Question for our non-Catholic Friends please

[Servant19]

I think you might have been beaten to the punch on that one

He was a convert to Catholicism from atheism.

It is Catholic doctrine, derived from the ECFs (Early Church Fathers) that Jesus as the Logos of God (the Reason of God, the Word) is present within the conscience of every human person and that the Holy Spirit is universally at work outside the confines of the church:

:

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_19051991_dialogue-and-proclamatio_en.html

Vatican II taught this explicitly. It has been reiterated by numerous popes and Vatican documents that are available for interfaith initiatives in Catholic colleges and institutions all over the globe.

Is that not a “system” of sorts?

Thankyou Vouthon, again, wonderfully researched quotes and enlightening to read.

I do struggle however to read in these quotes any form of “system” by which each and every soul on this planet can be “accompanied” and “supported” on their path towards “seeing Christ in all things”…

How does the Catholic Church assist and walk “arm in arm” with my children to encourage and ensure a future where they are imbued with the grace and embrace of the Holy Spirit? I don’t think anyone from the Catholic Church has ever even talked to my children

How does the Catholic Church work to transform the functionality of a spiritually distorted and disillusioned neighbourhood in which I live in? I am yet to see, in the 10 years that I have lived here any evidence of any of the Catholic Churches nearby doing anything to **sustainably **resolve the generation after generation of lost souls who have “absolutely” no idea how to even start seeing “Christ in all things”…

The Aboriginal community here in Australia have been living under the guise of Christianity since 1770, and their problems are worsening, not improving. How can we accompany each and every soul towards this “Christ in all things” condition so that the cycle may end from one family line to another, so that they too, once transformed, can similarly transform others, walking arm in arm with them in their journey towards “Christ-like-ness”?

We now have a Catholic prime minister here. He has been in office for several months now. Can we expect any changes to the “spiritual condition” of the oppressed and downtrodden Aboriginal people, and sustainably so? Or are we simply superficially removing suffering here and there awaiting Christ to return so He can resolve the problem once and for all?

Is it not a sin (to bring this more into topic) to allow society to simply continue in this fashion?
Is there no other way that we as human beings can find sustainable solutions to this, with the application of the teachings of the Gospel, or is the Gospel in some way deficient (said with humble respect) to address these issues on a sustainable basis?

.

 

[Vouthon]

Dear brother Servant

Thank you for your thought provoking response, as ever I appreciate the time you give to these posts and the obvious effort put into them. I will try to answer the questions you raise to the best of my abilities.

How does the Catholic Church assist and walk “arm in arm” with my children to encourage and ensure a future where they are imbued with the grace and embrace of the Holy Spirit? I don’t think anyone from the Catholic Church has ever even talked to my children

That is true, because the church wouldn’t technically have any teaching authority your children. You are, after all, a Baha’i so the reference point of ethical formation for your children would be Baha’i classes perhaps run by your local spiritual assembly. I am a little confused as to what you mean here, dear friend. Could you please elaborate? Surely as a Baha’i you would not want the Catholic Church to exert any influence over your children’s spiritual formation? Shoghi Effendi, for example, had high praise for Catholic ethics and spirituality:

A Catholic background is an excellent introduction to the Faith, and one that Mrs. … should feel gratified for having had. Though doctrines of the church today are no longer needed – as the Father Himself has come, and thus fulfilled the mission of Christ the Son yet the foundation they lay of spiritual discipline, and their emphasis on spiritual values and adherence to moral laws, is very important and very close to our own beliefs." (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to two believers, August 17, 1941; Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 491)

Nevertheless, he discouraged Baha’i children from attending Catholic schools:

. If you feel convinced your son will really benefit from going to Father Flanagan’s school you could send him there. But in general we should certainly always avoid sending Bahá’í children to orthodox religious schools, especially Catholic, as the children receive the imprint of religious beliefs we as believers know are outdated and no longer for this age. He will especially pray for the solution of this problem.

(From a letter dated 30 May 1947 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer) [134]

How then would my Church even be ‘allowed’, under Baha’i regulations, to “walk arm in arm” with your children? Baha’is would see this as an unhealthy imposition of out-dated doctrines, no?

How does the Catholic Church work to transform the functionality of a spiritually distorted and disillusioned neighbourhood in which I live in? I am yet to see, in the 10 years that I have lived here any evidence of any of the Catholic Churches nearby doing anything to **sustainably **resolve the generation after generation of lost souls who have “absolutely” no idea how to even start seeing “Christ in all things”…

While I cannot speak for your local community, naturally, I do know that the church has many outreaches for ‘lost souls’. In my area it runs soup kitchens, shelters for the homeless and other charitable organisations. My own cousin runs a church-funded food service for down and outs. It is also a recognised fact that the Catholic Church is the largest non-governmental provider of health care and social services.

