Question for Non Catholics regarding Truth

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Most faithful protestants don’t accept all the views held by all protestant faiths of course, but what’s more, they don’t necessarily agree with everything their own Church professes.

Faithful Catholics, on the other hand, believe that their Church was founded by Christ and that it teaches in the fullness of Truth.

My queston:

Does this belief held by Catholics appeal to you even if you don’t accept that the Catholic Church is true?
 
CHESTERTONRULES said:
Most faithful protestants don’t accept all the views held by all protestant faiths of course, but what’s more, they don’t necessarily agree with everything their own Church professes.

Faithful Catholics, on the other hand, believe that their Church was founded by Christ and that it teaches in the fullness of Truth.

My queston:

Does this belief held by Catholics appeal to you even if you don’t accept that the Catholic Church is true?
Click to expand...
Although the question seems a bit vague, I’ll say that protestants also believe that their Church was founded by Christ and that it teaches in the fullness of Truth.
 
Xavierlives said:
Although the question seems a bit vague, I’ll say that protestants also believe that their Church was founded by Christ and that it teaches in the fullness of Truth.
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Which protestants?

I’ve never heard a protestant claim that his Church was founded by Christ. It would be silly to do so, don’t you think?
 
CHESTERTONRULES said:
Most faithful protestants don’t accept all the views held by all protestant faiths of course, but what’s more, they don’t necessarily agree with everything their own Church professes.

Faithful Catholics, on the other hand, believe that their Church was founded by Christ and that it teaches in the fullness of Truth.

My queston:

Does this belief held by Catholics appeal to you even if you don’t accept that the Catholic Church is true?
Click to expand...
I see a mistake being repeated over and over on this forum.

All trinitarian Christians have the same faith and are members of the One True Church. If their church is following the Gospel then it is teaching the fullness of TRUTH.

What we disagree on is the way we celebrate that One True Faith in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Of course as a fellow Christian your believef is appealing- in these discussions I have to make sure I am not a stumbling block as in:

Romans 14
The Weak and the Strong
1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11It is written:
" ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.’ "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food** is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.**
 
CHESTERTONRULES said:
Does this belief held by Catholics appeal to you even if you don’t accept that the Catholic Church is true?
Click to expand...
IMHO (SINCE YOU ASKED!), Catholics are confusing circumvention of accountability with truth.

The Catholic Church is the only Christian teacher known to me that insists that there’s exclusively one that MUST be exempt from accountability, exempt from norming, and just accepted “with docility” instead. “I’m right so I’m right when I insist that I’m right so ergo I’m right - just accept it with docility and forget about accountability.” My study of the LDS and the cults taught me this is not only a very, very flawed epistemology but dangerous. Very dangerous.

IMHO, true teachers welcome the light and come into the light. They welcome - even insist - upon accountability and norming and examination and questioning. To them, truth matters more than their pride or power. IMHO, it is false teachers who hide in the dark, who just exempt self from accountability, who must demand that all just accept whatever self alone says with docility.

Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church # 87.

That’s my perspective…

Pax
  • Josiah
.
 
schaick said:
I see a mistake being repeated over and over on this forum.

All trinitarian Christians have the same faith and are members of the One True Church. If their church is following the Gospel then it is teaching the fullness of TRUTH.

What we disagree on is the way we celebrate that One True Faith in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

.
Click to expand...
There are some major differences between Catholics and non Catholics, as well as between non Catholics.

These are not minor issues.

For example:
  1. Is baptism necessary for salvation?
  2. Is infant baptism sufficient?
  3. Is our cooperation with God’s grace(ie. works) necessary for salvation?
  4. Do the sacraments confer God’s grace and this facilitate salvation?
Etc.

These and others are central to our faith walk with Jesus and to our ultimate salvation.
 
AmericanJosiah said:
IMHO (SINCE YOU ASKED!), Catholics are confusing circumvention of accountability with truth.

The Catholic Church is the only Christian teacher known to me that insists that there’s exclusively one that MUST be exempt from accountability, exempt from norming, and just accepted “with docility” instead.

