Question for our Protestant friends

[stevekehl]

My dear friends in Christ

Luke 2:11 “For, this day, is born to you a Saviour, who is Christ the Lord, in the city of David“.
Luke 19: 8-10 “But Zacheus standing, said to the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have wronged any man of any thing, I restore him fourfold. Jesus said to him: This day is salvation come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
Luke 23:43 “And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise” [Spoken from the Cross to the “good thief.]

Do these passages form the FOUNDATION for Protestant beliefs that Christ has done all that is necessary for “any and ALL believers” and that their salvation is by these passages assured?

I assume you are talking about OSAS, which is different from the assurance of salvation. If a satellite fell out of the sky and crashed into my my house right now would I go to heaven, I am sure I would. That is assurance of salvation, as contrasted with Muslim theology, which teaches no one can be sure they have proven themself worthy and therefore can’t be sure they will go to heaven. OSAS teaches that once someone says the prayer nothing can prevent them from going to heaven. Personally I don’t agree with that, but I do believe that salvation is not easily lost. God knows the heart, what we may consider someone turning their back on Christ, God may know to be a crisis of faith. None of us know our future, even those who say they no longer believe may return to the fold. I’ll leave the determination of lost salvation with God. I will, however, correct unscriptural behavior in church members who call themselves Christian. While I don’t believe that works earn us anything, I do believe that those who truly have Christ in their heart can’t help but help others, witness to the lost, serve the community of believers; but this is a matter of justification, not salvation.

God has thrown us a rope. He has provided the means to be saved. But I have to make the choice to either grab the rope and climb out or remain in the pit. Seems pretty simple to me.

This would be a great analogy if we could save ourselves by our own effort (climb out of the pit). Here’s what happens. We realize we can’t get out of this pit on our own, our efforts just dig us deeper. We cry out to Jesus to save us. He jumps in the pit, throws us out, gives us a high five, and says welcome to the family. Then in appreciation for saving us we try to be an example of His love to other people.

 

[JonNC]

This would be a great analogy if we could save ourselves by our own effort (climb out of the pit). Here’s what happens. We realize we can’t get out of this pit on our own, our efforts just dig us deeper. We cry out to Jesus to save us. He jumps in the pit, throws us out, gives us a high five, and says welcome to the family. Then in appreciation for saving us we try to be an example of His love to other people.

What prompts us to cry out to Jesus to save us? Is that a “work”?

Jon

 

[Porknpie]

Furthermore, most protestants do not believe in the literal resurrection of the body, but the continuity of the spirit.

Which ones?

 

[Porknpie]

I assume you are talking about OSAS, which is different from the assurance of salvation. If a satellite fell out of the sky and crashed into my my house right now would I go to heaven, I am sure I would.

The tract below explains the Catholic hope of salvation very well. Like St Paul, we can have hope but not false confidence and God alone is our judge.

catholic.com/tracts/assurance-of-salvation#.UHVpDZG9KSM

 

[traveler2013]

Which ones?

I think I sort of flubbed what I was trying to say lol

Most Protestants do not believe that Heaven or Hell are places where a physical, earthly body can exist. There are however, some fundamentalist sects that believe otherwise (such as some branches of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, not to be confused with your standard LDS). Most of these groups are relatively small and are considered “extreme” in their literally adherence to scripture.

On the spectrum of Protestantism, conservative groups are more fundamentalist and will tend to take the Bible literally while liberal sects are more metaphorical in their interpretations.

Generally, Protestants believe that a physical body will be regained at the end of days, but it will not be the same body that you had when you were alive–some speculate we will be remade in a “more true” image of God (where people get that, I have no idea).

 

[jerry_joseph]

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Do you get hungry or thirsty after taking communion? If you do either Jesus was lying or speaking symbolically, and I don’t believe He was lying.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
So is it those who eat the flesh and drink the blood who have eternal life, or those who believe on Christ God’s only son.
John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
The words are spirit and life, Jesus speaking spiritually? I don’t want to belabor this point so this is all I will say in response to your question. Instead, I have a question for you. If I believe in Jesus, put my faith and trust in Him, but don’t believe in transubstantiation will I go to hell?

