Question for our non-Catholic Friends please

[ltwin]

The idea that hell is the absence of God is not something Orthodox believe (Hell is the presence of God, actually).

Yes, I actually find the way Eastern Orthodox understand hell as a useful way to think about hell in relation to God’s love.

Sin does not, as is a common Roman belief, in Orthodoxy, sever one’s relationship with Christ. The separation is more emotional/spiritual, in that it fundamentally alters the relationship so that He becomes unloved by us. God doesn’t change - we do. We do not become deserving of punishment because of a sin in the parent/child paradigm (i.e. you did this, so I am going to do this to you) but rather our punishments are self inflicted in our rejection of All That is Good. (I’m talking differently than those griefs which God does send us which bring us closer to Him - they are not given to us because we sin).

I agree that God does not change, we do. However, I think we have to emphasize both God’s love and his justice. Sin is not just some internal rot within us that makes God repugnant to us, but sin is an affront to God’s honor and his justice and it can never be ignored.

The last paragraph of your second quote, if it is meant to convey a Substitutionary Atonement model of Salvation, is rejected by Orthodoxy. Christ on the Cross is not taking the punishment we deserve. For a greater explanation of this difference and sin in general I highly recommend this short video.

I do believe in substitutionary atonement more or less, but I also see how the Orthodox view is also true. I don’t think they are mutually exclusive.

Of course, I don’t think the man in the video was being entirely fair to the Protestant view either.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

…something different? What does mortal sin mean? (That’s rhetorical) I’ve been told it means a sin for which, if one does it, would send one to hell unless it’s confessed before death. Well, that doesn’t work for Orthodoxy because 1) There are no sins that automatically send one to hell like that. God has relationships with us, not a list of rules and checklists. 2) Our belief is that, when you die, you are in the Presence of God. Everyone is. For those who’ve cooperated and loved God, His presence is bliss. For those who hated Him, His presence is hell. His love is light - whether that light is the warm glow of joy or the piercing pain of hatred depends on how you’ve prepared yourself and related to God. Thus, if you committed a “mortal” sin and went to hell, you’d be going to the same place you were before, you’ve just changed your relationship some. Now maybe you did do something that completely changed the relationship and you hate God now. Fine, but that’s very different from “I was in a State of Grace, then missed Mass, don’t think it was really that big a deal and so now I’m going to hell.” I’ve also been told that “mortal sin” severs our relationship with God. That doesn’t work for us either. Nothing can separate us from God like that. It just…it doesn’t make sense. It’s a sin you have to confess? Well, you should confess everything you can remember.

In our mentality, if you’re focusing on “this sin turns me 25 degrees from God, but this one only turns me 10 degrees away from God” you’re missing the point. So no, we don’t believe in a mortal vs. venial sin distinction. It’s unhelpful. We believe there is sin, and there is Mercy, and we ask mercy for everything we do. If you listen to an Orthodox Liturgy we say (if I counted correctly right now) "Lord, have mercy) about sixty times. And that’s not counting the times we say things like “Have mercy upon us” or “save us” or “grant us peace” which mean very similar things, and not counting when the priest might say “Lord, have mercy.”

I’m not interested really in hearing a defense of defining which sins are mortal or anything, I’m just explaining Orthodox beliefs about sin; we don’t ever talk about something being ‘mortal’ or ‘venial.’

I would not say a defense, but there are distinctions that are bluntly staring at us.

I’m also not presenting a list but those distinctions made by Christ and His Apostles.

Otherwise, St. John the Apostle would not have made a distinction on sin. Or, Christ would not have needed to make a distinction of the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit as being unforgivable - in this age or in the age to come.

The problem is that you say you don’t want to hear a defense and then go forth and present your position as: Not as that of Romans, missing Mass, and an overall pointing the finger tone.

You don’t give me a choice but to make a defense to those things you are claiming/suggesting.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I enjoy religious debate and I think it’s rather **amusing **watching different sects and traditions of Christianity argue about how many angels fit on the head of a pin, when ultimately people are arguing over assumptions that aren’t provable.

And you called me a troll…

 

[Rawb]

The problem is that you say you don’t want to hear a defense and then go forth and present your position as: Not as that of Romans, missing Mass, and an overall pointing the finger tone.

The reason why I don’t want to hear a defense (which sounds more antagonistic than I mean it to, really, it’s just the phrasing that came to mind) is because I don’t think it’s on topic. This thread asks what other churches teach about sin. I gave the Orthodox position, and then someone asked if we believe in mortal vs. venial sin. I said no, and explained why using Orthodox theology, comparing it, if I thought it would help to clarify, to Roman theology.