.
Click to expand...
That’s my point.

Jesus said that he would be with the leaders of the Church until the end of time, that the gates of hell would not prevail against them, and that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth.

Only one Church makes the claim that this is still true.
 
CHESTERTONRULES said:
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Josiah:
IMHO (SINCE YOU ASKED!), Catholics are confusing circumvention of accountability with truth.

The Catholic Church is the only Christian teacher known to me that insists that there’s exclusively one that MUST be exempt from accountability, exempt from norming, and just accepted “with docility” instead. “I’m right so I’m right when I insist that I’m right so ergo I’m right - just accept it with docility and forget about accountability.” My study of the LDS and the cults taught me this is not only a very, very flawed epistemology but dangerous
Click to expand...
. Very dangerous.

IMHO, true teachers welcome the light and come into the light. They welcome - even insist - upon accountability and norming and examination and questioning. To them, truth matters more than their pride or power. IMHO, it is false teachers who hide in the dark, who just exempt self from accountability, who must demand that all just accept whatever self alone says with docility.

Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church # 87.

That’s my perspective…

Pax
  • Josiah
.

That’s my point.

Jesus said that he would be with the leaders of the Church until the end of time, that the gates of hell would not prevail against them, and that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth.

Only one Church makes the claim that this is still true.
Click to expand...
  1. Again, you are confusing self excluding self from accountibility with self being correct.
  2. Jesus never promised The Catholic Church anything. About anything. Concerning anything. He never so much as even MENTIONED it. Even in passing, About anything whatsoever.
  3. The Holy Spirit does lead. And does so infallibly. But there’s NOTHING to suggest that He ONLY leads The Catholic Church (in fact, there’s NOTHING to suggest that God leads ANY institutional, organizational entities - only that He leads PEOPLE). And you are making an entirely irrational premise: that if God infallibly leads, ERGO we MUST infallibly follow and God thereby holds such as unaccountable. Did God lead Adam and Eve? Infallibly/inerrantly? Of course (God cannot lead errantly). ERGO, THEREFORE, was it necessitated thereby that Adam and Eve INFALLIBLY followed? Nope, they did not! Did God hold them as unaccountable? Nope. You have a false premise, actually two of them: 1) God only leads The Catholic Church. 2) Since God infallibly leads, we have no other possibility but to infallibly follow - thus such is infallible/unaccountable. Both are entirely unfounded: biblically and logically.
IMHO, you are confusing pride with infallibility, self alone exempting self alone from norming with self alone being correct.

.
 
AmericanJosiah said:
IMHO, you are confusing pride with infallibility, self alone exempting self alone from norming with self alone being correct.

.
Click to expand...
IMHO, you are conceding that the gates of hell have prevailed against the Church, that the Holy Spirit leads to confusion, and that Jesus abandoned his Church.
 
CHESTERTONRULES said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHESTERTONRULES View Post
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Josiah:
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CHESTERTONRULES:
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Josiah:
IMHO (SINCE YOU ASKED!), Catholics are confusing circumvention of accountability with truth.

The Catholic Church is the only Christian teacher known to me that insists that there’s exclusively one that MUST be exempt from accountability, exempt from norming, and just accepted “with docility” instead. “I’m right so I’m right when I insist that I’m right so ergo I’m right - just accept it with docility and forget about accountability.” My study of the LDS and the cults taught me this is not only a very, very flawed epistemology but dangerous. Very dangerous.

IMHO, true teachers welcome the light and come into the light. They welcome - even insist - upon accountability and norming and examination and questioning. To them, truth matters more than their pride or power. IMHO, it is false teachers who hide in the dark, who just exempt self from accountability, who must demand that all just accept whatever self alone says with docility.

Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church # 87.

That’s my perspective…

Pax
  • Josiah
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
.
That’s my point.