I didn’t told that by receiving Eucharist alone , one can go to heaven. It is one among the basic requirements. Faith is also an another requirement. Bible clearly says that those who does not eat christ’s body and drink his blood will not go to heaven…

 

[mgteich]

Please provide support for this statement. I have checked Wesley, Ryrie and Evangelical and Catholics Together (several evangelicals and Catholics). I have taught in Baptist, Catholic and non-denomination churches.

umcmission.org/Find-Resources/Global-Worship-and-Spiritual-Growth/John-Wesley-Sermons/Sermon-137-On-the-Resurrection-of-the-Dead

I assure you that the doctrine of the resurrection of the body is not denied by most Protestants.

There are some, even among priests and bishops in my own Church. However, it is clear that they do NOT speak for the Church or for the leadership of these churches.

Furthermore, most protestants do not believe in the literal resurrection of the body, but the continuity of the spirit.

 

[mgteich]

I agree that mankind has had difficulty understanding God’s teaching on grace and free will.

umc.org/site/c.lwL4KnN1LtH/b.2310047/

There are at least THREE sets of views.

1. One is to believe that Jesus chose the elect before the foundation of the world and those born in this age are predestined to heaven or hell based on that decision. This is the 5-point Calvinist view.
2. The second view (which has many forms) understands that God’s gift can be rejected or at least be given back; that is, we have the God-given will to accept or turn away. We can have assurance of where we are now, and can have Hope that we will not throw away the gift in the future.
3. The third view is to have man make the choice to seek God’s help and for God to grant it. For me, this is the teaching of Pelagius, rejected by the early Church.

I stand with Wesley. I will not accept that any man is created in this age destined for hell without having any way to avoid damnation.

I want to post in support of Lyle on this issue. Salvation is the free gift of God. If I have to choose it, it is no longer free. I believe that redemption is costly and nothing we do can affect it–not even making a decision. I also believe that God is sovereign and always gets His way. If He wants to redeem somebody, there is no way that person can choose against Him.

I just can’t imagine the creator of the universe sitting on His throne wringing His hands and saying, “I really wanted Lyle in heaven, but he chose against me. Now what do I do?” No way. God cannot be thwarted by man’s puny “free will”.

 

[jerry_joseph]

Eternal life for us is accessed via sola fide, faith alone. You don’t have to take the Eucharist to be saved in Christ, it is merely an outward representation of your salvation. To us, eternal life isn’t something you can “earn”. There’s no checklist of things you must do to enter heaven and gain eternal life. Furthermore, most protestants do not believe in the literal resurrection of the body, but the continuity of the spirit.

Bible says about the mandatory requirements for salvation.

1. Faith:" And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:40

2.Eucharist:“Truly, I say to you, if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. The one who eats my flesh and drinks my blood live with eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:53

1. Good deeds: “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ “Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ “Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Mathew 25:41-46…

Here bible mentions that good deeds are mandatory requirement for getting salvation.

1. Baptism: The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; (Mark:16:16).
2. Mercy of God:“He saved us, not because of good deeds we may have done but for the sake of his own mercy.” (Titus 3:5).

For getting lords mercy we want to confess our sins…“If we confess our sins, he who is faithful and just will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all wickedness.” 1: John 1:9

That means for salvation we need all basic requirements . Not faith alone or baptism alone or Eucharistic alone or good deeds alone… But it is combined of all these…Faith is the primary requirement and God’s mercy is the final requirement which help us to get salvation.

 

[jerry_joseph]

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Do you get hungry or thirsty after taking communion? If you do either Jesus was lying or speaking symbolically, and I don’t believe He was lying.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
So is it those who eat the flesh and drink the blood who have eternal life, or those who believe on Christ God’s only son.
John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
The words are spirit and life, Jesus speaking spiritually? I don’t want to belabor this point so this is all I will say in response to your question. Instead, I have a question for you. If I believe in Jesus, put my faith and trust in Him, but don’t believe in transubstantiation will I go to hell?