We are the only Christian denomination, that I know of, with a highly developed body of social doctrine.

 

[Vouthon]

We now have a Catholic prime minister here. He has been in office for several months now. Can we expect any changes to the “spiritual condition” of the oppressed and downtrodden Aboriginal people, and sustainably so? Or are we simply superficially removing suffering here and there awaiting Christ to return so He can resolve the problem once and for all?

The Catholic Church, while not believing that there will ever be a “perfect world”, is committed to the fight for earthly justice and civilizational progress towards an ever more humane and Christ-like society. Consider this apostolic letter from 1971 by Pope Paul VI:

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_letters/documents/hf_p-vi_apl_19710514_octogesima-adveniens_en.html

“…Within industrial society urbanization up” sets both the ways of life and the habitual structures of existence: the family, the neighborhood, and the very framework of the Christian community. Man is experiencing a new loneliness; it is not in the face of a hostile nature which it has taken him centuries to subdue, but in an anonymous crowd which surrounds him and in which he feels himself a stranger. Urbanization, undoubtedly an irreversible stage in the development of human societies, confronts man with difficult problems. How is he to master its growth, regulate its organization, and successfully accomplish its animation for the good of all?

In this disordered growth, new proletariats are born. They install themselves in the heart of the cities sometimes abandoned by the rich; they dwell on the outskirts - which become a belt of misery besieging in a still silent protest the luxury which blatantly cries out from centers of consumption and waste. Instead of favoring fraternal encounter and mutual aid, the city fosters discrimination and also indifference. It lends itself to new forms of exploitation and of domination whereby some people in speculating on the needs of others derive inadmissible profits. Behind the facades much misery is hidden, unsuspected even by the closest neighbors; other forms of misery spread where human dignity founders: delinquency, criminality, abuse of drugs and eroticism.

1. It is in fact the weakest who are the victims of dehumanizing living conditions, degrading for conscience and harmful for the family institution. The promiscuity of working people’s housing makes a minimum of intimacy impossible; young couples waiting in vain for a decent dwelling at a price they can afford are demoralized and their union can thereby even be endangered; youth escape from a home which is too confined and seek in the streets compensations and companionships which cannot be supervised. It is the grave duty of those responsible to strive to control this process and to give it direction.

**There is an urgent need to remake at the level of the street, of the neighborhood or of the great agglomerative dwellings the social fabric whereby man may be able to develop the needs of his personality. Centers of special interest and of culture must be created or developed at the community and parish levels with different forms of associations, recreational centers, and spiritual and community gatherings where the individual can escape from isolation and form anew fraternal relationships. **

1. To build up the city, the place where men and their expanded communities exist, to create new modes of neighborliness and relationships, to perceive an original application of social justice and to undertake responsibility for this collective future, which is foreseen as difficult, is a task in which Christians must share. To those who are heaped up in an urban promiscuity which becomes intolerable it is necessary to bring a message of hope. This can be done by brotherhood which is lived and by concrete justice…"

 

[Vouthon]

Is it not a sin (to bring this more into topic) to allow society to simply continue in this fashion?

Of course, which is why Pope Francis has become something close to a celebrity at the moment. He is one of the few figures on the world stage who truly touches the hearts of the multitudes, even earning the respect of atheist liberals, due to his unflinching advocacy on behalf the weak and oppressed who are “excluded” from a society enslaved to mammon.

In a sense, the Catholic Church - while it does not have the right to take the place of your children’s Baha’i education or spiritual formation and would never do so - sees all people as part of its universal mission.

See this section of the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

150. What is the mission of the Church?

767-769

The mission of the Church is to proclaim and establish the Kingdom of God begun by Jesus Christ among all peoples. The Church constitutes on earth the seed and beginning of this salvific Kingdom.

…

152. What does it mean to say that the Church is the universal sacrament of salvation?

774-776
780

This means that she is the sign and instrument both of the reconciliation and communion of all of humanity with God and of the unity of the entire human race.

…

168. Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836-838

All human beings in various ways belong to or are ordered to the Catholic unity of the people of God. Fully incorporated into the Catholic Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, are joined to the Church by the bonds of the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government and communion. The baptized who do not enjoy full Catholic unity are in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.

…

170. What is the bond that exists between the Catholic Church and non-Christian religions?

841-845

There is a bond between all peoples which comes especially from the common origin and end of the entire human race. The Catholic Church recognizes that whatever is good or true in other religions comes from God and is a reflection of his truth. As such it can prepare for the acceptance of the Gospel and act as a stimulus toward the unity of humanity in the Church of Christ.

