranic abrogation to demonstrate my saying that God words or message did not change and therefore he would not do it any different from what he did before. That’s why merely being repented is not enough to earn forgiveness unless God did something to comply with his own set of justice. Yes, God forgives those who sincerely repent but it’s out of his mercy and love and he has to do something to affect this forgiveness so that what he does is consistent with his ways and his words.

In this respect Quranic abrogation and the Islamic position that certain people are given exception in following Allah’s words is big a problem for Christians for them to rationalize that Islamic Allah should be the same God as theirs.

Are you saying that Jesus can abrogate the Old Testament but God can’t?

(And I don’t know what you mean by “certain people are given exception…” If you want me to follow-up on that, I’d ask you to clarify.)

 

[Reuben_J]

God may not be so confined but isn’t Jesus? He wasn’t born before Adam, nobody was preaching “Repent and believe that Jesus died/will die for your sins.” It was just “repent.” Follow the law, you know?

So if people who lived before Jesus can receive what you call grace, then why not people after him who also don’t believe that a human could be divine? If you open the door for one group, then why not the other? That’s a problem for me.

One has to get the correct understanding of who Jesus is – that he is of one substance (person) but two natures (God and man). Before Jesus came or before God incarnate, the law applies at it was. If you sin you pay the consequence – depend on the severity of the sin the consequence may be death. Even if you were forgiven, you would still receive the physical consequence of sin though spiritually God forgave you. Good example was that of David – eventhough he repented for his adultery and he was forgiven no doubt, he still experienced the consequence of this sin – his son died at childbirth. In this situation that was how God handled forgiveness – he forgives but the penitent still has to receive the consequence of sin.

There were many good people before Jesus came; they would have no chance of going to heaven on their own act of repentance because it would not be perfect but what was short, God made up for it by paying for the consequence of sin himself. Thus in the final judgment which everybody must face, these people were also saved by grace of Jesus Christ. Heavenly journey is not confined to time and space in that the final judgment is not confined to time and space.

No, while they were alive they did not experienced what we experienced today because there was no Jesus then but Jesus’ grace does cover them because there is no time and space after death and with God.

Are you saying that Jesus can abrogate the Old Testament but God can’t?

Nothing like that but the opposite. The Old Testament is not abrogated; it is a continuation of the action of God. I hope my explanation above shed some light. I would be glad to continue though.

(And I don’t know what you mean by “certain people are given exception…” If you want me to follow-up on that, I’d ask you to clarify.)

I am not an expert in Islam thus what I am saying here is what Muslims themselves told me. An example - the maximum number of wives allowed for a man is four but Mohammad was allowed more than four wives because of the thing he had to do. That what I was told. And Muslims are adamant that Mohammad was mere human. So in the Christian perspective this is not consistent with God’s way; as if God is changing his rule, his precept.

It’s good if you can explain for the sake of better understanding for us.

 

[Sister_Amy]

One has to get the correct understanding of who Jesus is – that he is of one substance (person) but two natures (God and man). Before Jesus came or before God incarnate, the law applies at it was. If you sin you pay the consequence – depend on the severity of the sin the consequence may be death. Even if you were forgiven, you would still receive the physical consequence of sin though spiritually God forgave you. Good example was that of David – eventhough he repented for his adultery and he was forgiven no doubt, he still experienced the consequence of this sin – his son died at childbirth. In this situation that was how God handled forgiveness – he forgives but the penitent still has to receive the consequence of sin.

There were many good people before Jesus came; they would have no chance of going to heaven on their own act of repentance because it would not be perfect but what was short, God made up for it by paying for the consequence of sin himself. Thus in the final judgment which everybody must face, these people were also saved by grace of Jesus Christ. Heavenly journey is not confined to time and space in that the final judgment is not confined to time and space.

No, while they were alive they did not experienced what we experienced today because there was no Jesus then but Jesus’ grace does cover them because there is no time and space after death and with God.

Nothing like that but the opposite. The Old Testament is not abrogated; it is a continuation of the action of God. I hope my explanation above shed some light. I would be glad to continue though.

I am not an expert in Islam thus what I am saying here is what Muslims themselves told me. An example - the maximum number of wives allowed for a man is four but Mohammad was allowed more than four wives because of the thing he had to do. That what I was told. And Muslims are adamant that Mohammad was mere human. So in the Christian perspective this is not consistent with God’s way; as if God is changing his rule, his precept.

It’s good if you can explain for the sake of better understanding for us.

If Jesus didn’t exist then how is it that he can be God? Doesn’t God always exist?

Unless Christians still have to follow the laws in the Old Testament, then those laws were abrogated. That’s pretty much the meaning of the word.

And how is it inconsistent for a prophet to be human instead of divine? All of God’s prophets were human. Only Christians believe there to be an exception.

 

[Louie1983]

**If Jesus didn’t exist then how is it that he can be God? Doesn’t God always exist? **Unless Christians still have to follow the laws in the Old Testament, then those laws were abrogated. That’s pretty much the meaning of the word.

And how is it inconsistent for a prophet to be human instead of divine? All of God’s prophets were human. Only Christians believe there to be an exception.