Jesus said that he would be with the leaders of the Church until the end of time, that the gates of hell would not prevail against them, and that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth.Only one Church makes the claim that this is still true.
  1. Again, you are confusing self excluding self from accountibility with self being correct.
  2. Jesus never promised The Catholic Church anything. About anything. Concerning anything. He never so much as even MENTIONED it. Even in passing, About anything whatsoever.
  3. The Holy Spirit does lead. And does so infallibly. But there’s NOTHING to suggest that He ONLY leads The Catholic Church (in fact, there’s NOTHING to suggest that God leads ANY institutional, organizational entities - only that He leads PEOPLE). And you are making an entirely irrational premise: that if God infallibly leads, ERGO we MUST infallibly follow and God thereby holds such as unaccountable. Did God lead Adam and Eve? Infallibly/inerrantly? Of course (God cannot lead errantly). ERGO, THEREFORE, was it necessitated thereby that Adam and Eve INFALLIBLY followed? Nope, they did not! Did God hold them as unaccountable? Nope. You have a false premise, actually two of them: 1) God only leads The Catholic Church. 2) Since God infallibly leads, we have no other possibility but to infallibly follow - thus such is infallible/unaccountable. Both are entirely unfounded: biblically and logically.
IMHO, you are confusing pride with infallibility, self alone exempting self alone from norming with self alone being correct.

.

IMHO, you are conceding that the gates of hell have prevailed against the Church, that the Holy Spirit leads to confusion, and that Jesus abandoned his Church.
Click to expand...
  1. No, hell has not yet stopped Christianity.
  2. No, the Spirit does not fallibly and errantly lead. What I disagree with you concerning is that one may claim that one infallibly FOLLOWS - if that one is self exclusively. As I’ve noted: The Holy Spirit does lead. And does so infallibly. But there’s NOTHING to suggest that He ONLY leads The Catholic Church (in fact, there’s NOTHING to suggest that God leads ANY institutional, organizational entities - only that He leads PEOPLE). And you are making an entirely irrational premise: that if God infallibly leads, ERGO we MUST infallibly follow and God thereby holds such as unaccountable. Did God lead Adam and Eve? Infallibly/inerrantly? Of course (God cannot lead errantly). ERGO, THEREFORE, was it necessitated thereby that Adam and Eve INFALLIBLY followed? Nope, they did not! Did God hold them as unaccountable? Nope. You have a false premise, actually two of them: 1) God only leads The Catholic Church. 2) Since God infallibly leads, we have no other possibility but to infallibly follow - thus such is infallible/unaccountable. Both are entirely unfounded: biblically and logically.
  3. No, I’ve never remotely stated (nor do I believe) that Jesus has abandon His people. But, of course, He never promised The Catholic Church anything. He has no promises to it to “abandon.”
  4. Again, you seem to be confusing pride with truth, self evading examination with self being correct, you are confusing pride with infalliblity. Any can say, “I’m right so I’m right when I say I’m right - so ergo, I’m right - just accept it with docility.” It has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with self being correct, only that self desires to evade the question. IMHO, true teachers welcome the light and come into the light. They welcome - even insist - upon accountability and norming and examination and questioning. To them, truth matters more than their pride or power. IMHO, it is false teachers who hide in the dark, who just exempt self from accountability, who must demand that all just accept whatever self alone says with docility.
.
 
CHESTERTONRULES said:
Most faithful protestants don’t accept all the views held by all protestant faiths of course, but what’s more, they don’t necessarily agree with everything their own Church professes.

Faithful Catholics, on the other hand, believe that their Church was founded by Christ and that it teaches in the fullness of Truth.

My queston:

Does this belief held by Catholics appeal to you even if you don’t accept that the Catholic Church is true?
Click to expand...
No it doesn’t. I do not want to be “told” what I must believe…I want to be given the tools to find Truth for myself. I do not wish to “rest on the laurels” of those who have gone before me…but base my beliefs in my own experience with the Eternal…I do not wish to give that God-given responsibility up to any organization. If I am wrong…I want to be wrong on my own…I have no wish to state to anyone…“Well, I believed what I was told by the church.”

I find Truth in Friend Eliese Boulding’s words concerning Quakerism…" It is an experience of discovery which starts the Discoverer on a Journey which is life long. What is unique to the Society of Friends is it’s insistence that the Discovery must be made by each person for himself. No one is allowed to get it second-hand by accepting a ready-made creed. Futhermore, the Discovery points a path and demands a Journey, and gives one the Power to make the Journey."