In light of its universal mission, Pope Leo XIII noted in the 19th century:

“…The maternal love of the Catholic Church embraces all people…It is the industrious guardian of the teachings of its Founder [Jesus] who, by His words and those of the apostles, taught men the fraternal necessity which unites the whole world. From Him we recall that everybody has sprung from the same source, was redeemed by the same ransom, and is called to the same eternal happiness…”

- Pope Leo XIII, CATHOLICAE ECCLESIAE, 1890

And Pope Paul VI in the sixties:

"…The Church was founded by Jesus Christ to be the loving mother of the whole human family and minister to its salvation…The Church can regard no one as excluded from its motherly embrace, no one as outside the scope of its motherly care. It has no enemies except those who wish to make themselves such. Its catholicity is no idle boast. It was not for nothing that it received its mission to foster love, unity and peace among men…For the lover of truth discussion is always possible…Our aim must be to educate mankind to sentiments and policies which are opposed to violent and deadly conflicts and to foster just, rational, and peaceful relations between States. We will do Our utmost to promote harmonious relations and a spirit of cooperation between nations, and We will do so by proclaiming principles which represent the highest achievement of human thought, and such as are best calculated to allay the selfishness and greed from which war takes its rise. Nor, if We are allowed the opportunity, will We fail to use our good offices in settling national disputes on a basis of fraternity and honor. We do not forget that this service, besides being one dictated by love, is in fact a plain duty. It is a duty which the awareness of Our mission in the modern world renders all the more imperative when we consider the advances that have been made in theology and in international institutions. Our mission is to bring men together in mutual love through the power of that kingdom of justice and peace which Christ inaugurated by His coming into the world…Then we see another circle around us. This too is vast in extent, yet not so far away from us. It comprises first of all those men who worship the one supreme God, whom we also worship. We would mention first the Jewish people, who still retain the religion of the Old Testament, and who are indeed worthy of our respect and love.

Then we have those worshipers who adhere to other monotheistic systems of religion, especially the Moslem religion. We do well to admire these people for all that is good and true in their worship of God.

And finally we have the followers of the great Afro-Asiatic religions…we do not wish to turn a blind eye to the spiritual and moral values of the various non-Christian religions, for we desire to join with them in promoting and defending common ideals in the spheres of religious liberty, human brotherhood, education, culture, social welfare, and civic order. Dialogue is possible in all these great projects, which are our concern as much as theirs, and we will not fail to offer opportunities for discussion in the event of such an offer being favorably received in genuine, mutual respect…"

• ***ECCLESIAM SUAM ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PAUL VI , AUGUST 6, 1964 ***

 

[Servant19]

Dear brother Servant

Thank you for your thought provoking response, as ever I appreciate the time you give to these posts and the obvious effort put into them. I will try to answer the questions you raise to the best of my abilities.

That is true, because the church wouldn’t technically have any teaching authority your children. You are, after all, a Baha’i so the reference point of ethical formation for your children would be Baha’i classes perhaps run by your local spiritual assembly. I am a little confused as to what you mean here, dear friend. Could you please elaborate? Surely as a Baha’i you would not want the Catholic Church to exert any influence over your children’s spiritual formation? Shoghi Effendi, for example, had high praise for Catholic ethics and spirituality:

Nevertheless, he discouraged Baha’i children from attending Catholic schools:

How then would my Church even be ‘allowed’, under Baha’i regulations, to “walk arm in arm” with your children? Baha’is would see this as an unhealthy imposition of out-dated doctrines, no?

Dear brother Vouthon. You ask how would the Church be “allowed” to walk arm in arm with my children?

I give you one word my friend

COMMUNITY

We are one, the Church sees it, the Baha’i Faith sees it.
If you and I live in a common neighbourhood, would we not, given our oneness, and sacrificial devotion for one another, dialogue on a DAILY basis (or weekly, or even monthly, or at worst 3 monthly) on ways in which we can work together to provide a social environment which is conducive to attracting the glimmerings of hope provide by the Holy Spirit?

Baha’is are encouraged to work in 3 monthly cycles. At the start of each cycle we are encouraged to meet as many new people within our neighbourhood as possible so that we can foster bonds of mutual support to relieve immediate suffering and work towards a sustainable future whereby the Holy Spirit can enter ALL HOMES and transform the devotional character of the neighbourhood.

We are “organic” with our society, dear brother. Hope is fading by a disillusioned society, making it more and more difficult to embrace the infinite showers of grace that God has poured forth upon mankind through the Father and the Son. When society is “fallen” many individuals are “fallen” with it.

We must not think that the collective nature of society is separated from the individual. And we must not think that the individual can be completely immune from the fallen condition of society.

This forms a two-fold moral purpose for all religions. To save the individual and to save the community.

So what does a true community look like?