Because God became man! Became Flesh, there has always been a holy trinity (father,son and holy spirit) God(Jesus) always existed he just chose to reveal himself in humanity at a certain time.

 

[Augustine3]

Does finite penance offered by man satisfy the infinite offense to God Yes/No?

Hi Amy,

You missed my question…

 

[Reuben_J]

If Jesus didn’t exist then how is it that he can be God? Doesn’t God always exist?

You must have missed what I wrote in my last post because that would have answered this question. So I quote it here again:

***One has to get the correct understanding of who Jesus is – that he is of one substance (person) but two natures (God and man). ***

God always exist, Jesus is the Word that is described in the Bible. At some point in time God became man out of his own choice but his nature as God was not substituted by a man. He was still God, as God and as man the same time. If God wishes to be a stone, or a wind, he would be able to do that but at the same time still maintaining his nature except that now he is both Stone and God. As stone he is just like any other stone and as God he is still the same as he is. That is what Jesus is except he is not a stone (that being an example) but a human.

Unless Christians still have to follow the laws in the Old Testament, then those laws were abrogated. That’s pretty much the meaning of the word.

Those laws were not abrogated they were still being enforced. If for example the consequence of sin is death in the Old Testaments; it is still the same in the New. Except that the death consequence is done by God himself so that mankind does not need to experience it.

The old deal was, you sin you die.

The new deal was, God forgives if you believe (includes repent). But what about the part that’s having to die? It just doesn’t simply disappear or out of the equation because if that is, then God is not consistent with his own word. Thus the new deal is God forgives but he pays the consequence himself. And on our part we have to believe. If we don’t believe it means we do not accept the new deal.

So there is no abrogation. It was simply the continued action of God in history because that action was prophesized/foretold by him in the beginning. The Bible was written during a period of some thousands of years and what happened with Jesus was foretold in the beginning. So nothing is abrogated.

The verses in the Quran were abrogated as admitted by Muslims themselves. It was authored during a period of two decades or so. Lots of truth is being missed there but instead being replaced with some untruth. Even though it is a book that contains many spiritual virtues it also contains error and untruth. The fact that it does not use the ancient scripture of the Bible but instead compose one itself makes it very unreliable indeed.

And how is it inconsistent for a prophet to be human instead of divine? All of God’s prophets were human. Only Christians believe there to be an exception.

Of course all God’s prophets were humans. This is exactly what Christians believe. God never made a prophet into God. God is God and only himself can be God, not any human, not anything else.

**The belief that God made a prophet into God is a wrong belief attributed to Christianity by Muslims who cannot understand Christian theology. So here I correct that perception – that it is not Christian belief that God made a prophet to become God.
**

 

[JugglingReferee]

So you don’t believe in punishment, then? Let all the criminals out of jail?

I remember something about Jesus and mentioning paradise to a thief.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I remember something about Jesus and mentioning paradise to a thief.

Does that mean you don’t believe in the criminal justice system?

I just want to know… in case you ever run for office or anything.

 

[Sister_Amy]

You must have missed what I wrote in my last post because that would have answered this question. So I quote it here again:

***One has to get the correct understanding of who Jesus is – that he is of one substance (person) but two natures (God and man). ***

Just because I read it didn’t mean that I understood it. Let me elaborate:

God supposedly has one nature, but three persons (said elsewhere on the forum.) And you just said that Jesus (who is considered divine by Christianity) has two natures, God and man.

That means that God has two natures, doesn’t it? Three persons of god-like nature and however many persons of man-like nature, and Jesus is in the middle like a Venn Diagram.

To me that makes no sense whatsoever.

God always exist, Jesus is the Word that is described in the Bible. **At some point in time **God became man out of his own choice but his nature as God was not substituted by a man. He was still God, as God and as man the same time. If God wishes to be a stone, or a wind, he would be able to do that but at the same time still maintaining his nature except that now he is both Stone and God. As stone he is just like any other stone and as God he is still the same as he is. That is what Jesus is except he is not a stone (that being an example) but a human.

Sorry, still doesn’t make sense. Are you saying that God’s nature changed? Because at some point in time you allege that he “became man” (I feel dirty just typing that). That means at some point in time, He wasn’t. How’s that work?

In my mind, the nature of a stone and the nature of the wind are rather distinct and limited, and not something I could attribute to the Divine “nature” Who Created Them. I can’t hold two mutually exclusive concepts as true at the same time like that. It’s a problem for me.

Those laws were not abrogated they were still being enforced. If for example the consequence of sin is death in the Old Testaments; it is still the same in the New. Except that the death consequence is done by God himself so that mankind does not need to experience it.

The old deal was, you sin you die.

The new deal was, God forgives if you believe (includes repent). But what about the part that’s having to die? It just doesn’t simply disappear or out of the equation because if that is, then God is not consistent with his own word. Thus the new deal is God forgives but he pays the consequence himself. And on our part we have to believe. If we don’t believe it means we do not accept the new deal.

So there is no abrogation. It was simply the continued action of God in history because that action was prophesized/foretold by him in the beginning. The Bible was written during a period of some thousands of years and what happened with Jesus was foretold in the beginning. So nothing is abrogated.