Do you get hungry or thirsty after taking communion? If you do either Jesus was lying or speaking symbolically, and I don’t believe He was lying.

Yes. Jesus is the bread of life . We Traditional christians (Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Churches ) believe that Eucharist is Jesus himself. Here Jesus speaks about spiritual thirst and hunger. Not thirst of physical body. If it is as per your claims,then why you are feel hungry and thirsty, even after born again?. That means you didn’t received Jesus .

If I believe in Jesus, put my faith and trust in Him, but don’t believe in transubstantiation will I go to hell?

Yes. Because bible clearly says that with faith alone one could not go to heaven. Deeds are also important.

“all might be judged according to their works.” Revelation 20:13

“ Therefore, my dearest friends, as you always obeyed me while I was with you, even more now that I am far from you, continue working out your salvation “with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12

“ What a cloud of innumerable witnesses surround us! So let us be rid of every encumbrance, and especially of sin, to persevere in running the race marked out before us.”

Here a question arises , If we are already saved by faith, then why it requires to work to preserving that.

“ I do not believe I have already reached the goal, nor do I consider myself perfect, but I press on till I conquer Christ Jesus, as I have already been conquered by him. No, brothers and sisters, I do not claim to have claimed the prize yet. I say only this: forgetting what is behind me, I race forward and run towards the goal, my eyes on the prize to which God has called us from above in Christ Jesus. Let all of us who claim to be perfect have the same way of thinking, but if there is something on which you differ, God will make it clear to you.”

If Apostle St Paul is not claiming that he received the prize (Salvation) yet. Then how you can blindly say you are saved just because you have faith?.

“Nothing unclean will enter it, or anyone who does what is evil and false but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.” Revelation 20:13

“Do not be surprised at this, for the hour is coming when the dead will leave their graves at the sound of his voice: those who did good will come forth to life; and those who did evil will come forth to judgement.” John 5: 28-29

“ When the count of their sins has been drawn up, in terror they will come, and their crimes, confronting them, will accuse them “ Wisdom 4:20

Here Also it is mentioned that no evil doers will enter heaven ( Points towards importance of deeds, not only faith).

Faith is the primary requirement. With the faith we should do good deeds (the fruit of faith) , should lead a good life , participating in sacraments of church, prayerful life. Only then we will be saved. Also nobody will not receive grace from sacraments if he doesn’t have any faith. So faith is the primary requirement. But faith alone will not work.

 

[stevekehl]

Yes. Jesus is the bread of life . We Traditional christians (Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Churches ) believe that Eucharist is Jesus himself. Here Jesus speaks about spiritual thirst and hunger. Not thirst of physical body. If it is as per your claims,then why you are feel hungry and thirsty, even after born again?. That means you didn’t received Jesus .

I know He is speaking of spiritual hunger and thirst, that was my point. Jesus is saying that He is spiritual food, not literal food and drink; that He nourishes and refreshes the soul like food and drink nourish and refresh the flesh. Might I add a thought here? In the Psalms David wrote that God would not let His Holy One see corruption (16:10) prophesying about Jesus resurrection. But if the bread and wine transubstantiate, doesn’t it decay in our bodies?

Yes. Because bible clearly says that with faith alone one could not go to heaven. Deeds are also important.

Respect for looking up all those verses, but I’m not talking about works. No one is denying works are important, we are required to acknowledge God before men and our works on God’s behalf testify to our faith.

Here a question arises , If we are already saved by faith, then why it requires to work to preserving that.
“ I do not believe I have already reached the goal, nor do I consider myself perfect, but I press on till I conquer Christ Jesus, as I have already been conquered by him. No, brothers and sisters, I do not claim to have claimed the prize yet. I say only this: forgetting what is behind me, I race forward and run towards the goal, my eyes on the prize to which God has called us from above in Christ Jesus. Let all of us who claim to be perfect have the same way of thinking, but if there is something on which you differ, God will make it clear to you.”
If Apostle St Paul is not claiming that he received the prize (Salvation) yet. Then how you can blindly say you are saved just because you have faith?.

