Question for Orthodox re: the upcoming Holy & Great Council

[wynd]

I have enough hats for us all to eat. If it happens, we’ll wait till Pascha, make a nice cheese sauce, and feast on chapeaus.

I’ve got a fedora, several newsboys, an an Indiana Jones replica that would go great with a nice alfredo. There’s one baseball cap if anyone prefers a beer and cheddar fondue.

Male pattern baldness runs in my family.

Let’s hope you never have to be tonsured!

 

[Rawb]

Let’s hope you never have to be tonsured!

Been tonsured

 

[andrewstx]

All Orthodox are tonsured at their baptism, but few remember it. I remember because I was baptized as an adult.

 

[Taurks]

I hope they change the fasting rules for great Lent. THE way it stands now is that you can eat shellfish at any time.
But lobster crab and shrimp are expensive and I think not in keeping with the penentential spirit of fasting at all.

Red Lobsterand Joe’s Crab Shack just don’t strike me as penitential at all.

I heard from a nun who advised me, “The saints say not to be picky about food. The point of Lent is to concentrate more on our sins,” and not checking the label for “may contain milk product”
I think in Greece, where there are islands and fish are more of a main staple, eating fish is alright. To give it up would be too big. But in Russia, where fish is not an everyday thing but often more a delicacy (think lobster and shrimp), it is appropriate to fast from seafood. It all depends on your situation, which is why we ask the priest

 

[Taurks]

Also 1Tim to answer your question: if such a thing happened, that would truly be a tragedy, because that means we’ve abandoned the faith of the saints and Church Fathers en masse. St. John Popovich (who was alive in the 70s when this current council was first being proposed) says we shouldn’t even be having this council, because it is incongruent to the tradition of the Church:

Historical reality is perfectly clear: the holy Councils of the Holy Fathers, summoned by God, always, always had before them one, or at the most two or three questions set before them by the extreme gravity of great heresies and schisms that distorted the Orthodox Faith, tore asunder the Church and seriously placed in danger the salvation of human souls, the salvation of the Orthodox people of God, and of the entire creation of God. Therefore, the ecumenical councils always had a Christological, soteriological, ecclesiological character, which means that their sole and central topic - their Good News - was always the God-Man Jesus Christ and our salvation in Him, our deification in Him. Yes, He - the Son of God, only-begotten and consubstantial, incarnate; He - the eternal Head of the Body of the Church for the salvation and deification of man; He - wholly in the Church by the grace of the Holy Spirit, by true faith in Him, by the Orthodox Faith.

This is the truly Orthodox, apostolic and patristic theme, the immortal theme of the Church of the God-Man, for all times, past, present and future. This alone can be the subject of any future possible ecumenical council of the Orthodox Church, and not some scholastic-protestant catalogue of topics having no essential relation to the spiritual life and experience of apostolic Orthodoxy down the ages, since it is nothing more than a series of anemic, humanistic theorems. The eternal catholicity of the Orthodox Church and of all her ecumenical councils consists in the all-embracing Person of the God-Man, the Lord Christ. This is the central and universal reality, the theme of Orthodox Councils, this is the unique mystery and reality of the God-Man, upon which the Orthodox Church of Christ is built and sustained with all ecumenical councils and all her historical reality. Upon this foundation we are to build, even today, in the sight of heaven and earth, and not upon the scholastic-protestant and humanistic topics employed by the ecclesiastical delegates or delegations of Constantinople or Moscow, who at this bitter and critical moment of history present themselves as the “leaders and representatives” of the Orthodox Church in the world.

Source: orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/stjustin_council.aspx

If it happened (Lord have mercy) I would probably join the Oriental Orthodox, since they apparently have the same faith as us but express it slightly differently.

 

[Protector]

Cavaradossi;11775537]Just to clarify, autonomy actually means self-governing (auto - self, nomos - law), and it encompasses various arrangements in which the autonomous church is granted a certain degree of independence in its own governance. .

(emphasis mine - (Protector)

Autocephaly (literally, being self-headed) when spoken of a church refers to the right of such a church to elect and consecrate its own primate without receiving any outside approval, which also should have as a consequence that such a church is completely autonomous

Is this not how it was in Apostolic times?