This is something we learn together.
We try new things together, in a humble posture of learning.
We pray together (you can come to my house and share a prayer with my children every single day, as we do in several Catholic homes in our neighbourhood)
We reflect together, with loving acknowledgment of our reality.
We study the Sacred Texts of all religions together so we can find gems of guidance that may assist the advancement of ourselves AND our community
We consult together, looking honestly at our strengths and weaknesses, and we
PLAN together, so we can continue to find efficient, creative and loving ways to bring others to “see Christ in all things”

I don’t get hello knocks on my door from Catholics. The only Catholics I have met on our street are the ones we have knocked on “their” door to say hello, to say we want to be of service to them, to say that we want to know what are the needs of the community/neighbourhood, and engage them in a process of dialogue and COMMUNITY-BUILDING.

So please, come along and talk to my children, let us dialogue together and find means, through our God-given faculties of spirit, intellect, creativity and humility to create a new heaven and a new earth.

.

 

[Vouthon]

We must not think that the collective nature of society is separated from the individual. And we must not think that the individual can be completely immune from the fallen condition of society.

Thank you for an excellent post Servant. I agree entirely and the church would not disagree with anything that you have just said. Catholicism is a community-based faith, as you will no doubt be aware of. The local diocesan structure with a monarchical episcopate has persisted since the second century AD.

Particularly what you have said above reminds me of these passages, the first from a 1939 encyclical by Venerable Pope Pius XII:

"…In the light of this unity of all mankind, which exists in law and in fact, individuals do not feel themselves isolated units, like grains of sand, but united by the very force of their nature and by their internal destiny, into an organic, harmonious mutual relationship which varies with the changing of times.

And the nations, despite a difference of development due to diverse conditions of life and of culture, are not destined to break the unity of the human race, but rather to enrich and embellish it by the sharing of their own peculiar gifts and by that reciprocal interchange of goods which can be possible and efficacious only when a mutual love and a lively sense of charity unite all the sons of the same Father…"

- Venerable Pope Pius XII, Summi Pontificatus (On the Unity of Human Society), October 20th 1939

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_20101939_summi-pontificatus_en.html

And the second is from the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium from Vatican II:

At all times and in every race God has given welcome to whosoever fears Him and does what is right.(85) God, however, does not make men holy and save them merely as individuals, without bond or link between one another. Rather has it pleased Him to bring men together as one people, a people which acknowledges Him in truth and serves Him in holiness…All men are called to belong to the new people of God. Wherefore this people, while remaining one and only one, is to be spread throughout the whole world and must exist in all ages, so that the decree of God’s will may be fulfilled. In the beginning God made human nature one and decreed that all His children, scattered as they were, would finally be gathered together as one…It follows that though there are many nations there is but one people of God, which takes its citizens from every race, making them citizens of a kingdom which is of a heavenly rather than of an earthly nature. All the faithful, scattered though they be throughout the world, are in communion with each other in the Holy Spirit, and so, he who dwells in Rome knows that the people of India are his members…All men are called to be part of this catholic unity of the people of God which in promoting universal peace presages it. And there belong to or are related to it in various ways, the Catholic faithful, all who believe in Christ, and indeed the whole of mankind, for all men are called by the grace of God to salvation…In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved…

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

 

[Servant19]

Thank you for an excellent post Servant. I agree entirely and the church would not disagree with anything that you have just said. Catholicism is a community-based faith, as you will no doubt be aware of. The local diocesan structure with a monarchical episcopate has persisted since the second century AD.

Particularly what you have said above reminds me of these passages, the first from a 1939 encyclical by Venerable Pope Pius XII:

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_20101939_summi-pontificatus_en.html

And the second is from the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium from Vatican II:

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

You are incredibly knowledgeable brother Vouthon.

I admire you greatly for your studious dedication to all Faiths.

I really believe with this knowledge you have the power to bring a new heaven and a new earth to many many communities, filled with disillusioned souls looking for something that can provide a glimmering of hope that their heart is with God.

I pray that you find an avenue to render such services unto God

God bless you!
(and I mean it! From the bottom of my heart…)
(I actually pray that you can share a Catholic prayer with my children one day…)

.

 

[Vouthon]

You are incredibly knowledgeable brother Vouthon.

I admire you greatly for your studious dedication to all Faiths.

I really believe with this knowledge you have the power to bring a new heaven and a new earth to many many communities, filled with disillusioned souls looking for something that can provide a glimmering of hope that their heart is with God.

I pray that you find an avenue to render such services unto God

God bless you!
(and I mean it! From the bottom of my heart…)

.

Bless you Servant! Your words are very kind indeed and eloquent as ever.

If any knowledge or power is to be accredited to myself, then please allow me to render it in turn to its actual source: Holy Mother Church. My beliefs are derived from the deposit of faith and the sacred tradition preserved from the apostles and guarded by the church, as it grows in understanding under the impulse of the Holy Spirit, through both the contemplation of believers and the teaching authority of the episcopacy.

God Bless you Servant. I admire Baha’is, such as yourself, for your ardent optimism and longing for peace on earth.