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Sister_Amy
Guest
Which was?
That in the absence of evidence, arguments dissolve into shouting matches?
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That in the absence of evidence, arguments dissolve into shouting matches?
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Reuben_J
Guest
Amy, I have to be frank with you here. On what authority can I do that?
The Saudi government has their own scholars and Islamic Institutions to back their claim. I would want to and trust you, but I would be taking a position of a faction in Islam. How can I then answer another Muslims who would have different view that yours?
You know I am a Catholic, but I cannot speak for the Protestants. Even among Catholic I could err too. I want to you believe me too, as far as Catholicism is concerned but then I cannot speak for Protestant Christians.
Here you differ greatly with the Muslims in the government of Saudi Arabia, so whom I to believe? Even if I believe in you, it proves my point too - that you people differ on this subject. I don’t need an expert qualification to see that.
BTW, I am using the word heretic which means to say about this difference. If you are not, then they are.
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Reuben_J
Guest
That Muslims cannot agree on what constitute Sharia government.
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Sister_Amy
Guest
Find me the Muslims (the ones who aren’t Saudi, especially) who actually say that Saudi Arabia is run entirely according to Shari’ah. The CIA (just as an example) is on my side. It says that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (i.e., the Arab peninsula governed by a monarchy of the family of Saud) is, well, a monarchy.
And while they certainly incorporate Shari’ah into their legal system (just like the USA incorporates some Judeo-Christian laws into theirs, actually), they pretty much pick-and-choose and follow culture a lot of times even over Islam.
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Sister_Amy
Guest
I was arguing that non-Muslims don’t know what Shari’ah is. That’s why they keep saying everything is Shari’ah when in fact, none of what they point to actually is.
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Reuben_J
Guest
Their government says it is Sharia Law. You can find that all over their brochures and in the internet.
Like I said, whom I to believe, you or them? On what authority can you reject their claim?
Now even if you are right, the fact remains that there are others Muslims who think differently.
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FightingFat
Guest
This says it’s based on Shar’iah
countrystudies.us/saudi-arabia/51.htm
This site seems to intimate that Saudi runs on Shar’iah
justlanded.com/english/Saudi-Arabia/Saudi-Arabia-Guide/Legal-System/Introduction
This site states that it is ruled on the basis of Shar’iah
jurist.law.pitt.edu/world/saudiarabia.htm
This is from the Saudi website:
saudiembassy.net/archive/2006/transcript/Page4.aspx
I think this speech says plainly that Saudi Arabia is a Shar’iah country saudiembassy.net/archive/1992/speeches/page3.aspx
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mdrummer5
Guest
I guess not lol… and I’ve not had a sufficient amount of caffeine yet to read all that… but I will… I just wanted to let you know that as things come up I do have honest questions about the faith and I truly appreciate it when someone takes the time to explain such things.
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FightingFat
Guest
You’re welcome! I hope it makes sense, please feel free to ask if you need any more info!
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Sister_Amy
Guest
As (I thought) I mentioned before, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is a monarchy. They do incorporate some of Shari’ah into their government and can say that their government is “based” on Shari’ah.
But it’s not exclusively Shari’ah. That’s my point. And I’ve never heard Muslim scholars (the ones who really ought to know what Shari’ah is and isn’t) ever argue that Saudi Arabia is fully on Shari’ah. So if you can find me some Muslim scholars then we can progress forward on the discussion.
But I’ve yet to see any fair contradiction to my prior claims.
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Reuben_J
Guest
Sister Amy:
It’s unbecoming and rather strange for a Quranic scholar not to use the word accurately in the Hadith in her explanation. I would expect you to quote the Hadith in your explanation; you didn’t and circumscribed it with the words ‘tight embrace’ thus altered the meaning altogether.
I don’t agree that the Hadith is talking about ‘tight embrace’ at all; the words ‘caught me forcefully’ and ‘that I could not bear it anymore’, the latter was repeated three times for good measure, certainly impresses upon the readers that the pressing was done with great force until Mohammad could not stand it before he was released each time.
Think about a prison interrogator pushing a man by the head into a bathtub of water only to release him until he gasps for breathe and to repeat the action until the prisoner capitulates and agrees to confess. Looks like that what that thing did to Mohammad!
A tight embrace is a loving gesture of endearment and Mohammad certainly did not feel being loved at all after this experience but instead the opposite as evidence by his subsequence bout of depression. We have to read between the lines and their logical conclusion too and FightingFat in his post had done that quite well.
Probably you thought we didn’t know the Hadith and thus forced to backtrack when it was presented to you. I am highlighting this so that we can see what kind of a poster you are. I am now have forgotten about the Ad Hominem earlier on.
Sister Amy:
‘caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more’ is quite a different thing from ‘tight embrace’. It is quite ingenious of you to bluff us ignorant Christians about your Quran and Hadith. Poor FightingFat whom you gave the explanation.
It’s unbecoming and rather strange for a Quranic scholar not to use the word accurately in the Hadith in her explanation. I would expect you to quote the Hadith in your explanation; you didn’t and circumscribed it with the words ‘tight embrace’ thus altered the meaning altogether.
I don’t agree that the Hadith is talking about ‘tight embrace’ at all; the words ‘caught me forcefully’ and ‘that I could not bear it anymore’, the latter was repeated three times for good measure, certainly impresses upon the readers that the pressing was done with great force until Mohammad could not stand it before he was released each time.