Protector.

 

[Peter_J]

Also 1Tim to answer your question: if such a thing happened, that would truly be a tragedy,

I would say there’s no question, it’s not going to happen. Even Rome understands that, and respects the desire of the Orthodox to remain Orthodox (just as the Orthodox respect our desire to remain Catholic).

 

[Cavaradossi]

Is this not how it was in Apostolic times?

The understanding of the late medieval canonists seems to have been that regional autocephaly was at least the norm by the time of Nicaea, though canon 6 of Nicaea hints that this practice is derived from custom, such that it probably is an organizational system which predates the council. The famous canonist Theodore Balsamon, for example, in interpreting the controversial (at the time it was passed anyway) canon 28 of Chalcedon, remarked that originally, all metropolises were autocephalous (possessing the right to consecrate their head bishop), but that they eventually lost their autocephaly as they were consolidated into patriarchates (a process explicitly made de jure in canon 28).

 

[Taurks]

I would say there’s no question, it’s not going to happen. Even Rome understands that, and respects the desire of the Orthodox to remain Orthodox (just as the Orthodox respect our desire to remain Catholic).

I agree - I’d be less surprised if the Patriarchs sprouted wings after the council

 

[Protector]

Cavaradossi;11780916] Autocephaly (literally, being self-headed) when spoken of a church refers to the right of such a church to elect and consecrate its own primate without receiving any outside approval, which also should have as a consequence that such a church is completely autonomous

Is this not how it was in Apostolic times?

Cavaradossi;11780916] The understanding of the late medieval canonists seems to have been that regional autocephaly was at least the norm by the time of Nicaea, though canon 6 of Nicaea hints that this practice is derived from custom, such that it probably is an organizational system which predates the council. The famous canonist Theodore Balsamon, for example, in interpreting the controversial (at the time it was passed anyway) canon 28 of Chalcedon, remarked that originally, all metropolises were autocephalous (possessing the right to consecrate their head bishop), but that they eventually lost their autocephaly as they were consolidated into patriarchates (a process explicitly made de jure in canon 28).

Thank you very much for that concise canonical history lesson Cavaradossi - it is no little wonder that some of the Councils went on for years:-

dailycatholic.org/history/councils.htm

Protector.

 

[elizaveta01]

The chances that this council will resolve anything between east and west is slim to none. The Orthodox can’t even get over their internal differences, much less the differences with the Catholics.

As it stands right now, not all the Patriarchs are going to be there. The Patriarch of Antioch announced that he is not going because of an ongoing dispute with the Patriarch of Jerusalem because the Patriarch of Jerusalem opened a diocese inside of the bounderies of the Antiochian jurisdiction. And the Russians are also balking at attending.

So even if the people that do attend want to end the schism, they won’t be able to. Since for a council to be binding all the jurisdictions have to be there.

 

[Nine_Two]

The chances that this council will resolve anything between east and west is slim to none. The Orthodox can’t even get over their internal differences, much less the differences with the Catholics.

As it stands right now, not all the Patriarchs are going to be there. The Patriarch of Antioch announced that he is not going because of an ongoing dispute with the Patriarch of Jerusalem because the Patriarch of Jerusalem opened a diocese inside of the bounderies of the Antiochian jurisdiction. And the Russians are also balking at attending.

So even if the people that do attend want to end the schism, they won’t be able to. Since for a council to be binding all the jurisdictions have to be there.

It seems a bit strange that you identify yourself as Orthodox and then speak of “the Orthodox” in the third person.

Anyway, the chances this will resolve anything between east and west is actually none, because it hasn’t been called to deal with any of those issues. It has been called to deal with those internal differences you say we can’t get past.

The meeting itself has already been held and is over, though I’ve not yet heard of any of its fruits, I’ve not particularly looked.

 

[Cavaradossi]

As it stands right now, not all the Patriarchs are going to be there. The Patriarch of Antioch announced that he is not going because of an ongoing dispute with the Patriarch of Jerusalem because the Patriarch of Jerusalem opened a diocese inside of the bounderies of the Antiochian jurisdiction.