Since you asked.
Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Romans 3:27 Then where is the boasting? It was excluded. Through what law? Of works? No, but through a Law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, (Mercy is when we don’t get what we deserve, so even if we do works of righteousness we still need God’s mercy)
Heb 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. (*Notice works aren’t mentioned as part of the foundation)/I])

Here Also it is mentioned that no evil doers will enter heaven ( Points towards importance of deeds, not only faith).

Name a person who has faith and does evil. Like I said, works testify to faith. As shown here:
Matthew 5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.
Titus1:16 They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

Faith is the primary requirement. With the faith we should do good deeds (the fruit of faith), should lead a good life , participating in sacraments of church, prayerful life. Only then we will be saved. Also nobody will not receive grace from sacraments if he doesn’t have any faith. So faith is the primary requirement. But faith alone will not work.

Your zeal is commendable. I pray your relationship with God grows only deeper and stronger. But don’t get too caught up in works.
This was a good post. Thanks and God Bless You.*

 

[Porknpie]

I know He is speaking of spiritual hunger and thirst, that was my point. Jesus is saying that He is spiritual food, not literal food and drink; that He nourishes and refreshes the soul like food and drink nourish and refresh the flesh. Might I add a thought here? In the Psalms David wrote that God would not let His Holy One see corruption (16:10) prophesying about Jesus resurrection. But if the bread and wine transubstantiate, doesn’t it decay in our bodies?

Steve,

The deposit of faith is consistent, both the oral Tradition and the written Word of God which came from that Tradition. Christ taught his apostles that the he would give them heavenly food, foreshadowed by the heavenly manna in the OT. The apostles taught their successors and so on. That we receive his resurrected body and blood is reflected in scripture and is seen by the early church writings including St Ignatius who was a disciple of St. John.

Third century and earlier quotes below. You can read later quotes on scripturecatholic.com.

Question, can you find any quotes from the early church where the Church believed the bread and wine was symbolic? This is important because this same Catholic Church canonized scripture with the understanding of the Real Presence. Scripture needs to be understood in light of the Tradition upon which it came…

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

“For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).

“[T]he bread over which thanks have been given is the body of their Lord, and the cup His blood…” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, IV:18,4 (c. A.D. 200).

“He acknowledged the cup (which is a part of the creation) as his own blood, from which he bedews our blood; and the bread (also a part of creation) he affirmed to be his own body, from which he gives increase to our bodies.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:2,2 (c. A.D. 200).

“For the blood of the grape–that is, the Word–desired to be mixed with water, as His blood is mingled with salvation. And the blood of the Lord is twofold. For there is the blood of His flesh, by which we are redeemed from corruption; and the spiritual, that by which we are anointed. And to drink the blood of Jesus, is to become partaker of the Lord’s immortality; the Spirit being the energetic principle of the Word, as blood is of flesh. Accordingly, as wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man. And the one, the mixture of wine and water, nourishes to faith; while the other, the Spirit, conducts to immortality. And the mixture of both–of the water and of the Word–is called Eucharist, renowned and glorious grace; and they who by faith partake of it are sanctified both in body and soul.” Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 2 (ante A.D. 202).

“Then, having taken the bread and given it to His disciples, He made it His own body, by saying, ‘This is my body,’ that is, the figure of my body. A figure, however, there could not have been, unless there were first a veritable body…He did not understand how ancient was this figure of the body of Christ, who said Himself by Jeremiah: ‘I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter, and I knew not that they devised a device against me, saying, Let us cast the tree upon His bread,’ which means, of course, the cross upon His body. And thus, casting light, as He always did, upon the ancient prophecies, He declared plainly enough what He meant by the bread, when He called the bread His own body. He likewise, when mentioning the cup and making the new testament to be sealed ‘in His blood,’ affirms the reality of His body. For no blood can belong to a body which is not a body of flesh. If any sort of body were presented to our view, which is not one of flesh, not being fleshly, it would not possess blood. Thus, from the evidence of the flesh, we get a proof of the body, and a proof of the flesh from the evidence of the blood.” Tertullian, Against Marcion, 40 (A.D. 212).