I have no desire to give up what I have learned through my own experience with God…I think it the gravest error on my part to not follow my own counsel on matters of religious belief. I do not discount others experience nor do I discount their counsel…but if I am to be judged against Truth…I wish it to be My Truth…I wish no excuses on my part. I give myself wholly to God’s Judgement and His Mercy.
 
As a protestant, I do believe that I worship in the Church that Jesus founded. That Church is the body of believers in Christ. Christ is the head and the body is the believers. Now, I do understand that my statement is nonsense to a Roman Catholic.

But, while you might not agree with our belief, at least try to understand that we do consider ourselves an important part of the Church that Jesus established.

Do you really believe that the good news of Christ can only work within the construct of the Roman Catholic Church and is only available to those within that construct?

Just my thoughts,
Jeff
 
CHESTERTONRULES said:
Most faithful protestants don’t accept all the views held by all protestant faiths of course, but what’s more, they don’t necessarily agree with everything their own Church professes.

Faithful Catholics, on the other hand, believe that their Church was founded by Christ and that it teaches in the fullness of Truth.

My queston:

Does this belief held by Catholics appeal to you even if you don’t accept that the Catholic Church is true?
Click to expand...
I like the question. The idea that the church is founded by Christ is beyond dispute. The question is how do you define the Church. I believe that no part of it is the exclusive “true church”.

two things attract me to the RCC:
  1. The magisterium
  2. The papacy
two things repel me from the RCC:
  1. The magisterium
  2. Papal infallibility.
I’m open to new ideas, Lord knows I am.
 
AlaricTeudisson said:
As a protestant, I do believe that I worship in the Church that Jesus founded. That Church is the body of believers in Christ. Christ is the head and the body is the believers. Now, I do understand that my statement is nonsense to a Roman Catholic.

But, while you might not agree with our belief, at least try to understand that we do consider ourselves an important part of the Church that Jesus established.

Do you really believe that the good news of Christ can only work within the construct of the Roman Catholic Church and is only available to those within that construct?

Just my thoughts,
Jeff
Click to expand...
Anglicans, especially anglo-Catholics, are in a unique position. They maintain a belief in apostolic succession and they understand themselves to be part of the Church.

This is not common among protestants, however.

I believe that the fullness of Truth has been protected and preserved in the Church.

Why would I settle for less?
 
Usbek_de_Perse said:
I like the question. The idea that the church is founded by Christ is beyond dispute. The question is how do you define the Church. I believe that no part of it is the exclusive “true church”. ]two things attract me to the RCC:
  1. The magisterium
  2. The papacy
two things repel me from the RCC:
  1. The magisterium
  2. Papal infallibility.
I’m open to new ideas, Lord knows I am.
Click to expand...
I agree with you that the key question is defining the Church.

I think there are many clear indications in the bible and the early fathers that the Church was unified in doctrine and hierarchical from the beginning.

This limits our choices in defining the Church.
 
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CHESTERTONRULES:
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Josiah:
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CHESTERTONRULES:
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Josiah:
IMHO (SINCE YOU ASKED!), Catholics are confusing circumvention of accountability with truth.

The Catholic Church is the only Christian teacher known to me that insists that there’s exclusively one that MUST be exempt from accountability, exempt from norming, and just accepted “with docility” instead. “I’m right so I’m right when I insist that I’m right so ergo I’m right - just accept it with docility and forget about accountability.” My study of the LDS and the cults taught me this is not only a very, very flawed epistemology but dangerous. Very dangerous.

IMHO, true teachers welcome the light and come into the light. They welcome - even insist - upon accountability and norming and examination and questioning. To them, truth matters more than their pride or power. IMHO, it is false teachers who hide in the dark, who just exempt self from accountability, who must demand that all just accept whatever self alone says with docility.

Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church # 87.

That’s my perspective…

Pax
  • Josiah
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
.

That’s my point.