Think about a prison interrogator pushing a man by the head into a bathtub of water only to release him until he gasps for breathe and to repeat the action until the prisoner capitulates and agrees to confess. Looks like that what that thing did to Mohammad!
A tight embrace is a loving gesture of endearment and Mohammad certainly did not feel being loved at all after this experience but instead the opposite as evidence by his subsequence bout of depression. We have to read between the lines and their logical conclusion too and FightingFat in his post had done that quite well.
Probably you thought we didn’t know the Hadith and thus forced to backtrack when it was presented to you. I am highlighting this so that we can see what kind of a poster you are. I am now have forgotten about the Ad Hominem earlier on.
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Sam_777
Guest
Sharia law is the constitution of Saudi Arabia, when you go to the court or any government entity you would notice that, even we have religious police “هيئة الأمر بالمعروف والنهي عن المنكر” to make sure that everyone is following the Islamic Sharia.
What I like about Sharia that it forces people from committing sins on themselves and others, and what I dislike about it that it teaches discriminations and hatred towards other faiths.
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Reuben_J
Guest
Thanks Sam.
Yours is a lone voice here but I hope you are being taken seriously considering your background as someone who has read the Quran.
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meedo
Guest
The closest nation i can find to the true essence of Islam is Turkey (under the current government of Receb Tayyeb Ardogan )
Saudi is a messed up country.
Saudi is a messed up country.
M
meedo
Guest
Hello,Hi,
I just wanted to clarify something about your beliefs… how do you believe that a person is forgiven of sin? Do you pray for forgiveness? and what makes forgiveness possible?
Thank you
to be forgiven of sin a person must do the following in sincerity:
1- Regret the sin
2- Stop doing the sin
3- Make his mind to never do it again.
4- Recompensate the person whom he done injustice.
5- Ask God for forgiveness
6- Do good deeds.
In Islam one must maintain a healthy balance between hope and fear. Hope in God’s mercy and fear of angering him by our sins.
Hope that clarified.
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Reuben_J
Guest
It’s interesting when something is new it seems to be always promising. God willing, I hope we’ll live long enough to see how it works out. It’s ironic too that a true essence of Islam should come out from a country with secular background.
It should tell us something about the viability of Islamic Sharia.
And confirms what I was saying. Humans cannot carry out God’s justice; humans being imperfect are unable to carry out the justice of a perfect God. It’s all a myth. If Saudi Arabia, a 100% Muslims country, cannot come out with a true Islamic government what hopes then those countries which have only Muslims majority population?
Of course yours is a personal opinion and seems to be the position of some Muslim posters in CAF. Unfortunately I don’t think the Saudi government agrees with that assessment.
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Sister_Amy
Guest
He’s not being taken seriously by me, if that’s what you meant.Thanks Sam.
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Sister_Amy
Guest
I stand by what I said, and don’t really appreciate your wild fantasy here, trying to make up things that didn’t happen, or to distort the truth so something benign sounds evil.
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meedo
Guest
There are many forms of Sharia that goes hand in hand with secular law. And in Islam there are some issues that come as more important than others. Good education… freedom of opinion and freedom of election. absence of oppression … all these stuff are from sharia… may be they are common in secular law but they are from sharia… and they come as much moer important than enforcing headscarves in the street. Turkey is not sharia free… it was just smart enough to apply the most important aspects first . Remember it was the Muslim leaning party that created most of the economic, democratic and social success that Turkey enjoys today!
I say Turkey is closest to the essence of islam because of
1- People can elect whom they see fit
2- The ruling party is educated and seeks popular support , respects election and the rule of law ( weather bieng influenced by sharia or not)
3- Economic development
4- Educational development
5- The positive influence of faith onto the current government
As for Saudi… they are far away from the essence of Islam but are just trying to enforce the outer crust …sharia is not teh problem here… it is simply people know that there are deep seeted problems that are much more important . The saudi government are all bunch of rich oil emirs that dont care less about islam except for a show. To start with… they were never elected by the people.
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Reuben_J
Guest
So you are saying being ‘squeezed in tight embrace’ is ‘pretty much the same thing’ as being ‘caught (forcefully) and pressed so hard that he could not bear it any more’. The former were your words.
The Hadith does not indicate it as a tight embrace. Any unsuspecting readers when reading about thing like ‘tight embrace’ would conjure a mental picture of long lost lovers or parents and children in ‘tight embrace’ But was that so in the Hadith?
The creature caught Mohammad forcefully, pressing him until he could not bear it anymore before he was released. The creature again caught Mohammad forcefully, pressing him until he could not bear it anymore before he was released. And again the creature caught Mohammad forcefully, pressing him until he could not bear it anymore before he was released. Then the creature told Mohammad about the revelation which Mohammad must receive.
I don’t know about you, but I think (1) force was being used on Mohammad, (2) unbearable pain was inflicted on Mohammad and (3) in the manner the revelation was forced to be received it looks like it was being forced unto Mohammad.
When Angel Gabriel was mentioned in the Bible, far from it that he would do such a thing to the recipient of the message that he delivered.
Well, I don’t know. You are the expert so be it what you say then.
But I know who would use such tactic as the one in the Hadith to force its influence and power on a person concerned.
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