“For because Christ bore us all, in that He also bore our sins, we see that in the water is understood the people, but in the wine is showed the blood of Christ…Thus, therefore, in consecrating the cup of the Lord, water alone cannot be offered, even as wine alone cannot be offered. For if any one offer wine only, the blood of Christ is dissociated from us; but if the water be alone, the people are dissociated from Christ; but when both are mingled, and are joined with one another by a close union, there is completed a spiritual and heavenly sacrament. Thus the cup of the Lord is not indeed water alone, nor wine alone, unless each be mingled with the other; just as, on the other hand, the body of the Lord cannot be flour alone or water alone, unless both should be united and joined together and compacted in the mass of one bread; in which very sacrament our people are shown to be made one, so that in like manner as many grains, collected, and ground, and mixed together into one mass, make one bread; so in Christ, who is the heavenly bread, we may know that there is one body, with which our number is joined and united.” Cyprian, To Caeilius, Epistle 62(63):13 (A.D. 253).

 

[SteveVH]

I know He is speaking of spiritual hunger and thirst, that was my point. Jesus is saying that He is spiritual food, not literal food and drink;

“For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.” (John 6:55)

that He nourishes and refreshes the soul like food and drink nourish and refresh the flesh.

Yes, he nourishes and refreshes the soul when we consume his true body and blood which is real food and real drink.

Might I add a thought here? In the Psalms David wrote that God would not let His Holy One see corruption (16:10) prophesying about Jesus resurrection. But if the bread and wine transubstantiate, doesn’t it decay in our bodies?

You must remember that it is no longer bread and wine. It is the body and blood of Christ. No he does not decay in our bodies because he is alive. We are consuming his gorified body and blood which cannot decay.

 

[Caliburn]

“He that believes on the Son has everlasting life”

 

[stevekehl]

"For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink." (John 6:55)

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Jesus is speaking of spiritual matters, not physical matters. Therefor the meaning is not literal.

Yes, he nourishes and refreshes the soul when we consume his true body and blood which is real food and real drink.

This contradicts Jesus statement that the Spirit is life and the flesh counts for nothing.

You must remember that it is no longer bread and wine. It is the body and blood of Christ. No he does not decay in our bodies because he is alive. We are consuming his glorified body and blood which cannot decay.

If it is not digested and absorbed then how does it nourish and refresh? Literal flesh and blood are digested and absorbed.

 

[Porknpie]

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Jesus is speaking of spiritual matters, not physical matters. Therefor the meaning is not literal.
This contradicts Jesus statement that the Spirit is life and the flesh counts for nothing.
If it is not digested and absorbed then how does it nourish and refresh? Literal flesh and blood are digested and absorbed.

Hi Steve,

Please respond to post number 50.

I’m looking for quotes from early church writers that support your biblical view of John 6. The bible has to be understood in light of the Tradition from which it came…what did the Church believe: The Church believed in the Real Presence…

There is only one path here…however, suggest another one if you’d like

Jesus taught the Real Presence to the apostles…the wine and bread becoming his real flesh and blood
The apostles then taught their successors (this includes John teaching St Ingatius)
Their successors taught their successors who taught their successors

This is Tradition. This Tradition is reflected it the Church writings in post 50. From this tradition came the bible including John putting his oral treaching into the written Gospel. Tradition and the sacred written Word of God are consistent.

You can believe Jesus was speaking symbolically but then you are following a man made tradition that started in the 16th century.

God Bless,

Pork

 

[SteveVH]

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Jesus is speaking of spiritual matters, not physical matters. Therefor the meaning is not literal.