Jesus said that he would be with the leaders of the Church until the end of time, that the gates of hell would not prevail against them, and that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth.Only one Church makes the claim that this is still true.
  1. Again, you are confusing self excluding self from accountibility with self being correct.
  2. Jesus never promised The Catholic Church anything. About anything. Concerning anything. He never so much as even MENTIONED it. Even in passing, About anything whatsoever.
  3. The Holy Spirit does lead. And does so infallibly. But there’s NOTHING to suggest that He ONLY leads The Catholic Church (in fact, there’s NOTHING to suggest that God leads ANY institutional, organizational entities - only that He leads PEOPLE). And you are making an entirely irrational premise: that if God infallibly leads, ERGO we MUST infallibly follow and God thereby holds such as unaccountable. Did God lead Adam and Eve? Infallibly/inerrantly? Of course (God cannot lead errantly). ERGO, THEREFORE, was it necessitated thereby that Adam and Eve INFALLIBLY followed? Nope, they did not! Did God hold them as unaccountable? Nope. You have a false premise, actually two of them: 1) God only leads The Catholic Church. 2) Since God infallibly leads, we have no other possibility but to infallibly follow - thus such is infallible/unaccountable. Both are entirely unfounded: biblically and logically.
IMHO, you are confusing pride with infallibility, self alone exempting self alone from norming with self alone being correct.

.

IMHO, you are conceding that the gates of hell have prevailed against the Church, that the Holy Spirit leads to confusion, and that Jesus abandoned his Church.
Click to expand...
  1. No, hell has not yet stopped Christianity.
  2. No, the Spirit does not fallibly and errantly lead. What I disagree with you concerning is that one may claim that one infallibly FOLLOWS - if that one is self exclusively. As I’ve noted: The Holy Spirit does lead. And does so infallibly. But there’s NOTHING to suggest that He ONLY leads The Catholic Church (in fact, there’s NOTHING to suggest that God leads ANY institutional, organizational entities - only that He leads PEOPLE). And you are making an entirely irrational premise: that if God infallibly leads, ERGO we MUST infallibly follow and God thereby holds such as unaccountable. Did God lead Adam and Eve? Infallibly/inerrantly? Of course (God cannot lead errantly). ERGO, THEREFORE, was it necessitated thereby that Adam and Eve INFALLIBLY followed? Nope, they did not! Did God hold them as unaccountable? Nope. You have a false premise, actually two of them: 1) God only leads The Catholic Church. 2) Since God infallibly leads, we have no other possibility but to infallibly follow - thus such is infallible/unaccountable. Both are entirely unfounded: biblically and logically.
  3. No, I’ve never remotely stated (nor do I believe) that Jesus has abandon His people. But, of course, He never promised The Catholic Church anything. He has no promises to it to “abandon.”
  4. Again, you seem to be confusing pride with truth, self evading examination with self being correct, you are confusing pride with infalliblity. Any can say, “I’m right so I’m right when I say I’m right - so ergo, I’m right - just accept it with docility.” It has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with self being correct, only that self desires to evade the question. IMHO, true teachers welcome the light and come into the light. They welcome - even insist - upon accountability and norming and examination and questioning. To them, truth matters more than their pride or power. IMHO, it is false teachers who hide in the dark, who just exempt self from accountability, who must demand that all just accept whatever self alone says with docility.
.
 
AlaricTeudisson said:
As a protestant, I do believe that I worship in the Church that Jesus founded. That Church is the body of believers in Christ. Christ is the head and the body is the believers. Now, I do understand that my statement is nonsense to a Roman Catholic.

But, while you might not agree with our belief, at least try to understand that we do consider ourselves an important part of the Church that Jesus established.

Do you really believe that the good news of Christ can only work within the construct of the Roman Catholic Church and is only available to those within that construct?

Just my thoughts,
Jeff
Click to expand...
Jeff,

As a Lutheran, I agree with you. I believe that I, too, am connected with the Church that Jesus established. There is only one holy, catholic, and apostolic church and all who confess the Triune God are connected to it. At the same time, I pray that our connections will become tighter and that the division we experience will be overcome.
 
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