But everybody dies anyway. Believing in God doesn’t prevent you from dying. How is that forgiveness? If the penalty is death, and you still die, you still get the penalty. Or so it seems. Could you explain that?

The verses in the Quran were abrogated as admitted by Muslims themselves. It was authored during a period of two decades or so. Lots of truth is being missed there but instead being replaced with some untruth. Even though it is a book that contains many spiritual virtues it also contains error and untruth. The fact that it does not use the ancient scripture of the Bible but instead compose one itself makes it very unreliable indeed.

I for one think that “abrogation” of some verses is pretty miraculous. Take as an example the punishment for fornication (which is not the same as adultery, incidentally). The first punishment which is prescribed in the Qur’an is one thing, and then later something else is prescribed. Why?

Because a punishment was needed, at first, but it left room for something else. In fact, the ayah goes along the lines “for the person thus accused, do such-and-such, until they die (naturally) or Allah makes for them another way out.” And then, Allah makes another way out! So the final punishment (the one which abrogated the prior one) couldn’t be properly implemented at first. But something had to be.

Kinda cool, huh? The society evolved, and so did rulings. It’s actually tremendously beneficial to Muslims to learn this because societies still develop, and laws cannot always be implemented the same way. Something that’s sinful before God stays sinful. But the society might not always be equipped to deal with it the same way.

Of course all God’s prophets were humans. This is exactly what Christians believe. God never made a prophet into God. God is God and only himself can be God, not any human, not anything else.

The belief that God made a prophet into God is a wrong belief attributed to Christianity by Muslims who cannot understand Christian theology. So here I correct that perception – that it is not Christian belief that God made a prophet to become God.

So was Jesus a prophet or not?

 

[Reuben_J]

So was Jesus a prophet or not?

Jesus was first and foremost a person that has two natures - God and man. In his human nature, he was many things - he was the son of a carpenter, a teacher and a friend. In the sense that he is a teacher, one can say he is a prophet too because that what prophets do sometimes. He also healed people and one could say he is a doctor.

Any of those attribute does not change the nature of Jesus.

 

[Reuben_J]

Just because I read it didn’t mean that I understood it. Let me elaborate:

God supposedly has one nature, but three persons (said elsewhere on the forum.) And you just said that Jesus (who is considered divine by Christianity) has two natures, God and man.

Which is true, so far.

That means that God has two natures, doesn’t it? Three persons of god-like nature and however many persons of man-like nature, and Jesus is in the middle like a Venn Diagram.

To me that makes no sense whatsoever.

It makes no sense to you because you do not listen to what is being said by those who explain it to you. You simply make up your mind regardless of what the explanation is and go into a one way train of thought.

Nobody says Jesus in the middle or anything like that.

The three persons in one God are:
The Father
The Son
The Holy Spirit.

They are one but manifest in three persons. Even the word manifest may not be entirely accurate description in the theological sense but one can get the idea from that.

The second person, that is the Son, has two natures, the other being a man.

So what so difficult about that.

Sorry, still doesn’t make sense. Are you saying that God’s nature changed? Because at some point in time you allege that he “became man” (I feel dirty just typing that). That means at some point in time, He wasn’t. How’s that work?

God’s natures do not change for God is not governed by time and space. To mankind in history, yes, in the sense that there was no Jesus (the man) before he was born but God was always there.

I can understand that you feel dirty – this is not taught and not believed in Islam. And I think that’s your problem in understanding the whole thing because you are handicapped by your own unopeness.

In my mind, the nature of a stone and the nature of the wind are rather distinct and limited, and not something I could attribute to the Divine “nature” Who Created Them. I can’t hold two mutually exclusive concepts as true at the same time like that. It’s a problem for me.

They are not created if that is what they are in the beginning. It is your human mind that keeps thinking that the ‘stone’ must be created.

But everybody dies anyway. Believing in God doesn’t prevent you from dying. How is that forgiveness? If the penalty is death, and you still die, you still get the penalty. Or so it seems. Could you explain that?

I will be simple here. But people dies before their time because of the sin they committed.

I for one think that “abrogation” of some verses is pretty miraculous. Take as an example the punishment for fornication (which is not the same as adultery, incidentally). The first punishment which is prescribed in the Qur’an is one thing, and then later something else is prescribed. Why?

Because a punishment was needed, at first, but it left room for something else. In fact, the ayah goes along the lines “for the person thus accused, do such-and-such, until they die (naturally) or Allah makes for them another way out.” And then, Allah makes another way out! So the final punishment (the one which abrogated the prior one) couldn’t be properly implemented at first. But something had to be.

I can understand if the words in the parenthesis are the explanation. No problem for me then. What I understand about abrogation is that the command was being abrogated later like null and void.

Kinda cool, huh? The society evolved, and so did rulings. It’s actually tremendously beneficial to Muslims to learn this because societies still develop, and laws cannot always be implemented the same way. Something that’s sinful before God stays sinful. But the society might not always be equipped to deal with it the same way.

I was talking about a God that never changes. I don’t see how it can square with that no matter how much we like changes.

Why stoning is still practiced, BTW?