Obviously Jesus is not speaking of his flesh since I think you would agree that Jesus’ flesh does, indeed, give life to the world: “The bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.” (John 6:51)

Jesus is speaking of the difference between being enlightened by the Spirit as opposed to human reason (the flesh) which is incapable of understanding this great mystery. The Apostles did not understand through human reason at all. The believed because of the one who told them because Christ’s words are spirit and life.

This contradicts Jesus statement that the Spirit is life and the flesh counts for nothing.

Again, Christ’s flesh counts for everything.

If it is not digested and absorbed then how does it nourish and refresh? Literal flesh and blood are digested and absorbed.

What we consume is Christ’s glorified body. Christ said that “The bread that I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.” He was not inviting them to come and gnaw on his arm. It is Christ’s glorified body that is hidden under the appearance of bread and wine.

 

[Porknpie]

Obviously Jesus is not speaking of his flesh since I think you would agree that Jesus’ flesh does, indeed, give life to the world: "The bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh." (John 6:51)

Jesus is speaking of the difference between being enlightened by the Spirit as opposed to John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life;** the** flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. reason (the flesh) which is incapable of understanding this great mystery. The Apostles did not understand through human reason at all. The believed because of the one who told them because Christ’s words are spirit and life.

Again, Christ’s flesh counts for everything.

Great Steve. To your point, Christ goes from talking about “my flesh” to “the flesh”.

Christ’s apostles would come to understand this. They broke bread, prayed and believed Christ’s words that it was literally his resurrected flesh and blood that they were receiving. They then passed this teaching on to their successors and they to theirs. This is Tradition … Which is reflected in the words of John 6 and in the writings of the early church, noted in post #50.

Brandt Pitre’s book, Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist is a terrific read. In it, he talks about how the Jewish people were awaiting the Messiah…believing that the time was near. Many believed that he would again bring manna from heaven. Real heavenly food. Christ came bringing heavenly food in his body and blood. This is one reason why Jewish converts so readily accepted the Real Presence as Christ taught.

Post #50 makes it clear that the early Church understood this …and the bible, John needs to be understood in this light.

 

[billt9]

Eternal life for us is accessed via sola fide, faith alone. You don’t have to take the Eucharist to be saved in Christ, it is merely an outward representation of your salvation. To us, eternal life isn’t something you can “earn”. There’s no checklist of things you must do to enter heaven and gain eternal life. Furthermore, most protestants do not believe in the literal resurrection of the body, but the continuity of the spirit.

That is this Methodist’s view except for the last sentence. The Bible teaches literal resurrection of the body; if there is no resurrection, there is no Christianity. 1 Cor. 15:17. But, of course, it is a changed body – a resurrection body, as Paul makes clear.1 Cor. 15:37-57. What are the details? Well, Paul said “how foolish” to those types of questions. 1 Cor. 15:36. It’s a better body (1 Cor. 15:37-57); that’s good enough for me.

And to comment on the debate in other posts in this thread about faith v works, the Pope said Luther was not contrary to to teaching of the Catholic Church if works were not denigrated, Protestants (most of them I know anyway) believe that all saved Christians (a redundant term} will produce good works. So their faith will not be dead because they WILL produce good works. Eph. 2:10.

Their works are the result of salvation (free grace) not the cause. After all, there are many persons who do good works but by self declaration are not Christians – some even describe them self as loathing Christianity and that Christ is a fable — and they obviously are not Christians (despite their good works) and are under God;s wrath/condemnation. John 3:18; 3:36;15:23; Matthew 10:33.

 

[billt9]

I just can’t imagine the creator of the universe sitting on His throne wringing His hands and saying, “I really wanted Lyle in heaven, but he chose against me. Now what do I do?” No way. God cannot be thwarted by man’s puny “free will”.

We can thwart his will if God allows us to, He allowed Adam and Eve, and he allows everyone of us to accept or reject his gift of eternal life in Jesus Christ.