I do not present my position as “not as that of the Romans” but “as that of the Orthodox.” I’m not trying to defend the Orthodox position against that of the Romans, but to present the Orthodox position to some Romans. I thought about just saying “No, we don’t” and leaving it at that.

 

[Rawb]

Sin is not just some internal rot within us that makes God repugnant to us, but sin is an affront to God’s honor and his justice and it can never be ignored.

We do not believe this either - that sin is an affront to God’s honor.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by Rawb View Post
Orthodox do not believe in the “mortal vs. venial” sin distinction that Romans have.

Sandwiched in between is MY Comment

And this is because?

**1 Jn 1:8-10 **" If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us".

1 Jn. 5:16-17 "He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death.** There is a sin unto death**: for that I say not that any man ask. All iniquity is sin. **And there is a sin unto death.
**

=Isaiah45_9;11646077]So:

No sin is mortal.

or

All sin is mortal.

or

Something different all together?

God Bless you both:thumbsup:

 

[PJM]

=Rawb;11646183]…something different? What does mortal sin mean? (That’s rhetorical) I’ve been told it means a sin for which, if one does it, would send one to hell unless it’s confessed before death. Well, that doesn’t work for Orthodoxy because 1) There are no sins that automatically send one to hell like that. God has relationships with us, not a list of rules and checklists. 2) Our belief is that, when you die, you are in the Presence of God. Everyone is. For those who’ve cooperated and loved God, His presence is bliss. For those who hated Him, His presence is hell. His love is light - whether that light is the warm glow of joy or the piercing pain of hatred depends on how you’ve prepared yourself and related to God. Thus, if you committed a “mortal” sin and went to hell, you’d be going to the same place you were before, you’ve just changed your relationship some. Now maybe you did do something that completely changed the relationship and you hate God now. Fine, but that’s very different from “I was in a State of Grace, then missed Mass, don’t think it was really that big a deal and so now I’m going to hell.” I’ve also been told that “mortal sin” severs our relationship with God. That doesn’t work for us either. Nothing can separate us from God like that. It just…it doesn’t make sense. It’s a sin you have to confess? Well, you should confess everything you can remember.

In our mentality, if you’re focusing on “this sin turns me 25 degrees from God, but this one only turns me 10 degrees away from God” you’re missing the point. So no, we don’t believe in a mortal vs. venial sin distinction. It’s unhelpful. We believe there is sin, and there is Mercy, and we ask mercy for everything we do. If you listen to an Orthodox Liturgy we say (if I counted correctly right now) "Lord, have mercy) about sixty times. And that’s not counting the times we say things like “Have mercy upon us” or “save us” or “grant us peace” which mean very similar things, and not counting when the priest might say “Lord, have mercy.”

I’m not interested really in hearing a defense of defining which sins are mortal or anything, I’m just explaining Orthodox beliefs about sin; we don’t ever talk about something being ‘mortal’ or ‘venial.’

"GOD does not have rules"

So my friend what are the ten Commandments? Please READ Mt 19:17

And then their are the Beatitudes and required CHARITY.

That dear friend is WHY One True God HAS only One true Faith and One true church
Eph. 4:1-7 says it very precisely and clearly.

Continued Blessings,
Patrick

 

[Rawb]

PJM, I know what is written in our scriptures. That they have words in them doesn’t mean they mean what you think they say.

I’m not going to engage in a defense of your doctrines with you. You believe in mortal vs. venial sin. Ok. The Orthodox Church does not.

 

[Servant19]

Sin is RELATIVE, not ABSOLUTE.

What God says goes.

You are in sin if you chose to reject or disobey…

.

 

[meltzerboy]

Dear friend in Christ,

We appreciate your participation here on CAF

Would you share with is WHAT DOES YOUR CHURCH TEACH ABOUT SIN?

Thank you,
Patrick

In Judaism, sin is a personal matter in the sense that we atone for our sins by means of prayer and reparations toward the injured party. G-d does not expect perfection from us but rewards us for making the effort to improve, even in small increments, as reflected by the changes in our lives. In a way, sinning can bring us closer to G-d than we had been before having sinned.

 

[PJM]

PJM, I know what is written in our scriptures. That they have words in them doesn’t mean they mean what you think they say.

I’m not going to engage in a defense of your doctrines with you. You believe in mortal vs. venial sin. Ok. The Orthodox Church does not.

I’ll pray for you!

Matthew 4:4
Who answered and said: It is written, Not in bread alone doth man live, but in every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God.

Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him: It is written, that Man liveth not by bread alone, but by every word of God.