The Antiochians withdrew from the Synaxis, threatening not to sign its statement until the issue with Jerusalem was resolved. Nothing has been said, to my knowledge, about attending or not attending the council scheduled for 2016. The Chancellor of the Metropolis of Pittsburgh indicated that the issue was scheduled to be resolved in meetings after the conclusion of the Synaxis.

And the Russians are also balking at attending.

Contrary to your claims, the Russian Patriarch, Kirill of Moscow signed the concluding message of the Synaxis, which specifies:

“The Synaxis agreed that the preparatory work to the Synod should be intensified. A special Inter-Orthodox Committee will work from September 2014 until Holy Easter of 2015, followed by a Pre-Synodal Pan-Orthodox Conference to be convened in the first half of 2015. All decisions at the Synod and in the preparatory stages are made by consensus. The Holy and Great Synod of the Orthodox Church will be convened by the Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople in 2016, unless something unexpected occurs. The Synod will be presided by the Ecumenical Patriarch. His brother Primates of the other Orthodox Autocephalous Churches will be seated at his right and at his left.”

(source)

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

It seems a bit strange that you identify yourself as Orthodox and then speak of “the Orthodox” in the third person.

Anyway, the chances this will resolve anything between east and west is actually none, because it hasn’t been called to deal with any of those issues. It has been called to deal with those internal differences you say we can’t get past.

The meeting itself has already been held and is over, though I’ve not yet heard of any of its fruits, I’ve not particularly looked.

One of the fruits is that they demanded the release of the Nuns in Syria and they were released.

 

[shawnbm]

Any effort for the Orthodox to attempt to come together to hash out differences and reach common ground–on those matters that can be a matter of compromise–seems to me to be a positive step. When all of them are together, the likelihood of some kind gesture of appreciation and perhaps even invitation to the Catholic Churches increases, even if only in the hearts and minds of hundreds of millions around the world.

 

[dzheremi]

I am confused by some of the statements made in this thread. I have to wonder (not in a mean-spirited way, so I hope this isn’t read like that; I just can’t think of any other way to phrase it) why some Roman Catholics seem to think that this council will or should have anything to do with them or their church? These are EO-internal matters, and the RCC is not a part of Eastern Orthodoxy.

 

[Peter_J]

When all of them are together, the likelihood of some kind gesture of appreciation and perhaps even invitation to the Catholic Churches increases,

Having spent a lot of time around Orthodox, let me assure you that there’s no shortage of invitation. (Of course, I always try to be very polite when I tell them “Thanks, but I’m going to stay in the Roman Communion.” )

 

[elizaveta01]

It seems a bit strange that you identify yourself as Orthodox and then speak of “the Orthodox” in the third person.

I am Orthodox. When I said “the Orthodox” I was referring to the “the various jurisdictions within the Orthodox Church”. I was not speaking about myself.

Anyway, the chances this will resolve anything between east and west is actually none, because it hasn’t been called to deal with any of those issues. It has been called to deal with those internal differences you say we can’t get past.

From what I’ve read they are going to discuss much more than internal differences. Things like rampant consumerism, cloning, the ongoing destruction of the Church in Islamic countries, etc.

And I never said we couldn’t get past our internal issues. I’m just not expecting it to occur at the upcoming council.

The meeting itself has already been held and is over, though I’ve not yet heard of any of its fruits, I’ve not particularly looked.

The meeting I was referring to hasn’t happened yet. I’m not sure of the exact date but I believe it is sometime in 2016.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I think its fantastic, as the Kingdom of God is realized through communion, and for sure we know this is the final outcome as for those of us who truly believe. It can only be a beautiful thing for further consensus to be reached in understanding at the Council. And truly that can imho only help further understanding and of course dialogue

Peace

 

[shawnbm]

i think its fantastic, as the kingdom of god is realized through communion, and for sure we know this is the final outcome as for those of us who truly believe. It can only be a beautiful thing for further consensus to be reached in understanding at the council. And truly that can imho only help further understanding and of course dialogue

peace

yes yes yes