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Isaiah45_9
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In which case the question was not directed at you and in return you need not provide an answer and allow those who do belong to a Church to have the freedom to answer the question.
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ltwin
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Interesting perspective. The “separation” is not in terms of space. David did say:
Where shall I go from your Spirit?
Or where shall I flee from your presence?
If I ascend to heaven, you are there!
If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
(Psalm 139)
Yet, when David committed adultery with Bathsheba, his prayer of repentance was “Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me” (Psalm 51:11). Obviously, there is a difference in being in communion with God and being surrounded with God who is omnipresent.
2 Corinthians 5:18-21 says:
All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Sin separates, but Christ reconciles.
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Isaiah45_9
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I agree prima facie on this. However, we need to further separate types of sin - mortal and venial. And, further, repentant and unrepentant sin.
David not only showed sings of repentance but he showed signs of deep remorse as well. The Psalms alone are a great witness to his remorse/repentance.
But we cannot say that unrepented/unconfessed sin doesn’t separate us from a relationship with Christ and ultimately can lead to our eternal damnation.
1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light and in him is no darkness[d] at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth; 7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9* If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.** 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.*
It says, if we confess our sins - then he is faithful and forgives/cleanses us.
What do you think happens if we don’t?
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SteveVH
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Wow, one learns something everyday. Is this your opinion or is this Orthodox teaching (especially the bolded part)? Do you not believe there is a difference between venial and mortal sin? I am amazed and a little shocked. Or, I have misunderstood your comments.I’ll avoid quibbling over the definition of ‘Catholic’
Sin is explained by the Greek word ‘hamartia’ which is the word used when an archer misses the target. Missing the mark is pretty close. That means a sin is anything you do, knowingly or unknowingly, that results in you not doing what Christ would have you do in that moment. It is not a transgression of a law in and of itself, it does not accompany a mandatory ‘payment’ or ‘retribution’ which must be paid. It is not a separation from God (how can we be separated from He Who is Everywhere?) and it does not prevent God from having a relationship with us. It’s simply turning away from the path which leads to God, and how far that turn is or whether you know you’re doing it is irrelevant.
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ltwin
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I agree with this. I paraphrased 1 John in my first comment. I understood Rawb to be saying that sin does not separate us from fellowship with God. I believe that unconfessed and unrepented sin certainly does separate us from God and grieves the Holy Spirit.
If we don’t repent of our sins, then Christ’s blood cannot be applied to our lives to wash us of our sins and make us righteous. The wages of sin is death, and those who die who have not repented will experience both physical and spiritual death.
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SteveVH
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Agree 100%. The consequence of sin is death, and death (spiritual death) is separation from God.
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NoWings
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LOL, right. My answering the question somehow impedes the freedom of those who belong to a church to respond to this thread. The topic is addressed to non-Catholics, which I am. I’m sorry you feel the need to troll me for no reason other than to be belligerent.
Move along.
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Rawb
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Orthodox do not believe in the “mortal vs. venial” sin distinction that Romans have.Wow, one learns something everyday. Is this your opinion or is this Orthodox teaching (especially the bolded part)? Do you not believe there is a difference between venial and mortal sin? I am amazed and a little shocked. Or, I have misunderstood your comments.
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PJM
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So my friend, what are you doing here at CAF. What are you looking to accomplish:shrug:
God Bless you,
Patrick
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Rawb
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(I only edited the first quote for space saving purposes)
Yes I know many (most?) don’t believe the separation is physical, but some do, and I wanted to be clear. The idea that hell is the absence of God is not something Orthodox believe (Hell is the presence of God, actually). Sin does not, as is a common Roman belief, in Orthodoxy, sever one’s relationship with Christ. The separation is more emotional/spiritual, in that it fundamentally alters the relationship so that He becomes unloved by us. God doesn’t change - we do. We do not become deserving of punishment because of a sin in the parent/child paradigm (i.e. you did this, so I am going to do this to you) but rather our punishments are self inflicted in our rejection of All That is Good. (I’m talking differently than those griefs which God does send us which bring us closer to Him - they are not given to us because we sin).
The last paragraph of your second quote, if it is meant to convey a Substitutionary Atonement model of Salvation, is rejected by Orthodoxy. Christ on the Cross is not taking the punishment we deserve. For a greater explanation of this difference and sin in general I highly recommend this short video.
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PJM
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Actually Tom, Christ did specify only ONE.Here is but one of many examples:
Eph. 4:1-7
"I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, [2] With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. [3] Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [4] One body and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism.
[6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all. [7] But to every one of us is given grace, according to the measure of the giving of Christ"
God Bless you!
Patrick
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Isaiah45_9
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The question was to Church belonging Non-Catholics. Perhaps you need to read better before answer questions that do not pertain to you and do a little more analysis before forming accusations.