John 12:48
He that despiseth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him; the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

God Bless you brother,

Patrick

 

[Lokadottir]

I enjoy religious debate and I think it’s rather amusing watching different sects and traditions of Christianity argue about how many angels fit on the head of a pin, when ultimately people are arguing over assumptions that aren’t provable.

High five!

 

[PJM]

=Lokadottir;11648860]High five!

Death faces all us with GODS necessarily JUST and FAIR Judgment… I assure you God will not find it so funny.

May our Blessed Lord grant you sufficient grace to KNOW HIM!

Patrick

 

[PJM]

=meltzerboy;11647284]In Judaism, sin is a personal matter in the sense that we atone for our sins by means of prayer and reparations toward the injured party. G-d does not expect perfection from us but rewards us for making the effort to improve, even in small increments, as reflected by the changes in our lives. In a way, sinning can bring us closer to G-d than we had been before having sinned.

Hi

Its been quite awhile since we have shared our beliefs,

I am well aware of your customs and traditions regarding sin. But because your still seeking the Messiah you all miss the New Covenant and it’s new, and perfected Laws.

God the Messiah/ Jesus Christ Bless and guide you:thumbsup:

Patrick

 

[Lokadottir]

Death faces all us with GODS necessarily JUST and FAIR Judgment… I assure you God will not find it so funny.

May our Blessed Lord grant you sufficient grace to KNOW HIM!

Patrick

I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again my Gods sought me out. If Jesus loves me he can come get me.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Actually Tom, Christ did specify only ONE.

Here is but one of many examples:

Eph. 4:1-7
"I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, [2] With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. [3] Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [4] One body and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

[6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all. [7] But to every one of us is given grace, according to the measure of the giving of Christ"

God Bless you!

Patrick

Ever thought that Jesus might have a somewhat different view of just what “His Body, His Church” on earth is than us mere mortals?

Could be that Jesus’s “Body”, Jesus’s “Church” here on earth is not as confined as some think it to be.

Jesus did say, “No one comes to the Father except thru Me”, Jesus did NOT say, ‘No one comes to the Father except thru My Church’, did He?

Jesus did say, “No one comes to the Father except thru Me”, Jesus did NOT say, ‘No one comes to God except thru Me’, did He?

There may be only One Way to the Father but who knows how many ways there are to Jesus?

Who are we to tell God that God has to walk lock step in the way that we think that God should walk?

As far as the “One Baptism”, ever thought that Jesus might have insisted on being baptized by John because Jesus’s Baptism was the One Baptism?

Since Jesus is True God and True Man, ever thought that thru Jesus’s Baptism the whole human race was baptized?

We, human beings, like to put God in a “box” but no matter how nice we make that box, God fits into no “box”, God Is God, we are not God and even tho we are not God, God did become One of us.

 

[PJM]

=Lokadottir;11648984]I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again my Gods sought me out. If Jesus loves me he can come get me.

HE’S TRYING TO DO EXACTLY THAT AND YOU REFUSE TO OPEN THE DOOR OF YOUR MIND AND HEART AND LET HIM IN. GOD WILL NOT FORCE YOU!

God Bless you!
Patrick

There ARE over ONE BILLION CATHOLICS world wide
& about the same for non-Catholic Christians.

Ask me how you can know God exist:thumbsup:

 

[curious146]

Hello friends. Im new in this forum. I enjoy reading the discussions so i decided to join. I am not catholic.

To answer the question… Sin is rebellion against God. Sin therefore separates us from God. I believe everyone can agree to that. I think the more relevant question then is how do we get forgiven from our sin?

 

[Lokadottir]

HE’S TRYING TO DO EXACTLY THAT AND YOU REFUSE TO OPEN THE DOOR OF YOUR MIND AND HEART AND LET HIM IN. GOD WILL NOT FORCE YOU!

God Bless you!
Patrick

There ARE over ONE BILLION CATHOLICS world wide
& about the same for non-Catholic Christians.

Ask me how you can know God exist:thumbsup:

Firstly I love the smiley after you shouted at me.
I am incredibly unimpressed with his methods of getting my attention if he is. I don’t want him to force me. I don’t want a guy to kidnap me and carry me in a burlap sack to prom, but I do want him to ask me in person face to face, not whispered across the classroom.

How can I know? I’m curious.

 

[Rawb]

Firstly I love the smiley after you shouted at me.
I am incredibly unimpressed with his methods of getting my attention if he is. I don’t want him to force me. I don’t want a guy to kidnap me and carry me in a burlap sack to prom, but I do want him to ask me in person face to face, not whispered across the classroom.

How can I know? I’m curious.

You’ll know His because His ministers will condescendingly shout Bible verses at you on the internet, and try to impress you with how large their church is, apparently.