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Isaiah45_9
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Isaiah45_9
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Dear friend in Christ,
We appreciate your participation here on CAF
Would you share with is WHAT DOES YOUR CHURCH TEACH ABOUT SIN?
Thank you,
Patrick
For your benefit.
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Publisher
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This is a good definition that many Friends would embrace. Friends do not believe in “original sin”…we are not “separated” from God…“there is that of God” in each of us…the Light indwells each of us for we bear the image of God. There is no “retribution” that had to be paid. Jesus lived and obeyed the Father completely…even being obedient with death on the cross…to show us the depth of the love of God…Jesus of Nazareth shows us Who God is…and what God is truly like.I’ll avoid quibbling over the definition of ‘Catholic’
Sin is explained by the Greek word ‘hamartia’ which is the word used when an archer misses the target. Missing the mark is pretty close. That means a sin is anything you do, knowingly or unknowingly, that results in you not doing what Christ would have you do in that moment. It is not a transgression of a law in and of itself, it does not accompany a mandatory ‘payment’ or ‘retribution’ which must be paid. It is not a separation from God (how can we be separated from He Who is Everywhere?) and it does not prevent God from having a relationship with us. It’s simply turning away from the path which leads to God, and how far that turn is or whether you know you’re doing it is irrelevant.
“Repentance” is “turning around”…“going the other way”…when we “mind the Light”, we have fellowship with God, when we do not “mind the Light”…we stiffle that “Still Small Voice” which guides us.
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benjohnson
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I enjoyed the video - it don’t quite recognizes the ‘protestant’ portrayal as entrely Lutheran as we don’t view Chris’s death on the Cross as divine child abuse and we don’t fool God and sneak into His house by cloaking our bodies in the blood of the Lamb.
The Luther quote about snow upon dung isn’t something he actually said: thegolemspeaks.com/articles/2010/3/9/martin-luther-and-snow-covered-dung-heap.html
Speaking for myself - as much as we would like to pretend otherwise, I don’t think we can fully understand salvation, but we can certainly trust in it.
But regardless, but even better, I didn’t find much incompatible with the Orthodox viewpoint of salvation with our Lutheran viewpoint. In fact I would say the Orthodox explanation is good Gosepl for those that would hear it.
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Rawb
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…something different? What does mortal sin mean? (That’s rhetorical) I’ve been told it means a sin for which, if one does it, would send one to hell unless it’s confessed before death. Well, that doesn’t work for Orthodoxy because 1) There are no sins that automatically send one to hell like that. God has relationships with us, not a list of rules and checklists. 2) Our belief is that, when you die, you are in the Presence of God. Everyone is. For those who’ve cooperated and loved God, His presence is bliss. For those who hated Him, His presence is hell. His love is light - whether that light is the warm glow of joy or the piercing pain of hatred depends on how you’ve prepared yourself and related to God. Thus, if you committed a “mortal” sin and went to hell, you’d be going to the same place you were before, you’ve just changed your relationship some. Now maybe you did do something that completely changed the relationship and you hate God now. Fine, but that’s very different from “I was in a State of Grace, then missed Mass, don’t think it was really that big a deal and so now I’m going to hell.” I’ve also been told that “mortal sin” severs our relationship with God. That doesn’t work for us either. Nothing can separate us from God like that. It just…it doesn’t make sense. It’s a sin you have to confess? Well, you should confess everything you can remember.
In our mentality, if you’re focusing on “this sin turns me 25 degrees from God, but this one only turns me 10 degrees away from God” you’re missing the point. So no, we don’t believe in a mortal vs. venial sin distinction. It’s unhelpful. We believe there is sin, and there is Mercy, and we ask mercy for everything we do. If you listen to an Orthodox Liturgy we say (if I counted correctly right now) "Lord, have mercy) about sixty times. And that’s not counting the times we say things like “Have mercy upon us” or “save us” or “grant us peace” which mean very similar things, and not counting when the priest might say “Lord, have mercy.”
I’m not interested really in hearing a defense of defining which sins are mortal or anything, I’m just explaining Orthodox beliefs about sin; we don’t ever talk about something being ‘mortal’ or ‘venial.’
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NoWings
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The OP is addressed to non-Catholics in the title. The OP asked what concept of sin your church teaches. If the OP wanted non-Catholic Christians only, I assume he or she would’ve made that distinction clear. Clearly, Muslims and Jews would be allowed in this thread since they have concepts of sin.
Perhaps you need to stop trolling me and move along, for the second time. If my answer somehow bothers you, which it apparently does, perhaps you should stop posting in the non-Catholic religions section.
Edit: As an aside, I’m still waiting to hear your explanation on how my posting here impinges upon the freedom of non-Catholic Christians to post in this thread.
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